End the Debate? Hardcore and Regular Servers

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Originally Posted by DSX

If you reread what I have mentioned previously you would notice me saying how deep you make your rabbit hole is a measurement of how complex you can make your game.

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Complexity can have a negative effect as well. You simply can't deny XI always struggled with balance issues.

All I'm going to add here as it goes off topic.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

no you just provided "math" that just showed you use the most basic of numbers XI had more skills (wether or not they were actually used was discarded) and the sub job system (which yet again was number crunched down to optimal setups) and ignored the crux of the matter...actual gameplay mechanics. again the rabbit hole GAMEPLAY wise for BLM was the elemental wheel, the magic burst system, and that's about it. you can't use POTENTIAL mechanics that were never used (and never existed) to buoy your arguement. if they weren't used then they effectively didn't exist.

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I was talking about math from the get go, you can see it through out my posts and everyone can see it too.
You challenged my "math" and I provided proof that it is correct.
You claimed FFXIV has more as opposed to my math of the contrary but failed to provide the "math" because you can't produce it.
If math is not your strong point please refrain from arguing about it.

magnitude of complexity is important to set in games like MMORPG because you are simply setting the foundation for years (or perhaps decades) to come of continuous production of new content for this game. It is wise to make your rabbit hole as deep as possible because you never know when you will need it to create things that you never did before. Lacking depth will always haunt you for any long term project because you only have a small number of ways you can utilize a shallow pool of gameplay mechanics and you will end up just shuffling simpleton mechanics over and over for your "new" content. You are as good as the rabbit hole you made in terms of gameplay mechanics variety, that's a fact. (Mathematically correct :rolleyes: )


Good day/night mam/sir :)

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Complexity can have a negative effect as well. You simply can't deny XI always struggled with balance issues.

All I'm going to add here as it goes off topic.

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That is true indeed. But that's the development team issue to resolve.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

I just got dumber

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I can haz teh dum?

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Originally Posted by DSX

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again...your "math" discounts the actual mechanics in favor of just number values...

when taken as a whole XIV actually requires you to USE most if not all of your abilities, where as XI had you use maybe half of the bloated list they gave you on a shallow "Rock, Paper Scissors" system for its entire exisitence. Again you used basic arithmatic, when complex math is needed. if your "Potential Mechanics" are never used in 11+ years, then they effectively don't exist

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

again...your "math" discounts the actual mechanics in favor of just number values...

when taken as a whole XIV actually requires you to USE most if not all of your abilities, where as XI had you use maybe half of the bloated list they gave you on a shallow "Rock, Paper Scissors" system for its entire exisitence. Again you used basic arithmatic, when complex math is needed.

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Did you miss the parts about developers picking and choosing what to use as the game ages?
looking at that did you miss me indicating that the unused stuff is your ammunition for future content?
did you miss how large ffxi pool to begin with which is smart because it could last them decades and still produce genuinely new content with genuinely new gameplay mechanics because they have that unused pool?
did you not see me saying if the pool small you will exhaust the number of ways you can use your set and end up merely shuffling it for the "new" content?

do you realize that the magnitude of complexity for a single battle is also depending on how deep that rabbit hole you made because as a developer you can make it more complex by utilizing more of them?

do you realize that unused pool of abilities does not reduce the magnitude of complexity but rather indicate how much the developers choose to use and thus how simple they want it to be?

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Originally Posted by DSX

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and did you see that if for 11+ years they never use them, and just keep adding the same things that utilize the system that was in place since day one, then that "Potential" Doesn't exist. You're attempting to move the goal posts. over millions of years the half life of certain elements means they'll change to other ones, that doesn't mean I can use it as a retirement fund, I have to use the system as it exists in the here and now I can't hope that potentially it might pay off. The rabbit hole only goes as deep as what is actually there, and right now XIV's actual gameplay mechanics have more depth than the 'rock, paper, scissor's" of your continued only example of XI. Using your "math" what happens when the lvl cap rises, more cross class abilities can be taken, new skills are added... Your logic is based on everything staying static like XI did for 6+ years, the "potential" you keep bringing up exists as much here as in XI, and more so as the system here is not based on a rigid "Rock, Paper, Scissors" gameplay foundation, the system in place now offers far more variables rather than having to find a use for things they added before that at the time were either useless or weren't needed, they can purpose build, rather than try to shoehorn a mechanic in. The variables in XI are at this point known, the only course there is to either fundamentally change the groundwork of the gameplay, or continuing to add content that makes use of what's already there

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

and did you see that if for 11+ years they never use them the that "Potential" Doesn't exist.

