Dark Knight Megathread

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引用元：Archwizard

Hello animation of Blood Weapon (and to my knowledge, Blood Weapon only). Allow me to introduce you to RPR's Soulsow:

Shall we suggest RPR get similar runes?

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I mean, that job, too, is kind of basic af offensively, so I can't say I'd mind that.

But... let's flesh out ideas for the DRK side first?

I see no problem in borrowing ideas from jobs in other roles. That being said, the main reason why SAM's particular combo system has meaning is because it also has positionals thrown in there. Otherwise you might as well just have a single longer combo that you truncate at various points with a finisher.

Tangential, but...

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引用元：Lyth

I see no problem in borrowing ideas from jobs in other roles. That being said, the main reason why SAM's particular combo system has meaning is because it also has positionals thrown in there. Otherwise you might as well just have a single longer combo that you truncate at various points with a finisher.

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Wait, that doesn't make any sense.

DRG has multiple distinct positionals in the same combo, with no way to choose this or that positional only based on the combo. Having distinct positionals does not require a combo each, nor does a combo need to include only one positional each.

Moreover, SAM can't merely choose to swap from Kasha to Gekko in that moment (outside of Meikyo). Unlike NIN's, SAM's combos diverge at their second step and do not therefore offer a moment-of positional choice.



No, though SAM's reasons for SAM's ST combos being split have been reduced or even removed over time, they have had had nothing to do with their having different positionals (note again that DRG ends each combo with back-to-back different positionals) and everything to do timing towards capstone skills (Hagakure and then Tsubame) and optimizing Meikyo uses that start at partially filled Sen or will consume less than 3 Sen.

That those combos could even be confused now for having been primarily based on primarily on positionals just points out the butchery the job has gone through this expansion.

SAM's lucky charms are only a slight deviation from the standard maintenance combo approach. I think that the main nuance of the system comes from identifying and understanding the timing around certain positional sequences in relation to specific mechanics (which you're right, does require a degree of anticipation and fight knowledge). If you take that away (which you would, if the system were implemented on a tank), it would feel just like a set of maintenance combos on a 1:1:1 ratio that you occasionally truncate early.

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引用元：Lyth

SAM's lucky charms are only a slight deviation from the standard maintenance combo approach. I think that the main nuance of the system comes from identifying and understanding the timing around certain positional sequences in relation to specific mechanics (which you're right, does require a degree of anticipation and fight knowledge). If you take that away (which you would, if the system were implemented on a tank), it would feel just like a set of maintenance combos on a 1:1:1 ratio that you occasionally truncate early.

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I still have to disagree that such is a main nuance, let alone the main one; True North is a thing, there is no longer any risk of buff falloff for putting a certain combo forward for positioning anyways, and the actual need to pre-plan positionals are relatively few and far between these days.

But yes, so long as you don't also include any frequent and engaging reason to vary and/or truncate the flow of combos (as already, unfortunately, largely true of Endwalker SAM), swapping a 1-2-3 single-combo spam merely for an almost equally rigid ABC three-combo cycle wouldn't feel like enough of an improvement to warrant its additional button cost.

That said, we certainly can give frequent and engaging reason(s) to vary and/or truncate the flow of those three combos. SAM hasn't done any exceptional job of that (especially since SkS-heavy Stormblood SAMs), and that element of its gameplay has been crippled over Endwalker (even more so with the potency shuffles from 6.1), but they had already shown that it can, at least, be done.

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引用元：Lyth

If you take that away (which you would, if the system were implemented on a tank), it would feel just like a set of maintenance combos on a 1:1:1 ratio that you occasionally truncate early.

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It's true, but then I intentionally kept the structure — to use a Shurrikhan term — 'basic AF', because... well... exactly as you said, it's a Tank. I figured that any kind of Tank concept would be dead from the word 'go' if it became much more complex than Gunbreaker Cartridges / Gnashing Fang.

My perspective may not be accurate, but my impression is that Tanks are the dumping ground for rotations that are basically skeletonized versions of actual Melee DPS rotations, in order to (hypothetically) allow bandwidth for Tank obligations.

If you want to campaign for more complex ideas I definitely won't complain, but I just figured it was an unrealistic approach to start with.

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引用元：Shurrikhan

A further question though, albeit it based off the first spitball idea on the three glyphs:

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Good questions. And I understand what you were saying about the framework now.

I guess I was thinking that the primary motivation was just to expand GCD space, and not to rebuild Dark Knight from the ground up. And so, it was okay to have a relatively basic system that was just 'dressed up' with a code mechanic, because I assumed you'd still be keeping track of OGCDs, MP, etc.

I think that the depth you'd want to add to each Glyph-generating combo would probably vary depending on how much you scaled back (or didn't) the other aspects that Dark Knight would still be keeping track of.

If you went all-in on yet another Job redesign, you could make the combos more detailed and give them more purposes, but as the discussion noted earlier, that gets really tricky when players are wily enough to just perform PPGCD calculations the moment they see tooltips drop.

I was leaning in for more of a Samurai Lite approach, where yeah, the primary motivating factor to swap combos was just to fill up the corresponding 'stickers'. That is definitely not the only valid approach, though, it just becomes more complex to keep the design under control as you add more and more competing and interacting effects and goals (for example, "Ah, I need MP but I already have that Gylph... this system is frustrating...!").

As far as the combo bloat, that's why I had everything branch only at the 3rd step, so that the net button change was +2 (two extra finishers) and +1 (the 'execution' button). I figured that GCD increases tend to be easier to swallow than OGCD increases since it doesn't challenge weave space, but if it felt too excessive, some less-exciting actions could become burnt offerings to free up bind space. Or, you could scrap the 'Samurai' approach, and switch to the Dancer 'combo conversion' approach, but that doesn't increase GCD space as effectively, if that's a goal.

Most of your other comments and ideas are good/interesting, I just don't have an immediate clever response of my own yet.

