We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

How far below top DPS do people think SMN stands atm?
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Going off of Turn 10-T11- They have roughly 30-40 less DPS Potential

Turn 12 - 15 ~ less dps potential, depending on the strategy. I for one don't think bennu's shouldn't be mass aoe'd. Mage lB is enough > Single target the rest. But for the groups that have SMN's Baning dots then that raises their potential quite a bit

Turn 13 - ~20 less dps potential than blm, about equal potential as other classes depending on how the add phase is handled. BLM will still out DPS them throughout the whole fight + the add phase.

On a test dummy - 30-40 less dps potential than any other class, sans BRD.

This is of course not considering MP Problems.

At i115 with i110 gear one fester is roughly 8.3 DPS less so their potential goes down even further every time the are forced to use ED.

As most people have said fixing their MP problem would go a long way, Itemization would go a long way as well. A few minor dps tweaks would also level them out. I don't think anyone is asking for an overhaul or an over buff.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I'm no SMN expert, but if the overarching goal of balance is to have SMNs run out of MP about the same time DRGs/BRDs/MNKs/NINs run out of TP and have to manage their resources similarly to their TP counterpart, wouldn't the simplest solution be increasing the base PIE modifier on SMNs to be slightly higher? This allows for higher passive MP regeneration as well as a higher MP restoration on Aetherflow.

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It goes beyond MP though. That's definitely one of my bigger complaints but itemization is another major problem. Our damage is going to fall very far behind by i130. Spellspeed for SMN is basically an empty stat. It has almost no effect on our damage because of the way it's designed. We're forced to either use spellspeed or lots of accuracy. There's literally 1 caster piece that has both crit and det on it. Even our weapon has spellspeed.

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

Your arguments are valid Xero and actually I'm not complaining about my dps as smn..

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LMAO, love the slimes.

It is unfair to a degree for BLM DPS being higher given similar utility and both being mage classes. But BLM damage is effected by RNG, battle mechanics, Foe, movement. Often you need to make special accommodations for BLM so that they can maintain their DPS. (no mechanics. eat extra damage to avoid having to move etc). So in that regard it kind of makes sense that BLM max DPS has a higher potential.

As you say Flare, you play SMN for the complexity over BLM. If given better MP resources on SMN, that takes away from some of the complexity to manage those resources in those longer fights. This would make SMN pretty easy to play in longer fights, probably OP in long fights with mechanics that they excel at, OP in short fights with mechanics that they excel at (Ruin II spam + AA, M2 all the things).

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

DPS Values.

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Those values are 100% accurate. Although it's not against every class of course, only the top DPS for that given turn. In some cases it's, equal to, or <10 DPS to other classes.

So, it's really not as game breaking as it seems, as I could see SMN being if it had better MP resources on fights where it really shines. (50-80 DPS over top)

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

But BLM damage is effected by RNG, battle mechanics, Foe, movement. Often you need to make special accommodations for BLM so that they can maintain their DPS. So in that regard it kind of makes sense that BLM max DPS has a higher potential.

If given better MP resources on SMN, that takes away from some of the complexity to manage those resources in those longer fights. This would make SMN pretty easy to play in longer fights, probably OP in long fights with mechanics that they excel at, OP in short fights with mechanics that they excel at (Ruin II spam + AA, M2 all the things).

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The complexity from SMN comes mostly of watching timers and making sure that you're not clipping your DoTs. Rouse and spur timers need to be watched closely. Weaving in ruin IIs and knowing when you can be in melee range to autoattack the boss. Using contagion effectively. MP management is really only a FCoB problem with the exception of T8.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

It goes beyond MP though. That's definitely one of my bigger complaints but itemization is another major problem. Our damage is going to fall very far behind by i130. Spellspeed for SMN is basically an empty stat. It has almost no effect on our damage because of the way it's designed. We're forced to either use spellspeed or lots of accuracy. There's literally 1 caster piece that has both crit and det on it. Even our weapon has spellspeed.

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I guess the question then is how can Spell Speed be changed to benefit SMNs greater? I understand SS is a horrendous stat for SMN. Itemization this patch favours BLM immensely compared to their caster counterpart. However, blaming poor itemization of the patch won't fix the overarching problem that Spell Speed is an horrible stat for SMN.

Is there any way to fix Spell Speed so it's more beneficial for SMN? IE, can spell speed increase the speed of a DoT tick and then if it exceed X sec/tick, allows another tick of DoT damage in the normal DoT time frame (similar to how SS for WAR is good if you can get that extra GCD with Berserk up). Things like that would be an interesting train of thought to pursue if it hasn't been pursued yet. (honestly don't know)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I'm no SMN expert, but if the overarching goal of balance is to have SMNs run out of MP about the same time DRGs/BRDs/MNKs/NINs run out of TP and have to manage their resources similarly to their TP counterpart, wouldn't the simplest solution be increasing the base PIE modifier on SMNs to be slightly higher? This allows for higher passive MP regeneration as well as a higher MP restoration on Aetherflow.

