2.2 has sucked all the fun out of the game...

Level 50 player grinding a level 2 fate for hours/days to get a level 100 weapon makes perfect sense to me! The only reason why were grinding the fates is because fates were dead for new players. This is a half ass attempt to make low level fates alive again. Only it didn't work because high level players are raping low level fates and low levels cant get gold. I really had a lot of faith in SE until 2.2. PS4 ESO beta is soon and if I like the game I am not going to think twice about making the switch to ESO!

In 2.3 they'll adjust the ATMA grind (possibly sooner) and make Sands/Oils/Unidentified Tomes available in Coil1 or new CT. If you don't think that's going to happen, you're delusional. Enjoy your special snowflake i110 raiding gear while it lasts.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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I disagree with your argument that 2.2 was solely an attempt to please the "hardcore player".


First, nothing in this game is hardcore. Nothing. Challenging for the majority, perhaps, but in no way hardcore.

Second, the grind (at least for Atma and Masterwork) actually gives the casual player a very easy way to progress their gear. Unfortunately, that truly is messing with lower level players who are trying to do Fates, as well, if the level 50's are excluding them from Fate parties. But, how many people complaining about that are actually making parties and welcoming low level players into them? Very few, I suspect, so that complaint really holds no water for me unless it's made by the low level players who are struggling due to that.

Also, the echo buffs will make Coil 1-5 much more accessible to players who were struggling with it prior to 2.2. They may only get ilvl 90 gear from doing it, but they will be clearing content they were not clearing (and for some, not even attempting) before. Ironically, that is an idea that many who are complaining about ilvl110 gear only coming from Coils 6-9 conveniently ignore when they talk about "hardcore" raiders only caring about having max level gear. Go figure. Anyway. The new primals do require the previous ones to be cleared, but again, those should now be more accessible (discounting latency, which we all know has been an intermittent problem) to the more casual player. There are challenge logs. There are vanity items to go find, new mounts and minions for those who like them. Crafting. There are all sorts of things for the those who are not, by your definition, "hardcore", to do and to catch up on. There are also things that slow those who rush through the hardest content. It is a balance, and while it isn't perfect, it's probably more balanced that it was pre-2.2 simply because so many have not even finished half of the pre-patch content yet. Could it be improved upon in future patches to give a wider variety of challenging content? Absolutely. But your overarching statement is still just that... overarching.

Third, there were plenty of "hardcore" gamers who sat back pre-2.2 when the game very much catered to the more casual players and we just had fun with the game. I personally didn't focus on only one thing. Certainly, there were plenty who complained that content was too easy and too quickly cleared. That is because nothing in this game is hardcore. So, pleasing those players doesn't happen by introducing a longer grind. Pleasing those players happens by making extremely challenging content, and more of it. The only thing these two opposing ideas have in common is that they both hinder the rate in which the majority of players will attain items/gear.

How many players of each mindset actually use the forums? How many are vocal about what they want and don't want? I think more than 5-10% of the player base wanted a little taste of old school gaming in ARR. Most of them likely didn't come to the forums and voice it. For example, the majority of my FC wanted more challenge, but they don't use the forums at all. Conversely, how many of the more casual players use the forums? I honestly don't know what the estimate on that would be, but I suspect it's higher simply due to the number of threads I've seen since launch complaining about content that is actually not in any way a challenge, or how people are too mean, or any number of things that point to that mindset.

All in all, some of the new grind does give something to do to those who truly don't enjoy a challenge. Some of it doesn't. Just because the balance doesn't weigh as heavily in some aspects toward the casual gamer doesn't mean there is a terrible balance. It just means that for the time being, it's a different one.

Oh I'll be frank. I'm hating the Atma grind so far. (I've only got a single Atma after a few days of running the fates). But I can't think of Atma farming as 'hardcore' stuff as I've seen some call it. It's more of a 'how long can you handle tedium' sort of thing. And hey, some people have more tolerance for it than others.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

In 2.3 they'll adjust the ATMA grind (possibly sooner) and make Sands/Oils/Unidentified Tomes available in Coil1 or new CT. If you don't think that's going to happen, you're delusional. Enjoy your special snowflake i110 raiding gear while it lasts.