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Spitball: I'd especially like the idea of building up buffs that sort of represent some (pre-DRK-pilled or what have you) belief or value held before sacrificing it for a highly changed non-removable buff (or debuff-as-net-benefit for more obvious symbolic identity). The timing should feel crucial and the risk-reward element significant.

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This especially is pretty cool, and also nicely captures the general theming / concept of the Job. I feel like this is a pretty nice design point to launch from when considering adding to Dark Knight's overall structure or rotational goals.

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引用元：Eorzean_username

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When you break it down, SAM's Iaijutsu still follows the maintenance/damage format. So if you take away the positional elements, the Lucky Charm gauge itself becomes a bit superfluous.

You effectively have a single extended combo that you just truncate early with a finisher to apply a maintenance effect. Which you certainly can do. If you use 'Dark Arts Rune No Jutsu' after two steps, let's say your finisher is called 'Goring' and applies a DoT. If you do it after five steps, let's say that the finisher is called 'Atonement' and hits hard. I mean, sure, you've increased the baseline GCD count, but I'm not a big fan of that sort of system to begin with.

Gnashing Fang is interesting in its own rights, but I see that more as a finisher sequence in the same vein as Enshroud, especially with the buttons merged down. Likewise, Burst Strike is a functional analogue to Bloodspiller except more frequent. Now you could always have Bloodspiller initiate a combo, which would change up the Delirium window as well. Although it would probably have to be a two step combo to fit safely into the current window length, and the MP gain on Delirium would likely double to offset what you lose from missed Syphons.

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引用元：Eorzean_username

I was leaning in for more of a Samurai Lite approach, where yeah, the primary motivating factor to swap combos was just to fill up the corresponding 'stickers'. That is definitely not the only valid approach, though, it just becomes more complex to keep the design under control as you add more and more competing and interacting effects and goals (for example, "Ah, I need MP but I already have that Gylph... this system is frustrating...!").

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My concern there is that --though admittedly DPS may have higher standards for their kits-- Samurai itself switching to a Samurai-lite has already cost many a Stormblood/Shadowbringer SAM mains I know the enjoyment of their job.

There's a pretty high investment threshold for those systems to reach a cohesive and compelling value. To provide the bones of such a system and little to none of the flesh or macrorotational implications would seem rather bloated.

That's not to say we shouldn't do anything like this, but if attempt such a system, we ought to go all in and be willing to tweak the surrounding systems for cohesion.

:: And again, even Endwalker SAM is already pretty well a SAM-lite, so if we're we to look at a past or present examples, it should probably be Stormblood's or Shadowbringer's SAM -- i.e., back when no one could possibly mistake the Sen gauge for being just a product of ordering one's positionals (especially given that SAM has 3 different ways to deal with that without reordering combos).

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引用元：Lyth

When you break it down, SAM's Iaijutsu still follows the maintenance/damage format. So if you take away the positional elements, the Lucky Charm gauge itself becomes a bit superfluous.

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Again, this feels like an oversimplification that purposely ignores all the other ways Sen was handled prior to Endwalker. And, again, swapping between whether to use Gekko or Kasha next was among the least typical of 4 different ways to deal with incoming lost opportunities for positioning. Keep in mind that Iaijutsu itself has no positional and can be woven in at any time up until the next finisher. Those 2 GCDs of flex could already deal with incoming brief boss spins, and anything else was pretty well absorbable by Yukikaze, True North, or even Yaten-Enpi-Gyoten (especially when it's been potency-neutral).

To say despite that that the only difference between having a generated and spent Rune system or the like and a single long combo is just positionals, then, seems... very odd. Did you not play SAM in Stormblood or Shadowbringers?

:: If we're to limit ourselves to concrete examples for the moment, shouldn't we at least look at the one that hasn't been butchered? What your saying doesn't much hold water for any other iteration of that system.

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Gnashing Fang is interesting in its own rights, but I see that more as a finisher sequence in the same vein as Enshroud, especially with the buttons merged down.

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I'm a little confused by this, though.

It's less flexible than Goring Blade, has fewer use cases than Goring Blade, and varies combo use less than Goring Blade, is not remotely so bankable as Enshroud, isn't built up a secondary resource unlike Enshroud, and is used as an opener rather than a finisher. What makes it particularly interesting, let alone like Enshroud?

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Now you could always have Bloodspiller initiate a combo, which would change up the Delirium window as well. Although it would probably have to be a two step combo to fit safely into the current window length, and the MP gain on Delirium would likely double to offset what you lose from missed Syphons.

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The MP gain on Delirium is per attack anyways, each granting the average MP/gcd of our combo, so we shouldn't need to double its MP gains. However, is this to say that Delirium should then essentially grant 6 GCDs (3 sets of BS+1)? Is each of those post-Bloodspiller steps to be free?

My first concern in adding a second step to Bloodspiller would be our Blood generation over time. At present we generate ~170 Blood per minute (160 natural, +50 from BW, -20 from 3 GCDs spent on Delirium, -20 from 3 GCDs naturally spent on Bloodspiller, increasing to 4 every 2.5 minutes). If we turn each Bloodspiller into a two-step combo, then we nearly double its uptime costs. Though that would in turn delay a natural Bloodspiller to 3 in 5 1-minute cycles, that'd still mean losing 20-40 Blood per minute.

As 20 Blood will not be neatly divisible by 3, moreover, you wouldn't be able to just give it the Delirium treatment of (combo resource/GCD granted per gcd of this post-Bloodspiller step) to even things out.

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引用元：Lyth

Now you could always have Bloodspiller initiate a combo, which would change up the Delirium window as well.

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引用元：Shurrikhan

My first concern in adding a second step to Bloodspiller would be our Blood generation over time.

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Hmm. In theory you could sidestep this by having the second combo step instead be an oGCD -- something like "Bloodspiller causes your next Edge of Darkness to change to a more powerful ability" similar to Continuation, and the same for Quietus with Flood.
Plus you can dip into the "Darkside management" discussion by having them compete for MP over time, the more powerful versions not giving Darkside at all. And with it consuming MP, it would jam a crowbar into the discussion of just copying Continuation outright.