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SMN actually does run out of MP around the same time as TP users naturally run out, in fact SMN can last longer than most of them (around 4m20s if played normally). The problem is, most classes run out around then or sooner, and since SMN is on a different resource pool, it is not going to get help in the same way. The current BRD resource system, where TP song lowers DPS, MP song lowers DPS, and Foe's doesn't lower DPS, and it's all tied in the same MP pool for BRD, means MP isn't worthwhile to just sing for a SMN.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Is there any way to fix Spell Speed so it's more beneficial for SMN? IE, can spell speed increase the speed of a DoT tick and then if it exceed X sec/tick, allows another tick of DoT damage in the normal DoT time frame (similar to how SS for WAR is good if you can get that extra GCD with Berserk up). Things like that would be an interesting train of thought to pursue if it hasn't been pursued yet. (honestly don't know)

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Buff SMN's Ruin filler to do more damage and/or somehow either cost no MP or actually recover MP, or let pets at least gain the effects of SS.

80%+ of SMN's damage (Aetherflow stacks tied to 60s CD, DoTs, pet attacks and CDs) is completely unrelated to SS in the current system, meaning you could have 0 SS or 200 SS and it won't actually boost a massive portion. I don't think SS needs to be useful exactly on SMN but in a gear system where it's on most of their pieces, something should change somewhere, and I'm pretty sure they're not going to shift all the itemizations around mid-patch and receive backlash from the BLM community.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

How far below top DPS do people think SMN stands atm

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Enough that BLM, the least mobile DPS in the game by default (which can be gotten around, but not 100% of the time), beats SMN, the second most mobile DPS, in the most movement heavy turn in the game, T11.

Honestly it's not about how far SMN does below the top, it's how badly it gets obliterated by BLM (who is also explicitly in the AoE, magic damage, caster tools role and typically only one caster is brought to fights to maximize DPS) in a dummy and raid scenario. BLM doesn't need nerfs, SMN just needs to be brought up to speed, or changed in a way that justifies their presence.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

It is unfair to a degree for BLM DPS being higher given similar utility and both being mage classes. But BLM damage is effected by RNG, battle mechanics, Foe, movement. Often you need to make special accommodations for BLM so that they can maintain their DPS. (no mechanics. eat extra damage to avoid having to move etc). So in that regard it kind of makes sense that BLM max DPS has a higher potential.

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This is definitely true, BLM has to have higher raw output to compete with SMN in mechanics heavy fights, but the gap is simply too wide presently, not counting MP issues (where the true gap starts to show itself). Even 10-20 DPS more consistent DPS in i130 would go a very long way to balancing the two classes.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Enough that BLM, the least mobile DPS in the game by default (which can be gotten around, but not 100% of the time), loses to SMN, the second most mobile DPS, in the most movement heavy fight in the game, T11.


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Sorry this really bothers me.

#1 : SMN's aren't some super mobile firing machine. Actually if you look at it now Mobility scales like this : BRD > NIN > DRG > MNK > SMN > BLM in terms moving while DPSing. NIN/DRG/MNK really have as much freedom as BRD but sometimes moving away from the boss can you make you miss a GCD.

#2 : A good BLM will obliterate any potential output that a SMN can put out in Turn 11, Hands down. Not sure if you worded that wrong or what.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The problem with Summoner is the way it's designed. DoT classes are pure crowd control but since modern MMORPG's uses the holy trinity there is no such role. DoT instead should be regulated to healing not damage dealing since they are support otherwise as a dps they suffer from the power creep. The way raid content is going Summoner is going to have to be rebuilt from the ground up. SE should give the Summoner Summoning Magic and make them a Pure Summoner.

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...Referring to them as "Pure Summoners" makes it sound like a cult.
"We, Pure Summoners, shall smite the impure Summoners, with their DoTs and floating plushies with our live-action cutsense and copy-paste-rename Black Mage spells."
Akiza, you're arguments focus too much on aesthetics and not mechanics or function... >3>

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

Sorry this really bothers me.

#1 : SMN's aren't some super mobile firing machine. Actually if you look at it now Mobility scales like this : BRD > NIN > DRG > MNK > SMN > BLM in terms moving while DPSing. NIN/DRG/MNK really have as much freedom as BRD but sometimes moving away from the boss can you make you miss a GCD.

#2 : A good BLM will obliterate any potential output that a SMN can put out in Turn 11, Hands down. Not sure if you worded that wrong or what.

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1. By mobility I mean disengaging the boss, not necessarily just switching positions. If you save Swiftcast and pre-emptively DoT use Miasma/Bio II before forced movement SMN can easily be the 2nd most mobile, even if you have to skip R2, since you can literally have 90% of your DPS working or being on CD while running around. All melee lose not just GCDs but also AAs (25%~ of melee DPS), their potential place in their rotation, and potentially positionals (if talking about just circling the enemy, not disengaging), if they have to do Earthshakers/fountains/towers/whatever.

2. Yeah I meant the other way around, fixed it.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Snip of Point 1.

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This point is pretty dated, back to 2.0 where disengagement was a big thing. In the current meta DPS can stay engaged with the boss almost 100% of the time. I think Earthshakers is the only exception this. Even back in 2.0 you stay engaged quite a bit but people didn't bother to figure how to. SMN's still have to turret quite a bit to be even comparable in DPS. I don't like the mobile misconception that is being spread :/