supervirus more impactful than proshell

That's only with specific settings. If I remember correctly, this is the case when you're parsing simulated data (ie: disabling certain methods/options)

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

If both WHM and SCH are on same gear/skill and trying equally hard, I don't believe SCH and WHM get the same HP/S numbers on a fight like T13.
SCH has a easy time inflating parser numbers with succor shields in light to medium healing intensive fights.
But in T13 in particular the damage to the party is too high for that, medica and cure3 healbombs should heavily outheal the SCH.

There is some kind of flaw in your parser or math, or your team has been doing one perfect try and one ultra messed up.

How can both of you put out 1,2K (= 2,4 overall)(HP/S in my parsers is already filtering out overhealing, I suppose in yours too) on the one fight,
and the next fight you only do 500 (=1,7K overall) and still survive?
That would mean your party took close to 1K Damage per Second less on the second try.

Something seems fishy there.

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It's actually not fishy. We both we're sitting at 1.2K HPS while doing T13 progression at pretty close to i130. We both had 60% over heal because the fight was new to both of us at the time and we were both treating it like we were solo healing until we could find the natural synergies between us and determine where and when we could heal. Once we got over that initial hump and I made the switch to Selene since I knew my WHM could handle most of the AoE heals himself, we got our combined HPS down to 1.6K to 1.7K (SCH = 500, WHM = 1.1-1.2K) and our total overheal down to about 30%-40% (depending on how much accidental damage our DPS took).

With that being said, I don't know the nuances of the parser and what it can and cannot pick up with HPS as, well, I also understand HPS is a very tricky stat in terms of gauging any sort of performance. Instead, we used it as a means to find where we can find efficiencies and tune our heals according.

What frightens me, and as I've mentioned before, HPS isn't a way to determine a person's skill - it's a way to determine a healer's healing potential. I should never, ever, have ever been able to, as a SCH, match the healing potential of a WHM who slightly over gears me. If that's a flaw with the parser in question - I can accept that and move on happily. If that's not a flaw with the parser, then I think we need to rethink the balance of between a WHM and a SCH. Of course I would prefer it to be the former than the latter and be proven wrong entirely. I'm just basing my opinion on the observations I've seen with my own group.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

It doesn't, also every HoT counts as overhealing for some reason even if the target isn't at full hp. Which makes hps a complete useless "stat" when it comes to measure healer performance since one can just sit on the corner and spam heal on themselves to get a huge amount of hps.

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I just tested both A.C.T and FFXIVAPP. Both count hots only as overheal if its really overheal (correct), at least for myself.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

It's actually not fishy. We both we're sitting at 1.2K HPS while doing T13 progression at pretty close to i130. We both had 60% over heal because the fight was new to both of us at the time and we were both treating it like we were solo healing until we could find the natural synergies between us and determine where and when we could heal. Once we got over that initial hump and I made the switch to Selene since I knew my WHM could handle most of the AoE heals himself, we got our combined HPS down to 1.6K to 1.7K (SCH = 500, WHM = 1.1-1.2K) and our total overheal down to about 30%-40% (depending on how much accidental damage our DPS took).

With that being said, I don't know the nuances of the parser and what it can and cannot pick up with HPS as, well, I also understand HPS is a very tricky stat in terms of gauging any sort of performance. Instead, we used it as a means to find where we can find efficiencies and tune our heals according.

What frightens me, and as I've mentioned before, HPS isn't a way to determine a person's skill - it's a way to determine a healer's healing potential. I should never, ever, have ever been able to, as a SCH, match the healing potential of a WHM who slightly over gears me. If that's a flaw with the parser in question - I can accept that and move on happily. If that's not a flaw with the parser, then I think we need to rethink the balance of between a WHM and a SCH. Of course I would prefer it to be the former than the latter and be proven wrong entirely. I'm just basing my opinion on the observations I've seen with my own group.

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My tests with the parsers show otherwise about HP/S and overhealing.
I only seem get those numbers if I "overuse" succor and I suspect the shields may be the reason. Maybe you use another parser unknown to me but I still doubt your conclusion about WHM vs. SCH HP/S

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

I just tested both A.C.T and FFXIVAPP. Both count hots only as overheal if its really overheal (correct), at least for myself.

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Went ahead and tried it myself and it's correct, they actually fixed. Like 2 months ago every single HoT from regen and medica II would count as overheal.

I'm not trying to undermine the strength of SCH, and of course I might be wrong, but I can't imagine that situation in Turn13 given both have the same skill and capable group.
Still, like Grishlain said HP/S (and I would say overheal to an extend) is not really a factor to judge by. Even after counting out possible parser errors it's heavily reliant on overall group performance as well and you can only heal as much as damage is incoming.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

It doesn't, also every HoT counts as overhealing for some reason even if the target isn't at full hp. Which makes hps a complete useless "stat" when it comes to measure healer performance since one can just sit on the corner and spam heal on themselves to get a huge amount of hps.