Of course the main complications from that are how it would fundamentally change the relationship to MP, particularly in burst. Delirium gives 3 Bloodspillers in a row and refunds 600MP, so a 9000MP cost for a Delirum window would more than negate its MP restoration benefit. You could sidestep this by having Delirium temporarily negate the MP cost of such a skill though, I suppose, and perhaps have the upgraded skill have a lower MP cost overall (say 1000-1500MP)?

How that affects Dark Arts being entirely up to taste.

(All the same, it would put us back at Square 1 for adjusting our downtime between bursts, and make weaving even trickier during burst.)

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引用元：Archwizard

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You could attach a follow-up oGCD to Bloodspiller instead of creating a Bloodspiller 'combo', but I think what prompted this particular discussion over combos was how few unique GCDs DRK has. I think if you want to set up an oGCD combo sequence, it would be better to have a couple of unique GCDs that you can cycle through after every Edge/Flood.

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引用元：Shurrikhan

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I'm sure that you can come up with some more convoluted Dark Lucky Charms if you tried. But if you're just cycling through ABC combos in sequence to collect those Dark Lucky Charms, then it's bound to play out similarly to PLD's Boring Blade setup. I thought we wanted to avoid copying over yet another Lv 50 maintenance combo at Lv 100?

Enshroud is just the natural evolution of Gnashing Fang. It absolutely is a thousand times better, but I think that the reason why it's so slick is because they had the previous expansion to test out the original concept. But you do have to give credit to GNB's design, as it's a really interesting idea and a step above the original IR approach to burst.

The 600 MP gain on Delirium is really just offsets the loss of the single Syphon from the standard combo it replaces. If you double the length of Delirium to Bloodspiller/Torcleaver/Bloodspiller/Torcleaver/Bloodspiller/Torcleaver by adding a combo step, that's six GCDs and two Syphons that you have to replace, unless you give Delirium a GCD reduction effect as well.

Adding a combo step to Bloodspiller not only reduces our Blood generation, it also reduces our MP generation as well. As potentially could any GCDs that we could add.

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引用元：Lyth

You could attach a follow-up oGCD to Bloodspiller instead of creating a Bloodspiller 'combo', but I think what prompted this particular discussion over combos was how few unique GCDs DRK has.

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Agreed, and it's already not an ideal solution.

I suppose a superior alternative would be to go the full 9 yards and make Bloodspiller a 3-step combo, provided you adjust Delirium to compensate for it now being 3 GCDs instead of just one.
It's easier to divide by 3, can be fit into current GCD alignments with adjustments to base skill speed, and as long as the overall combo recovers at least as much MP as Syphon Strike, Shurri's concerns are entirely addressed.
It's a solution I'm slightly less thrilled about though since just having it all be one button is just copying Gnashing Fang, albeit more often and something you can pool.

You could set up a three step Bloodspiller combo if you like, but as it sounds like you've noticed, you would need to either increase the length on Delirium's buff or reduce the GCD while Delirium is active. You'd need a GCD length of 2.1s to get to your third Bloodspiller before the buff falls off (7 GCDs in 15 seconds). The reason why I suggested doing it with two steps is because 5 GCDs in 15 seconds requires no further alteration to Delirium. You also don't want to get to the point where the new combo replaces most of your standard combo uses.

This is fundamentally different from Gnashing in that your second combo can happen any time you could use Bloodspiller (i.e. any time you consume 50 blood or use Delirium). All that Delirium does is ensure that you can get three upgraded combos off in a row.

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引用元：Archwizard

Hmm. In theory you could sidestep this by having the second combo step instead be an oGCD -- something like "Bloodspiller causes your next Edge of Darkness to change to a more powerful ability" similar to Continuation, and the same for Quietus with Flood.

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Agreed, about the MP difficulties.

Bloodspiller would effectively then need both 50 Blood and 3k MP to fully use. Especially if we didn't want to limit the combo to when used only in Delirium, our >6 Bloodspillers per minute would require >18k MP per minute. We don't nearly have that.

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You could sidestep this by having Delirium temporarily negate the MP cost of such a skill though, I suppose, and perhaps have the upgraded skill have a lower MP cost overall (say 1000-1500MP)?

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Halving the cost sounds pretty good to me. I still have concerns about the basic constraints themselves, though:

We'd lose a lot of our freedom in timing our MP expenditure if we made this sort of tie-in.

Some degree of constraint can be good, offering some further depth, but too tight of constraints just turns the affected tools and their respective resources into one, reducing available depth.

What seems a good equilibrium to you?

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引用元：Lyth

I'm sure that you can come up with some more convoluted Dark Lucky Charms if you tried. But if you're just cycling through ABC combos in sequence to collect those Dark Lucky Charms, then it's bound to play out similarly to PLD's Boring Blade setup.

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Note the "if". There's a good deal of context available here.

I don't know why you're so insistent that the system could only ever be so reduced. It's been made barebone on Endwalker DRK at the expense of SAM mains. It was purposely made barebone in Eorzea's explanation of the structure itself as to focus on just that structure. That doesn't mean that it could only ever be so shallow.

If you apply the same treatment to, say, Dark Arts, it would seem fundamentally incapable of anything but raw potency with shifting zero situational value. It conflates any insufficiency in balancing or context with the system itself being irredeemably flawed.

By all means, feel free to dislike and critique a given framework, but let's not purposely try to view it as incapable of anything more than its most barebone form.

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Enshroud is just the natural evolution of Gnashing Fang. It absolutely is a thousand times better, but I think that the reason why it's so slick is because they had the previous expansion to test out the original concept. But you do have to give credit to GNB's design, as it's a really interesting idea and a step above the original IR approach to burst.

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It's...

• an empowered mode that allows for...
• 4 ST or AoE hits before a...
• powerful finisher with falloff AoE that ends the empowered mode.

...There seems a far more direct progenitor for that than Gnashing Fang.