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that would be completely fine with me.

i just don't think the highest tier of gear should be easy to get as soon as it's released. i see no issue with it being made easier to get later on. it's like they did the extremes. you hear none of the players that already beat the extremes complaining about echo buff nor coil 1-5 being made able to be farmed. it's because they were already able to clear the content while it was difficult and they have moved to the next challenge. making it hard to start and easier later allows everyone to have access over time. no, it may not be accessible on day 1 due to time or skill, but it will be eventually. i don't understand why people are upset they can't beat the new content when they haven't even cleared the old stuff.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

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This. A thousand times this. It's how the majority of MMO's have worked for years, and I couldn't care less about things being easier to get when newer content goes live. I'll be busy trying out the newer content, just as I am now. :) And I'll actually be happy for those who will have more access to the actual content, if not the newest items.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

the new generation of player want challenging and fun stuff to do... not mindless grind unrewarding.

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Atma quest isn't the only thing they added in 2.2, you know...

Levi X.
Moogle X.
Coils.
3 new dungeons.

And people still haven't finished 2.1 content, with titan X being the blocker.

I don't know about you, but I'm finding Levi and Moogle X lots of fun, with a chance at reward. The guy above moaning about i100 neck piece being shit, might as well not have any middle ground progression and skip right to coils after coils, ya?

Amdapor City, while easy, is probably the most aesthetically beautiful designed dungeon there is. I can go in there, not for the reward, but just for the atmosphere and beauty.

If your focus is all just about the loot loot and not the journey, then I really can't help you.

i love how people try to make all look like they want.

let's talk of the atma/animus, since you say it's casual. i gonna give you some number... i did them on another forum but let's redo this there.
1 book cost 1500 myth. an casual player in a team will take 15-25 minute per dungeon. if he don't use the duty and simply do it normal, the dungeon will give 50 myth.
per book it will be 450 minutes to 750 minutes (7.5 hrs to 12.5 hrs) for get the myth. i don't count the duty roulette, mostly because the best way to get instant dungeon for a casual is do a team.
a book can take between 3 at 5 hrs to complete (if you have no luck with the FATE spawn)
ok there we have the number for 1 book, we need 9 book for get the animus! leading to 67.5 hrs to 112.5 hrs for the myth part and if you add the completion of the book to it 27hrs to 45hrs... giving as final time: 94.5 hrs to 157.5hrs (people can go faster or take more time keep it in head)

a casual will spend 2-3 hrs per day to play the game. let's be generous 3 hrs per day, leading in total of day of gaming for a casual : 32 day at 53 day... at do nothing else than this. and i didn't even take in account the atma part... some player have get still no atma in 9 days.
where this is casual? the next patch 2.3 it 12 week after the 2.2 meaning 84 days... if the casual is lucky he will spend less of 1/3 of the whole 2.2 at farm for get ONE animus and if he is not lucky... he will spend more of 2/3 of the 2.2 at get it.
and the best... the 2.25 bring another step to the quest line....

other point, now, if you look at the whole content of the 2.2... you will notice that the true progress and reward are not for casual. crafting are a joke almost a slap in the face of the crafter. taking more time and gils for get a 3 star in HQ. that barely better than what you can get with myth and BC1. indeed if you invest more gils into it... it will be better. meaning more farming for get the gils and the materia meld.

show me any content added with the 2.2 that are casual friendly? none is casual friendly. Hardcore and Raider have cry rive because people was able to get myth stuff that was as strong than the stuff you was getting into raid. Yoshida itself have admit that player didn't had incentive reason to do this content. when the trouble was not the loot... but the lockout used.

everyone is saying people want fast reward... but just like this. if someone did begin with the 2.1 even with the myth, it did take him 11 weeks for get the whole set. and the 2.2 have arrive 12 week after.

Hardcore and Raider don't want the other to get the same treatment...for them, it can be only one hard content raid and if you can get something as good by doing something else... is not good! check the thread about this on the same forum. some was even saying nothing can be as hard than raid was is a false... they can make any sort of content more hard than raid!

ps: levi and mog X can't be done if you haven't done garuda, ifrit and titan X.
BC2 can't be done if you don't have clean T5.
the new dungeon are not even hard, it's for allows new player to catch up and get i70 stuff.
in many server the community don't allows new player or people out of a static to get in a PF group. you need to be exp and you can't get exp from DF....