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Every HoT as overhealing isn't quite correct, but I agree with the rest of your post. On a parser, encounter hps is a useless stat. It's not even like DPS, where more is necessarily better. HoTs do inflate it as well, but that's true for both jobs. Gishlain's stat of about 1.2k... That's close to what my group gets. But, again, it's not a meaningful number.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

What frightens me, and as I've mentioned before, HPS isn't a way to determine a person's skill - it's a way to determine a healer's healing potential. I should never, ever, have ever been able to, as a SCH, match the healing potential of a WHM who slightly over gears me. If that's a flaw with the parser in question - I can accept that and move on happily. If that's not a flaw with the parser, then I think we need to rethink the balance of between a WHM and a SCH. Of course I would prefer it to be the former than the latter and be proven wrong entirely. I'm just basing my opinion on the observations I've seen with my own group.

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WHM still has top throughput. You'll see similar numbers because of 1. HoT inflations (very powerful over time, but not immediately) and 2. It's the whole encounter. Potential HP/S for an encounter, unlike DPS, is not uncapped. If you heal less, the WHM heals more. If you heal about 1000 hp/s worth, then the WHM scales back because more healing isn't needed.

Again, a SCH can't handle Flames of Rebirth spam alone. Or t2/t4 enrage back when those were things. Or remember titan hm/ex back when they were current, hm in particular, if the group took too long you would get a lot of stomps. We have echo and vastly out gear it now but that used to be medica-only territory.

I'll stop using HP/S then. WHMs have the highest potential throughput. ...And with SCH AoE and single-target burst being gated by aetherflow that may well remain the case, even if the job is stronger in AoE come the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Again, a SCH can't handle Flames of Rebirth spam alone.

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Turn 12 SCH solo heal. NO ECHO. :)

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Originally Posted by Lumis

Turn 12 SCH solo heal. NO ECHO. :)

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Well. I stand corrected. XD

Then, that raises the question... can someone analyze why WHM was able to solo heal t13 before sch? I would have though t12, with that AoE spam bit, would be the tough one.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

I'm not trying to undermine the strength of SCH, and of course I might be wrong, but I can't imagine that situation in Turn13 given both have the same skill and capable group.
Still, like Grishlain said HP/S (and I would say overheal to an extend) is not really a factor to judge by. Even after counting out possible parser errors it's heavily reliant on overall group performance as well and you can only heal as much as damage is incoming.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

WHM still has top throughput. You'll see similar numbers because of 1. HoT inflations (very powerful over time, but not immediately) and 2. It's the whole encounter. Potential HP/S for an encounter, unlike DPS, is not uncapped. If you heal less, the WHM heals more. If you heal about 1000 hp/s worth, then the WHM scales back because more healing isn't needed.

Again, a SCH can't handle Flames of Rebirth spam alone. Or t2/t4 enrage back when those were things. Or remember titan hm/ex back when they were current, hm in particular, if the group took too long you would get a lot of stomps. We have echo and vastly out gear it now but that used to be medica-only territory.

I'll stop using HP/S then. WHMs have the highest potential throughput. ...And with SCH AoE and single-target burst being gated by aetherflow that may well remain the case, even if the job is stronger in AoE come the expansion.

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I'm just glad we can have a meaningful discussion about all this without it devolving into some random name calling fest that this forum is prone for =p

In terms of HPS, yes, there are a lot of factors that can affect it. Note that I mentioned when both of us were out putting 1.2K HPS, we were both getting used to the fight and progressing through it. In total that HPS will be slightly inflated because it takes place during P1 and P2 where there is heavy healing involved. Those values would obviously drop once we were able to account for P3 because P3 healing is incredibly light compared to the prior two phases. With that being said, I still stand by my point that my HPS should never match my WHMs HPS (it probably does help that T13 does feel perfectly structured for Whispering Dawn usage as most raid attacks are slightly over a minute apart) and in part that probably will inflate my number more.

I also understand that every fight will require different compositions and strategies because they are, well different fights. Like how T2 enrage required double WHM, Flames of Rebirth is better for WHMs than it is for SCHs, Odin trial is better for WHMs than it is for SCH; likewise double SCH composition works well for other fights like all of BCoB outside of T2 enrage or double SCH for single tank Ramuh EX. In this particular case, it may just be because of how perfectly structured T13 is for SCH and their cooldowns, putting the spot light on SCHs power.

Though in the end, this discussion is all moot because we're getting EA Heavensward on Friday and servers will be down tomorrow, lol. Though I do enjoy the riveting discussion. *Offers tea to everyone so we can continue the discussion*

PS, why does no one know how to spell my name right? >>;... lol~

[Edit]

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Originally Posted by Lumis

Turn 12 SCH solo heal. NO ECHO. :)

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This is a unique scenario in the healing world of raids because the heal check for T12 becomes EASIER the higher your DPS goes, specifically when you're reaching the threshold that allows you to reduce the amount of Bennus you have to deal with. Higher DPS means significantly less time in the Bennu phase and thus less Flames of Rebirth to deal with.

The scenario Risvertasashi was speaking of in his example is if a healer dies or d/cs just before P3 starts so now you have one healer solo healing it with only four DPS and probably four Bennus in pre-echo state. That would be much harder to handle on a SCH versus a WHM (though I don't think it'd be impossible).