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The 600 MP gain on Delirium is really just offsets the loss of the single Syphon from the standard combo it replaces. If you double the length of Delirium to Bloodspiller/Torcleaver/Bloodspiller/Torcleaver/Bloodspiller/Torcleaver by adding a combo step, that's six GCDs and two Syphons that you have to replace, unless you give Delirium a GCD reduction effect as well.

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Delirium doesn't just give you 600 MP flat, though. It gives you 200 MP per ST GCD (500 per AoE GCD) under Delirium. At present, it covers all Blood skills. Unless you'd specifically choose not to include Torcleaver under that effect, increasing the number of GCDs under Delirium from 3 to 6 will therefore also increase the MP generated over Delirium from 600 to 1200 (or 1500 to 3000 in AoE), so we shouldn't need to make adjustments for Delirium itself, only for the 3 natural casts.

Alternatively, we could just give the MP generation to Bloodspiller, Torcleaver, and Quietus naturally, removing the MP gen effect from Delirium, and then we've dealt with all of it. We'd have 600 more MP per minute, due to naturals now likewise being MP-neutral, but that's hardly overpowering.

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引用元：Lyth

You'd need a GCD length of 2.1s to get to your third Bloodspiller before the buff falls off (7 GCDs in 15 seconds).

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To be fair, that's assuming Delirium remains as it is and allows exclusively for 3 uses of Bloodspiller/Quietus, with Bloodspiller leading into the combos while being the only part to consume Delirium stacks.

But if Bloodspiller is a combo action, Delirium doesn't necessarily need to allow 3 Bloodspillers, especially if every piece of the combo is a progressively stronger GCD than Bloodspiller. It could allow for one free use of the combo and still be an overall upgrade.

I should think Delirium would have to be redesigned. At the very least, even in your proposed 2-step combo it would have to be redesigned such that it allows MP generation on each GCD even if it's not consuming stacks, since that appears to be the premise you're running under.

I think if you're keen on copying over SAM's lucky charms system, the best thing to do is propose an implementation that works within the framework of our existing system. But I think that you'll still run into the standard 'maintenance combo/damage combo' woes that most jobs have, except on the finisher.

I wouldn't have interpreted Archwizard's suggestion to involve a follow-up oGCD that costs MP. The idea of a GCD/oGCD combo is interesting and it's one that hasn't really been explored outside of perhaps Soul Reaver, and there the payment is only on the first step. Having to save up MP specifically in order to use Blood would have been unnecessarily awkward. That being said, it doesn't address our need for more unique GCDs.

Any change to Bloodspiller is going to naturally influence how the Delirium window plays out. Delirium stacks at present only applies to Bloodspiller/Quietus, so if you added in one or two combo steps, you would just consume the stacks every second/third GCD. It just naturally changes how players execute the window without any alteration to the ability. By definition, any follow up combo action (i.e. Torcleaver) would require you to have previously used Bloodspiller to get the full potency, so there's actually no need to integrate it into Delirium unless you really want to rework it. Let me give you an example.

Torcleaver (Lv. 100 Weaponskill) - Delivers an attack with a potency of 120. Combo Action: Bloodspiller, Combo Potency: x (500+) Combo Bonus: y

Even f I added this action without any alteration to the existing DRK kit, your Delirium window changes because you're going to want to complete the combo before proceeding to the next stack.

The main reason for altering Delirium is to ensure that your MP resource generation remains similar. Now granted, you could always attach MP generation directly to Bloodspiller/Torcleaver itself as was suggested earlier. But if you don't want to do that, the alternative is just increase the MP gain on Delirium, such that each Bloodspiller covers the opportunity cost on a non-resource generating Torcleaver. You're welcome to think of ways to improve on Delirium itself around this, but I was just thinking in terms of how the addition of an action could change our rotation without requiring any full on reworks.

In short, the challenge I'm putting out is this: using only three new action additions and no action reworks, how could you significantly spice up DRK's (GCD) gameplay? There of course will be action reworks in practice, but I think if you start with this mindset you'll get the most value out of the new expansion additions.

Hmmm yeah. I'm trying to keep OGCDs out of the picture in any ideas I think of, because I feel like the formula of "Just give them another raw damage OGCD to slap on cooldown" has reached Maximum Staleness in Endwalker, in addition to how unpleasant these OGCD-packed burst sequences are for players with less fortunate connections or geolocations.

But each option has its own problems.

I think at the end of the day though, the Tank framework seems to be that they're not intended to be particularly complex, so looping back and forth between relatively simple goals doesn't seem like a design issue to me — at least, not unless the entire Tank system is allowed to breathe and expand more.

If you just add more "raw combos", you end up with what could potentially just be a lot of clutter or tacked-on nuisance: Paladin and Warrior only gain a (in my opinion) dull and rote maintenance mechanic out of their extra combo, and Gunbreaker successfully dispensed with it completely.

That's actually something I really appreciated about HW Dark Knight — the subtlety of Delirium vs. Souleater being a decision governed by having foresight about MP. With the decoupling of the DRK OGCD system from the GCD system in Shadowbringers, the opportunities for what you can do to justify combos shrank.

Dancer and Monk show that 'repurposing existing GCDs' is a reasonably successful way to add GCD gameplay without actually adding new combos, which is why my mind went there.

Then there's the Machinist 'it's basically a generic OGCD cooldown but it clocks your GCD' filler GCDs, but that seems like a relatively bland way to just shove in extra actions that are technically GCDs, but only in the sense of how much space they occupy in the rotation loop. (hopefully that made any sense)

And there's the Gunbreaker/Red Mage approach of "cooldown combo", which also seems pretty successful and fun.

I'm trying to think of what else can really be done with GCDs...

I don't know if I really agree with this approach of presuming that DRK needs another GCD-based attack simply because it has fewer of them than other tanks, and then working backwards from there to figure out if and how you can actually do something interesting, fun, or productive with it. I don't really see what problem is being solved here, or what meaningful extension to the class's gameplay is to be gained by figuring out how you could implement Bloodspiller 2 or spin Delirium's GCD-based gameplay as being substantially different from Gnashing Fang's GCD-based gameplay.

