For those who don`t get the problem with red scrips...

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

(..) All this wouldn't be so bad if I ONLY fished, but I'm still trying to get through Alexander, run dungeons with friends, level crafters from time to time, AND I'm trying to work on a comprehensive lvl 60 MCH guide (..) Frankly, they've got it set up so that only the players who exclusively craft and gather have any hope of getting the high end items for quite a long time to come, and even then many of them won't be getting them without a lot of free time on their hands.

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Thats exactly the Problem Square Enix is facing!
But how to solve that?

Other games try it with "upgrading" to make older or just other items useful -> trading botanist ressources to miner ressources or vise versa. Another methode is to use one global currency and let players get it through the game, varying the buy cost for the items then makes sure you cant get all at once and the players have freedome to choose what to buy first -> look at fenrir mount and MGP. Lets have a look at materia: why we cant upgrade 2 grade 1 to one grade 2, 2 grade 2 to one grad 3 and so on -> best example is Diablo from Blizzard.

In Fact we have too many from everything, but nothing really good. you cant buy ravena weapons with MGP, you cant buy a house with tomestones, you cant buy tomestones with gil... all those, there is not a single connection! you are FORCED to do every content alone - MGP cant get outside (not even trading gil to MGP or such)....

Its the idea that you have to do the content in order to advance in the content.

Now we effectively have 3 separate endgames:
1. Combat classes have dungeons, Alex NM, Alex Savage, which reward Law and Eso, which allow you to reliably obtain the gear you need to further progress.
2. Crafters and Gatherers, who are the only sources of their mutual gear and materials, but severely lacking a progressive endgame.
3. The Gold Saucer, Chocobo Racing, and Triple Triad, all pretty much self sufficient.

The only occasional intersection between these 3 is glamors.

As for why the Crafter and Gatherer end of things is so bad and time consuming... I have an idea.

For a Combat class a typical week consists of doing Experts for Eso, Alex NM for token drops, and some Alex Savage. Experts take 30 minutes, and Alex NM lets say takes 20 minutes per floor.
So 30x5 for Experts, and 20x4x4 (20 per floor, 4 floors, 2 drops split among 8 people), that comes to 470 minutes, or about 8 hours.

But in the case of Crafters and Gatherers you are actually playing TWO classes, so each class should do the same 8 hours as the Combat class! Now we have 16 hours per week.
If we then throw in the fact that the average person spends 10 minutes in DF, then its 40x5+30x4x4 x2 = 22.7 hours per week! It all adds up beautifully!

Sound logic right? But the 8 hours of Adventuring for your weekly loot is a whole hell of a lot more fun than the 22.7 hours that someone has to put in for the Crafter/Gatherer route.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Sound logic right?

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Cant find RNG in your calculation, and beside: you have to level at least one fighter class to level 60 because entering ishgard, have fun trying to "main" a crafter.

Because of math, Square Enix brought the red tomes shit out - life is not math!
If you say 2h a day, then you have to calculate with average numbers and possibilities too, its not a fixed number written in stone! You math lacks a lot of depth

If you take time to prep beforehand, crafting scrips aren't to bad to obtain, though that's the thing, one thing you can do with red scrips that you can't do with esoteric is plan ahead, if your inventory allows it.

So there is crafting, 14-16, 450/x=how many you need with a 5-10 margin of error.

So we can do the flat rate

450/14=33 synths
450/15=30 synths
450/16=29 synths

Honestly speaking issue one, the marginly improve in scrips gains is pretty lame they really should entice players to want to go higher not make it s +1 +2 boost for going above and beyond the average needed.

Honestly it's not hard to hit 4k+ with NQ mats but then it's like, oh you want +1 well that's going to be 5.5k or do you want +2 instead that's gonna be 7100. There is pretty much no incentive to care enough to risk your synth beyond 4k, once you get 4k just finish it.

Now a simple fix there, 14/21/28 those would be more enticing rewards because now if a player could hit 5.5k consistantly they would be looking at:

450/21=22 synths and if they were really good and could get 7.1k+ consistnatly would have:

450/28= 17 synths

Now look at it as a whole, 4k=33, 5.5k=22 and 7.1k=17, that's what we call incentive and something to actually appreciate/look forward to as ones gear becomes better. Since as a player I see the current method and think, welp I can easily do this with NQ materials and my current gear that's barely melded, I have no need/desire to go past my current gear because it's not going to aid my process of obtaining red scrips because the abilities I rely on are reliant on an RNG that my gear does not influence.

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On the other spectrum though DOL isn't as bad, the reason for this is because the more you have leveled the easier it becomes, DOH doesn't have a similar luxury unless you consider the idea of well x is cheaper to make than y it's a very negligible variable.