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Math says it exists so it does. Please if you will attempt to post facts make sure the math adds up first.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

You're attempting to move the goal posts.

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Funny you say that. Because from the very start I made it clear in my posts that what I'm saying has nothing to do with FFXI itself and any game could replace it on the left hand side of that picture (provided it has a slimier magnitude of complexity) I even indicated that to you twice but you kept talking about FFXI and FFXI (I'm sorry if this game in particular has this profound impact on you that you can't go past it even if it wasn't the subject matter at hand). I indulged you about FFXI yet I' am the one being accused of moving the goal post by none other than you. Ironic :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

The rabbit hole only goes as deep as what is actually there. Using your "math" what happens when the lvl cap rises, more cross class abilities can be taken, new skills are added... Your logic is based on everything staying static, the "potential" you keep bringing up exists as much here as in XI, and more so as the system here is not based on a rigid "Rock, Paper, Scissors" gameplay foundation, the system in place now offers far moore variables.

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No. as you can see in my math I restricted my calculation for comparative status and same number of cross-class/sub-job available to blm in both games (what you have in both game as of lvl50 and if the lvl cap changes then we compare on whatever that new cap is).

I mentioned earlier and I want to mention it again that people tend to remember what they like. Example, you mentioning MP management in FFXIV and forgetting how it was done in FFXI.

This is my last reply to you as I see your whole logic henge on what you conveniently pick and choose to your liking rather than on what a game can offer (based on the gameplay mechanics foundation it has) opposed to what portion of the game the developers throwing you.

Again good day/night mam/sir :)

I see that you keep editing your posts long after you posted them and I made my replies. I will not go in further that what I already stated.

I apologize to all who was discussing the OP (which I completely addressed in my earlier posts).

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Originally Posted by DSX

Math says it exists so it does. Please if you will attempt to post facts make sure the math adds up first. again your math is based purely on number values and not actual gameplay mechanics, effectively saying because XI had more skills it was more complex, even if the mechanics were based around a rigid gameplay foundation



Funny you say that. Because from the very start I made it clear in my posts that what I'm saying has nothing to do with FFXI itself and any game could replace it on the left hand side of that picture (provided it has a slimier magnitude of complexity) I even indicated that to you twice but you kept talking about FFXI and FFXI (I'm sorry if this game in particular has this profound impact on you that you can't go past it even if it wasn't the subject matter at hand). I indulged you about FFXI yet I' am the one being accused of moving the goal post by none other than you. Ironic :rolleyes: and I challenged you to come up with a game that supports your criteria and you have yet to do that so we have to work with what we have, which is XI



No. as you can see in my math I restricted my calculation for comparative status and same number of cross-class/sub-job available to blm in both games (what you have in both game as of lvl50 and if the lvl cap changes then we compare on whatever that new cap is).which yet again ignored actual gamplay in favor of pure "X has more so it must be more complex" even though the underlying mechanis don't support that supposition

I mentioned earlier and I want to mention it again that people tend to remember what they like. Example, you mentioning MP management in FFXIV and forgetting how it was done in FFXI. MP management in XI was, cast spells in a specific order, hope you have a brd or RDM in the party, sub SMN or use convert/ethers, XIV has those (barring /SMN and RDMs) and the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice mechanic

This is my last reply to you as I see your whole logic henge on what you conveniently pick and choose to your liking rather than on what a game can offer (based on the gameplay mechanics foundation it has) opposed to what portion of the game the developers throwing you. and the "gameplay" mechanic you keep saying is a foundation is purely Number of Skills, rather than how those skills are used, their effect in game, and a myriad of other topics worth getting into... Your argument seems to be "Gameplay=Size of the spell book" rather than "Gameplay=How those skills are used"

Again good day/night mam/sir :)

I see that you keep editing your posts long after you posted them and I made my replies. I will not go in further that what I already stated.

I apologize to all who was discussing the OP (which I completely addressed in my earlier posts)

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You keep repeating that your "math" wins, but you keep ignoring the actual crux, what mechanics did XI have (and actually used this "potential" nonsense needs to stop) and if you want to keep up with the "I'm not talking about XI" then provide a game that supports your hypothesis.