I suppose more broadly then, if you were the expansion designer for DRK, and you are allowed to introduce in three new (or upgraded) actions of your choosing, on the condition that you don't alter anything else, how would you freshen up DRK's gameplay? I only suggested GCDs because I've seen recurring complaints that relate to combos and Delirium, but you're welcome to take it in a different direction as well.

You don't actually have to touch anything at all, but there are a lot of creative minds here, so let's see what people come up with.

I would like to remind everyone present that nobody here is the arbiter on what the devs consider to be acceptable standards for a job expansion or rework.

You are free to praise or constructively critique the existing job design, even if that means just saying "I like it as it is" and moving on. Nobody can force you to write an entire rework document to back up saying "I don't like X."
You are free to propose any reworks you come up with, provided you are not attached to them to the point of being disappointed if they are not met and you don't pull the thread off-topic.
You are even free to constructively critique suggestions and proposals other people offer, even from a subjective standpoint of "I wouldn't play this job and here's why."

Personally I think there's value in that last one, since it allows you to examine the job through a new lens, pick apart What Works and What Doesn't Work (both in the existing and proposed iterations), and synthesize together new proposals with feedback. "This was a neat idea, but I really would like to preserve X element of the existing job in particular because that's something I really enjoy about playing it" -- that sets a starting point for where to go next.
Much like comparing notes with the other tank jobs, just with hypothetical ones instead. Give it a fair crack sometime!

But devs aside, nobody can or should impose exacting standards upon anyone, because the only standards you can place upon others are your own. No "you can only create 3 new actions and no buttons" nonsense; who here has the authority to set that standard? What other job reworks or expansions have ever fit such stricture? The devs can go as far as they need and want, they just usually prefer a conservative approach mid-expansion for balance reasons, and it's not like they haven't changed something in a .X only to completely flip it on its head at the next .0 opportunity.
(Yes, DRK is pretty bloated with job actions as-is from an objective standpoint. If someone actually forgets that and proposes 5 new actions we don't have space for on the bar, you are free to point that out in post as a practical concern.)
Literally just be constructive, thoughtful and fair, because this is a feedback forum.

Because here's the kicker: Odds are, 99.99% of such proposals don't actually end up in game. You are at no risk from watching someone go ham... unless it actually gains traction and popularity among the community. And usually, that's because they have a point about the concerns implicit to and inspiring such suggestions, and I have rarely seen game devs implement community suggestions verbatim.

Besides, when it comes to spitballing around these parts, many of us take an iterative approach: Shoot for the moon, re-examine it, then dial it back. Personally I think that's as valid a lens as any, and to start from a restrictive premise just caters to stagnation of ideas.

Very true. I don't pay your sub.

You can post pretty much any suggestion in here that you like. That being said, it probably makes more practical sense to come up with ideas that don't simply completely replace DRK with a completely different job, real or homebrew. I think that this is a good rule of thumb for any job design change.

The reason why I've posed this particular challenge in here is for a couple of reasons. First, this is perfect timing to start thinking about what the next expansion will be like for DRK's gameplay. Second, it challenges you to think about how the addition of an action can interact with the existing toolkit in unique ways to in order to create a significant change to playstyle. This is actually one of the things that I think has been pretty smart about BLM's design over the years.

The three action limit that I suggested is based off of what we've actually seen this expansion in Endwalker. We've also seen them trend away from removing actions and towards upgrading them to keep action counts constant. DRK has been a bit behind on the action counts compared to say PLD since Stormblood, so there's probably still some room for a couple of new actions. But who knows, they might all just be animation upgrades.

I will say that I have seen a number of job action ideas bounced around on the forums and ultimately make their way in game shortly after, so either there's a lot of lucky coincidences going around, or perhaps they do look at some of the feedback in here.

At the end of the day, this is still a challenge, which means that it's been entirely optional from the moment I suggested it. I've done this sort of suggestion thread as its own separate thread each expansion since Stormblood (wait, that's not Ingress/Egress in there, is it?), but since there are so many volunteer job designs in here for DRK, we might as well carry on that same momentum in here.

You don't have to follow the constraints that I've suggested, but I think if you try them out yourself, you'll come up with something stronger and even more interesting for it.

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引用元：Lyth

You don't have to follow the constraints that I've suggested, but I think if you try them out yourself, you'll come up with something stronger and even more interesting for it.

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As long as we don't miss the forest for the trees. The emphasis of such thought exercises should be on being constructive -- refining the ideas into a purer form rather than simply restricting them, which is a bead I feel some of your challenges have lost.

I've given it some thought, at any rate. None of my propositions would actually help without modifying other abilities. I personally don't think we could create a fresher DRK without giving some hefty changes to it.

What else I propose is actually with Blood Weapon and Dark Arts. This is a bit of spitball that I'm thinking of as I go. Instead of keeping them separate, maybe we could merge them into something larger.

This would be the biggest damage period your burst phase essentially, and it'll last roughly 15 seconds.

We'll call it "Dark Rampage", for lack of a better name, open for suggestions. the cooldown is 60s and costs 15s of darkside, and is meant to be used on cooldown. This would also give you some dark aura or animation around you like inner release for flavor.

What this would do:
-These combos will start with the first ability listed, and each ability that i list after will just replace the ability before it. (for simplicity, I'm referring to how the basic combo works in pvp)

- for every Weaponskill or Spell landed while in this state, you gain 600mp

-For every ability landed with these combos, you gain one stack of Dark Arts. There is a gauge which displays how many stacks you have. These Dark Arts stacks empower your biggest damaging move, Eventide. Lets say the default potency of Eventide is 700, the potency with all 5 stacks is 850. Eventide remains the same animation and range at 30y

Respectively (and the order may be adjusted for how powerful they feel compared to others in the listing):
- Spinning Slash -> (old) Delirium -> Power Slash -> Bloodspiller -> Scourge

- Salted Earth(same 15s duration) -> Salt and Darkness -> Tar Pit -> Quietus -> Shadowbringer

The idea is that every ability you use is stronger than the last, so the potency will get higher and higher.