With respect, I have to assume that English is not your first language, but I am trying to have a good understanding of what you're typing.


Time does not equal challenge. It equals time. So I maintain that getting Atma and ilvl100 gear is not a challenge. It may be hindered by time constraint, however, it is not a challenge. You, yourself, stated that the grind is for those who don't want a challenge, which is an inaccurate generalization. Your focus seems to be heavily on the Atma farm. Atma is, in no way, the only feature of 2.2. It is an option for those who have the time and do not want to or can not upgrade their weapons via other means, and even for those who just like doing that sort of thing.

Crafting is not and likely will never be a focus in this game. That is a shame, however, there are crafters on my server having a good ol' time getting their Master books and enjoying the challenge of the 3 Star recipes not being 100% HQ as they were used to having for older items.

I already showed you the rewards in place for the more casual player. Just because all of the rewards are not ilvl110 gear with little time invested does not mean they are not rewards that were not yet accessible to the casual player.

Again, you are making generalizations about what other people think. I used to be a hardcore raider (not enough time or energy for that anymore) and I still raid extensively, and I do not begrudge players access to awesome items. I do understand why max level raid gear should come solely from the most difficult raid content. I also think it would be very cool for there to be other types of gear with different stats of the same level designed for other content, such as solo challenge bosses which require resistances, etc, or extremely difficult (raid boss level) treasure map bosses. That is why I say more variety would be good in terms of what challenging content is available. Certainly, those with time constraints could benefit highly from something like that, and it would not disrupt the balance the devs are trying to find with how gear is distributed. It is not about not wanting another player to get an item that is just as good. It's more desirable for another player to get something just as good for the content they are doing, not for doing lesser content.

Even considering your comment about Myth, I still don't consider it a slow grind for the casual to have a full set of Myth gear with 3 months to spare before 2.2 went live. That's pretty fast, actually, considering that some raiders waited months before getting even one Coil drop. And now, with limited means to fill in the gaps with gear of equal item level while waiting for Coil drops, the casual will likely have a full set of content appropriate level gear (ilvl100) long before a raider will have a full set of max level Coil gear. That is not to say that one is better than the other. However, it is to say that the casual will still fully benefit for the content they're actually doing (not too many casuals are going to be in T9 in the very near future) in a shorter span of time. The gear distribution debate is one that is getting old after all the threads thus far and frankly, the devs will either stick to their guns or they won't. Time will tell, but I don't think either side will convince the other.

I know the new content can not be unlocked until the old content is finished. That is not a bad thing. That is finishing what you start before moving on to the next. It actually encourages people to finish the content instead of just skipping over what they felt was too difficult, only to complain that the newer content is also... you guessed it... too difficult.

The bottom line is that there absolutely is plenty to keep people busy at the moment, and there are actually many happy casuals right now doing things they could not do before, and many love 2.2 because they aren't focused on what they can't get that someone else can and are just having fun trying things. It's all in how you look at it.

Levi EX, Moogle EX, Gilgamesh, new dungeons and new Coils what I've seen up to turn 7 are all fun. Can't blame you for wanting to also complete the Atma quest and focus more on that though, unlike a very vocal minority of people who love apologizing for the mistakes of others. It's just plain simply a badly designed RNG gate for an arguably even more time consuming quest, I've been sitting here waiting for one of the book FATEs to pop for about 2 hours doing practically nothing except trying to clear other FATEs hoping the one I actually need finally pops and this is just my second book.

It really makes no sense they put this behind an all luck and resilience based grind, aside from the obvious PS4 launch, since the books already mostly reward effort and allow you to make consistent progress at your own pace. If your FATE doesn't pop then you can queue for the dungeon part or go hunt the mobs or do the leves or farm more myth for the next book unless the last thing you need is a FATE that takes 3 hours to pop. It's designed to be a time consuming quest at its finest and that's fine, the real bad decision was gating it behind an entirely RNG based grind that might have sounded good in the planning stages but ended up screwing a big chunk of the playerbase.