Now onto DOL they have a good window of options:

1 DOL(Botanist/Miner)=2 12hr unspoiled nodes and 1 legendary Node
2 DOL(Botanist/MInder)=4 12hr unspoiled nodes and 2 legendary nodes
All 3=4 12hr, 2 legendary and 2 fishing holes

To simplify it we'll just use the 8/10(reward for fisher) variables but basically in your journey to 450 you are most likely given the likely scenario of

1DOL without legendary=4 turn in min, 6 in middle and max of 8, for totals of 32/48/64 per turn in for a total of 450/x/y/z=15/10/8hrs to cap granted odds of always getting lucky to gain 4 each rotation is highly unlikley however I used that as an example because of this important aspect.

8hrs is possible when you have both Botanist and Miner, sure some days may have turn ins that share a timer however there is no decay in what you gain so if your inv allows it you could still stock up on mats in a given rotation and then wait for ability to turn in, So let's say with Botanist Green and Miner ore you can score a pretty much guaranteed 2 every node with discern/impulse rotation for a total of 64 per hour, if you fish you may be able to add another 20-40 scrips per hour.

In all honesty though I think people are only feeling overwhelmed because of how much they rushed, yes DOW/DOM have more options, but they also don't have the ability to prep beforehand and ready a turn in, they can't hold a single inventory slot that say "Defeated dungeon for 8 tomes" and turn that in when the cap resets.

But I will agree some options would be nice like a daily that could be done, it wouldn't even need to be a lot, they could just havea daily that grants +12 red scrips from gather and craft by handing in an item that would normally only give base. Basically it could be an incentive that encourages you to at least turn in one a day so that you can get the boost.

So with DOL if we say 7 days in a week, and if in each of those 7 days the first turn in is granted a +12 boost for 20 then you get a jump of 140 which saves you from having to turn in 10 collectibles for that week.

ON the DOH end +12 boost from there would grant 26x7 for 182 which would save you from having to turn in 6 turn in for that week. Something like that does add up quite easily, no longer would you think well I should get it done on the first day but rather you could stock up on some, wait for day change, if it's one you don't have you can obtain it to get the +12 boost and overall you save time and you don't burn yourself out by trying to get it done on the first day.

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So yes, there is a grind, yes the current method only offers one way of doing and yes there are ways they could look into at least allowing people to save time if they don't rush trying to get it done in one day.

With what was mentioned above

-Gather 10 less items=
--For 1 DOL 2 and half less hours
--For 2 DOL, 1 and a half less hours

-Craft 6 less items=
--27 synths rather than 33 synths

Those little variables add up and maybe the devs will take note and implement something like this to encourage players to take their time doing it daily rather than zooming to get ti done as quick as possible.

Much like how people don't spam getting esoterics done in one day because expert roulette and trials offer a way to really ease the time it takes to obtain said tomes hopefully they can implement something similar for DOL/DOH.

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Originally Posted by Airget

If you take time to prep beforehand, crafting scrips aren't to bad to obtain, though that's the thing, one thing you can do with red scrips that you can't do with esoteric is plan ahead, if your inventory allows it.

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There is no need to plan ahead for esoterics. I'm at 170/450 now. I could do a mere 7 dungeons (3.5 hours) and I would be capped.

In fact it only takes 6 days of roulette, which is 6 dungeons or 3 hours total; to cap esoterics. Why would you compare the 2 at all?

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Originally Posted by Airget

Much like how people don't spam getting esoterics done in one day because expert roulette and trials offer a way to really ease the time it takes to obtain said tomes hopefully they can implement something similar for DOL/DOH.

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Most people I know do spam them. After all you also get law from them.

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Originally Posted by Nghthawk

OMG what a EXCELLENT idea, SE should hire you to make this EXCELLENT idea into reality for an upcoming patch/expansion, sheer genius with this idea. +10000000000000000000000000000000000000

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Sorry to intrude and be off topic but just had to say that is a friggin hilarious signature XD!

sorry~
Sorry!

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Originally Posted by Airget

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Excellent post. Although, I would coin in the viewpoint of "feeling rushed" shouldn't always be the developer's responsibility. I would say part of it, sure but I would say part is human nature to have instant gratification.

Don't give SE bad ideas.

Add red scrips to the temple leve that require master book recipes. This would make temple leve actually useful and allow you to do them once a day, and 2 times every few days. Or cap out right away if you have 100 leve sitting around and haven't been able to play all week.

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Originally Posted by DarthBuzzer

You seem to be under the assumption that favor mats are easy to get when they are in fact compared to Thavnairan Silks in rarity. A Single piece of crafted i170 or i180 gear takes more time, effort, and money than a i210 piece.

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You seem to be under the assumption that it is easy to get an i210 piece. No one in the entire world has step foot in A4. People do, however, have i180 crafted main hands. So I'm going to say that something that has been done is easier than something that has never been done.