For every edge or flood of shadow you use, it reduces the cooldown on "Dark Rampage" by 5 seconds.

Carve and spit and Abyssal Drain both have 2 charges and remain on the same 60s cooldown.

All of this in mind, yes this means the mana cost gets removed from TBN, and therefore its cooldown is upped to 20 or 25 seconds. It isn't something that was hard to use with the mana cost to begin with, but having the edge/flood of shadow decreasing the cooldown of "Dark Rampage" by 5s every time would make people just flat out not use TBN because the 5s is guaranteed with edge/flood, but if we keep the system of "free edge/flood", it isn't guaranteed, so people will go for the easier, and instant, option.

Again, this is just a spitball, feel free to make critiques and ideas, expand on it, etc. All of this would be way too overpowered as it stands, and requires potency adjustments across the board.

I wouldn't worry too much about specific costs, potencies, dps, and action adjustments at this point, because that's the sort of thing that comes out in testing.

In short, you have:
1. Dark Rampage as a new 60s burst window
2. Eventide as a finisher

There's long been demand for a 'dark aura' effect dating back to Heavensward. I presume that you'd probably end up upgrading Blood Weapon into the new action. Would there be any interaction with Delirium or Living Shadow? If I use Eventide while Living Shadow is up, for example, is there some way that Frey can contribute to the effect before disappearing?

Limited to three actions and two traits, though I'd personally introduce the concept sooner.

82
Scourge
Weaponskill
Effect: Deals 100 potency to the target and all targets within 5y of it.
Additional effect: Marks enemies with Another Victim for 45s. The mark intensifies every 3 seconds, gaining 1 stack.
Another Victim: Resets the mark's intensity to 1, increasing Scourge's potency by 30 per stack at time of execution.

84
Sins Aplenty
Trait
Effect: Certain skills increase Another Victim's intensity.

Affected skills: Edge of Shadow, Flood of Shadow, Shadowbringer, Unmend, Unleash, Stalwart Soul, Abyssal Drain (The answer to your question is yes.)

86
Blackened Blade
Weaponskill
Cost: 50 Blood
Effect: Deals 200 Potency to the target and 50% damage to all targets within 5y of it.
Another Victim: Gains 20 potency per intensity, healing for the damage dealt, consuming the mark.

88
Bloodsoaked
Trait
Effect: Blacked Blade grants Sole Survivor, at intensity equal to the the highest instance of Another Victim consumed.

Bloodspiller and Quietus gains the following:
Sole Survivor: Consume the status, creating a shield equal to Intensity x 50 potency for 8s. When the shield breaks or expires, deal damage around you equal to 1/2 the initial potency.

90
Eventide
Spell
Effect: Deal damage in a line extending 10y behind you and 10y in front of you, dealing 300 Potency. Living Shadow performs the skill in tandem from its location. Only usable while Living Shadow is active.
Another Victim: Consumes the mark, dealing an additional 30 potency per intensity, mirrored by the Shadow.
===
IMO, while a little janky, this adds more minute windows for Dark Knights to work around while making Living Shadow more than a Fire and Frayget skill.

You have a basic skill application and detonator in Scourge, you have more situational use in Blackblade + Qiuetus/Bloodspiller, and you have the Big Sword window while Living Shadow is out, with the goal of maximizing intensity for a tag team sky splitter.

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引用元：Crater

I don't know if I really agree with this approach of presuming that DRK needs another GCD-based attack simply because it has fewer of them than other tanks

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That's not really the motivation, there's been a lot of explanations for why the focus is on GCDs:

• Assuming you're not deleting actions, what OGCD space does Dark Knight still have to expand with? Shadowbringer already felt superfluous and tacked-on, and the MP bar gives Dark Knight a lot of constraints on room to breathe in burst windows.

• GCD space has shown a lot of promise in adding fresh mechanics to other Jobs in successful ways in recent expansions. Due to the structure that GCDs have vs. the free-form vomit that OGCDs tend to be approached with, it seems to give SE more 'meat' to work with in a design.

• I've seen numerous complaints from all over Dark Knight discussion spaces that repeating the Souleater combo ad-nauseum is trying some players's patience, so another motivation is to try to break up that monotony, which additional OGCDs won't help with.

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引用元：Lyth

I wouldn't worry too much about specific costs, potencies, dps, and action adjustments at this point, because that's the sort of thing that comes out in testing.

In short, you have:
1. Dark Rampage as a new 60s burst window
2. Eventide as a finisher

There's long been demand for a 'dark aura' effect dating back to Heavensward. I presume that you'd probably end up upgrading Blood Weapon into the new action. Would there be any interaction with Delirium or Living Shadow? If I use Eventide while Living Shadow is up, for example, is there some way that Frey can contribute to the effect before disappearing?

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The delirium ability itself gets reverted back into it's old animation, and it's just potency instead of having a debuff tacked onto it. I did make it a part of the combo in the burst after all.

As for Living Shadow, I didn't actually think that far in. I've always kind wanted for Fray to duplicate every action that we do when we perform them, like Bunshin. The execution of this, though, I am unsure how and would love to hear ideas on it.
i.e
-He would appear out of our character model itself as an actual shadow OR we still summon him but it's more instant. like he appears as if he separates from our character model and merges back with us when his timer is up..

With my proposal in mind, I think we would just be able to do away with the Blood gauge and instead make it the Dark Arts "gauge" (although it's more of a counter at any rate) and just make Fray a 2 minute cooldown

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引用元：Zairava

snip

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I have to comment twice here since I can't edit on mobile (I'm not near my chromebook)

My idea for said gauge would be that it would be connected to the Darkside gauge upon unlocking the DA gauge. Given the blood gauge gets removed in the first place

Yeah, that is my number 1 pet peeve on these forums, shooting down criticism if you don't write a cringey rework suggestion document no one will actually read. It's not the movie critics job to go reshoot and edit a scene that they don't like, the point of criticism is to figure out what doesn't work. The movie director will then do whatever they will with that.

You can't ask forum feedback to design a game either, it's the game developers job.

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引用元：ThorneDynasty

It's not the movie critics job to go reshoot and edit a scene that they don't like, the point of criticism is to figure out what doesn't work. The movie director will then do whatever they will with that.

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Sure, but it is the movie critic's job to clearly illustrate why they don't like a scene or what specifically they don't like about it. For instance, "this is a weird divet in a character's arc and not at all where the story was leading," or "the scene is hard to follow along because X and Y are happening all at once, W has no impact on the rest of the plot and Z is a plot hole," or "So-and-so didn't emote and had weird line readings, and it dragged down the whole scene." They may even suggest what they expected from a characterization, or what plot elements to trim or emphasize earlier, or say "Show us more of X in the sequel."

Constructive feedback should be actionable, not just critical. Otherwise, as Lyth has made the point before, the devs can't know what you object to and just hear "rip everything out root and stem."

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引用元：Lyth

I suppose more broadly then, if you were the expansion designer for DRK, and you are allowed to introduce in three new (or upgraded) actions of your choosing, on the condition that you don't alter anything else, how would you freshen up DRK's gameplay? I only suggested GCDs because I've seen recurring complaints that relate to combos and Delirium, but you're welcome to take it in a different direction as well.

You don't actually have to touch anything at all, but there are a lot of creative minds here, so let's see what people come up with.

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Here are my ideas in a simple way, that makes the general gameplay smoother in my humble opinion.
->Removed Dark Mind
->Changed the functionality of Living Shadow and Abyssal Drain.
->Added Scourge

Enhanced Oblation - Trait
-> Increases Oblation's damage reduction to 15%, duration to 12 seconds and grants a heal over time of 200 potency. ( 200 * 4 = 800 potency heal total )

Reason: Oblation is an augment to TBN, meaning you generally use it at the same time as you use TBN to get more value. If you used it and TBN doesn't break, than using just Oblation is better. TBN acts as DRK's strong, personal mitigation, however before Oblation got introduced, you had Dark Mind which acted like an Oblation but only to magic. So at this point to mitigate something which is ( best case scenario ) magic damage you got to use TBN + Oblation + Dark Mind, which barely puts you on the same level as a PLD using Sentinel + Holly Sheltron, despite pushing 3 buttons. On the OGCD heavy job...

Abyssal Drain - Ability
->Deals damage with a potency of 150 to target and all enemies nearby it.
->Gradually restores HP depending on the number of enemies hit, across 15 seconds. Each enemy hit grants a heal over time potency of 200.

Reason: Using Abyssal Drain every 60 seconds is too rare, so either making it available more often, or changing its effect to a regen.

Scourge - Ability
->Delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
Additional Effect: Damage over time
Potency: 60
Duration: 18s
Combo action: Syphon Strike

Reason: Now you have to do something while not having Delirium up.

Living Shadow - Ability, Lasts 24 seconds
Merge with Fray to become one with your inner darkness.
-> Increases the potencies of all attacks by 250 potency.
-> At level 88, the potency is increased to 300 via Enhanced Living Shadow.
-> Darkside passive is increased from 10% -> 20% more damage, while under the effect of Living Shadow - given by the trait Enhanced Living Shadow II.

Reason: With this change players should feel more in control and feel like they are the ones actually doing the damage.

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引用元：Archwizard

Sure, but it is the movie critic's job to clearly illustrate why they don't like a scene or what specifically they don't like about it. For instance, "this is a weird divet in a character's arc and not at all where the story was leading," or "the scene is hard to follow along because X and Y are happening all at once, W has no impact on the rest of the plot and Z is a plot hole," or "So-and-so didn't emote and had weird line readings, and it dragged down the whole scene." They may even suggest what they expected from a characterization, or what plot elements to trim or emphasize earlier, or say "Show us more of X in the sequel."

Constructive feedback should be actionable, not just critical. Otherwise, as Lyth has made the point before, the devs can't know what you object to and just hear "rip everything out root and stem."

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That's not the same thing as explaining exactly how, say, the script should be rewritten. You can simply say "the character's motivation for doing X was not established" and it's a perfectly good criticism, the critic doesn't then need to write the character's backstory. "Darkside is a completely pointless system that the player doesn't engage with" is valid without coming up with a whole new system. If the dev's hands need to be held to that degree on how to "interpret" criticism, this game is dying.

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引用元：ThorneDynasty

If the dev's hands need to be held to that degree on how to "interpret" criticism, this game is dying.

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It would be pretty reasonable to argue that job design is indeed dying and largely for that exact reason. Most large changes end up including as many steps back as forward precisely because context, understanding of kit nuance, and critical reading skills go suspiciously missing somewhere down the communication tunnel.

Doing something to counter that issue isn't our obligation, but it is something we can do. That doesn't mean coming up with any and every concrete detail (and generally, laying out thresholds in optimal behavior is more useful than a smattering of potencies... from which we'd simply attempt to judge optimal behavior anyways), but including context and giving at least some vivid illustration of the ideas is certainly helpful -- especially to refining our preferences here.

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引用元：ThorneDynasty

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I agree on your main point, that the consumer helps define the design problem, but not its solution.

That being said, feedback isn't always negative. Sometimes the design problem comes down to how to implement something that players really want to see in game that doesn't yet exist.

Part of this game's strength as an MMO comes from series nostalgia. That's why it's one of the criteria that features in the game's marketing surveys. I remember seeing a Magitek Reaper run past me in Western Thanalan back in 2013, and instantly recognized it from my childhood memories of FFVI's art. A few expansions ago, one of the things that MCH players discussed was the idea around using Edgar's tools as part of the job's toolkit. That's one of the things that's since made its way into the game, and it's a really charming addition. I'd actually love to see more references brought in from other games in the series. What would it be like to use Cloud's Omnislash, Tifa's Dolphin Kick, Squall's Lionheart, Noctis' Warp Strike, Gafgarion's Shadowblade/Duskblade, or Celes' Runic? Could you do something interesting with the likes of Reflect or Float?

There are gameplay related points worth discussing as well. This expansion, one of the design goals was to make tank cooldowns that rewarded you for correctly timing their use. Most of the new Lv. 82 upgrades have a 4s window where you mitigate extra damage. It's a neat idea, but pressing a mitigation button at the last second doesn't really add anything to skill expression. If anything, for longer recast cooldowns you generally want to catch the tankbuster on the last few seconds, to trigger the recast cooldown early. You might pop Rampart 18 s before a tankbuster lands so that you have it up again 18 s earlier. What if we took this a step further and suggest that if a tank correctly times a short recast mitigation move on a 'red arrow' tankbuster, it temporarily unlocks a special counter attack along the same lines as BLU's Cold Fog/Chelonian Gate?

The dev team can absolutely figure out the specifics. That's why I wouldn't waste my time going into potencies and recasts. But if there's something that you want to see gameplay-wise in game that hasn't been done yet, putting it out there simply plants the seeds of the idea. The dev team can decide for themselves whether it's worth bearing fruit.

I'm not sure if its me that's a terrible tank (I don't really play them at all), but I've been wall to wall pulling as DRK and I just feel like I'm taking more damage that I should? I've been using a cooldown such as rampart + the blackest night but I still feel I take too much damage. I don't know what or if I'm doing something wrong

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引用元：NemuNemu14

I'm not sure if its me that's a terrible tank (I don't really play them at all), but I've been wall to wall pulling as DRK and I just feel like I'm taking more damage that I should? I've been using a cooldown such as rampart + the blackest night but I still feel I take too much damage. I don't know what or if I'm doing something wrong

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If you're in level 82+ content...you're not doing anything wrong, DRK just has no sustain. WAR can pop Bloodwhetting and get a ton of HP back quickly along with the insane heal from Equilibrium, PLD can just do their Holy Circle spam and get HP back per cast along with the regen from Holy Sheltron, GNB can use Aurora and HoC to heal themselves. DRK has no equivalent to any of that, and it's VERY noticeable in dungeon pulls.

At best you can kinda use living dead as a healing cooldown once every 5 minutes. About as close to a bloodwhetting I'm going to get I guess. I did a stupid and solo'd Eden Ramuh for WT on DRK over the course of 20 minutes.

When life gives you breadcrumbs, I flop on the ground.

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引用元：RyuDragnier

If you're in level 82+ content...you're not doing anything wrong, DRK just has no sustain. WAR can pop Bloodwhetting and get a ton of HP back quickly along with the insane heal from Equilibrium, PLD can just do their Holy Circle spam and get HP back per cast along with the regen from Holy Sheltron, GNB can use Aurora and HoC to heal themselves. DRK has no equivalent to any of that, and it's VERY noticeable in dungeon pulls.

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Yeah, I'm really have trouble, and I attempted to wall to wall pull in the lvl 87 dungeon and we wiped like 2 times.. But I feel like if I don't wall to wall I'll have the party members screaming at me. My gear is updated too, this is awful

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引用元：NemuNemu14

Yeah, I'm really have trouble, and I attempted to wall to wall pull in the lvl 87 dungeon and we wiped like 2 times.. But I feel like if I don't wall to wall I'll have the party members screaming at me. My gear is updated too, this is awful

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It's less self-sustaining, meaning that you might even need 2-3 GCD heals, but you still shouldn't be dying short of getting a bad healer.

I died all of twice in dungeon-leveling from 80 to 90 on this character and my tank alt, both times because my healer (a Sage, then a SCH) decided to pump all their bankable healing resources into me after I'd already popped Living Dead (macroed with text and sound effects, btw), narrowly preventing it from going off. For context, leveling GNB on my alt likewise purely through Endwalker dungeons had just as many deaths, none of which were the kit's fault. I simply actually needed the occasional GCD heal on DRK, up from none on PLD or WAR.

DRK does of course deserve more self-healing, but its lack isn't so great that you'd die from it unless you or your healer are making notable mistakes. It's just a matter of 1-3 GCD heals worth of potency over the course of a minute-long fight relative to other kits.

:: Note that a Cure II, for instance, is worth 1040 tank potency in healing (1.3*800), due to healer traits; a single CritAdlo, 2691 tank healing potency (1.3*(300*1.5(1+1.8+1.8)). An Aurora is barely a GCD heal. The whole pre-90 Req phase, barely 2. Those are not insurmountable advantages. With updated gear and properly rotated mitigation, you should do fine.

If you're uncomfortable with doing a complete wall-to-wall pull while levelling, that's fine. Most people don't have a problem with you deliberately breaking up certain bigger pulls, so long as there's a continuous flow between them. The only real problem is indecisiveness, like having long pauses before a pull, or deciding after you've stopped that you want to pull a bigger set.

Just make a mental note of where you wiped previously and why (i.e. Was it attrition and you didn't have any cooldowns left over? Or did you get spiked down with cooldowns still available?) Wiping is fine as long as someone in the group is actually learning something from it. You'll be doing a lot of that across all levels of content. If you tank for long enough, you'll have stoneskin.

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If I had to come up with a list of things that I want to see next expansion on DRK, they would be, in no particular order:

1) An additional movement tool
2) An additional combo
3) A burst finisher
4) Expanded functionality for either Dark Mind or Missionary
5) Some sort of Dark Aura effect
6) Interactions with Living Shadow

How might this work?

Lv. 92 Torcleaver (Weaponskill): Combo action off of Bloodspiller. Restores HP/MP. Each use increases the duration of the next Living Shadow timer.

Lv. 96 Wraithform: Upgrades Dark Mind. Increases movement speed and prevents knockback effects. Next weaponskill used has increased range (20y) and pulls you to target.

or

Lv. 96 Blood Armor: Upgrades Dark Mind. % Damage reduction progressively increases with every attack performed or received while active. Ending the buff restores HP based on accumulated resistance.

Lv. 100 Eventide (Weaponskill): Becomes available only when Delirium ends. If used when Living Shadow is active, ends the ability with a combination attack. Damage dealt by Frey depends on remaining Living Shadow timer.