Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

Think my last three~ weeks of A8N had tanks decimating at least half the party with Single Buster.

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

With a whm in party the balls should never be an issue. A cleric stance Assize from dead center hits all the balls and even slightly under-geared whm will take 20% off all the targets (ilvl synced I do about 30%). There's not really enough outgoing damage before that point to justify using assize as a healing skill anyways, so imo it's the best spot to use it.

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I think that's what happened on our amazing last run as I noticed they were mostly half down before I got to them. I'm gonna try running it again with a friend tonight I think - will see how it goes this time!

I experienced a Void Ark run today where the tank in alliance A pulled Echidna right away and locked out one of our healers (alliance C) and our other healer sat near the entrance and refused to heal anyone since his/her buddy got locked out.

Got out of a WoD, we were on the last boss and 4 people in our party went down including the MT. Our remaining healer could have LB3'd and got our group up in time to deal with the stand in circles, I asked them to and they didn't, and the raid ended up wiping from the explosions. Party decides for w/e reason, that we suddenly didn't have an LB3 (even though we did when the MT went down, which was when I asked). And starts freaking on me for my suggestion.

So w/e, don't answer them. We pull again. It goes fine. We ended up losing the MT the next pull in the same spot because the healers ran to the back to deal with circles instead of healing the MT. I then died shortly after from being 2nd in the aggro line. And I got a bunch of "how did you die when no one else even got hit you must suck". Because, you know, auto attacks and tank busters can be stepped out of now I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So Tuesday reset which means back to midas grinding. *sighs* I invited one of my FC mates who is a scholar and got Arm of son. Hey no biggie, I thought. Everything when smooth but.... One person got marked and stood near the adds. 3 people (Including me) didn't know the marked guy stood near the adds and got carried to a cage. All of us wiped and I put a "lol" at the party chat. Its only our first wipe and it was only a mistake. One healer made sure he was displeased before he left followed by a tank. They were replaced very quickly and kill the boss before 2 ball weights dropped. Why so uptight about a first wipe? Not like we wiped 10 times in a row :|

So went to Antitower yesterday and had 2 bards, a scholar and a warrior tank. I was the bard and scholar was my FC mate. The tank we had was very unusual. Pulled adds and used nothing else but PLAIN storm's eye again, again and again D:
Adds went to attack me, my FC mate and the other bard but tank doesn't pull them back. It was my first time dying yesterday before going to the first boss. Tank did not respond nor talk so my FC mate sat out of the ring. Feeling bad for the other bard, i went in for a fun wipe.
Straight kick out the damn tank and we explained to the other bard which he/she replied that its fine. Brought a tank from my FC and we cleared the dungeon smoothly. Oh and before we kicked the tank out we check out his stats and found he uses slaying accessories and meld dexterity to his equipment. :\
I was like whattttttt???

LotA earlier: I'm in as PLD for the exp, with a 4-person premade. As usual, I start by turning on Sword Oath so I'm not fighting the other tanks for aggro. Get to bone dragon without incident. Then....the MT at that time pulls the boss to the door. First set of skeletons goes OK, but not great (2-3 get through), then the dragon dies well before some of the second set of skeletons do plus other skellies are too close to each other, and almost everyone dies. There's an attempt at recovery, someone shouts that the dragon needs to be pulled to the middle (it doesn't move), so I shout for the MT to pull it to the middle. What happened next looks to me like one of the other tanks provoked and pulled to the middle..then the first tank gets it back - and proceeds to intentionally pull the boss out of the middle again. We wipe (too many dead by then), and salt ensues. After that, someone gives me the "X" marker, so I agree and proceed to MT the remaining bosses, with no further issues.

TL;DR: I start LotA intending to OT as usual, original MT gets us wiped (with some help from the DPS and other OTs) and I get asked to MT, so I do. Outside of the one wipe, was a nice, smooth run. :)

--Erim Nelhah

Speaking of first times on Gilgamesh - My first run of Singularity Reactor (norm) on Gilgamesh started off something like this:

Me: I'm probably best off OT'ing this....
Other player: You can MT it, go for it! :)
Me: In my ~i170 gear?
WAR: Heck with it, I'll MT.

We make the boss faceplant in short order.

The reason I didn't want to MT? I knew what DPS and OT I'd likely have to hold threat against. 50+ ilvls isn't a trivial difference to overcome. :)

--Erim Nelhah

My first time trying Pharos Sirius (Hard), I was a healer in DF. I identify myself as the new person and ask to take it slow. The tank just jumps down and grabs everything at the start. The DPS and I rush behind them, and the tank dies. They promptly quit. This was the first time that happened to me. We cleared that (fortunately, visually and musically beautiful) dungeon with very little time to spare (we got a tank in time for the boss with cannons), and to this day I remember the name of the tank character that just bailed because they couldn't speed run on DF.

I blamed myself and was super nervous and insecure for some time, until it became clear that a large pull at the start of Pharos HM is usually a death sentence without attack power that most parties shouldn't be expected to have.

My game wife recently motivated herself to finish leveling DRK (she's 54, I'm 60), so I go DRK as well and pop trial roulette, promising her the main tank experience.

It drops us in Steps of Faith.

Load in and one person's watching a cutscene, and someone in the chat says they're new. Healer #2 disconnects long before the cutscene ends. Does not return. So I figure we have one absent, one new, and six relatively intelligent people in the party. Wife pulls because we can't kick for five minutes. People have solo healed this, right?

It becomes obvious that more than one of these other people are either new or otherwise clueless. On the first pull, nobody manned a cannon, nobody fired a dragonkiller, nobody tripped snares, and even our exploding barrels missed, which I've never seen before. They just went at the adds and Vishap with whatever their normal skill sets gave them, with me stupidly trying to control the adds and bring them up to the cannons that nobody was manning anyway. That pull failed with Vishap destroying the gate at 10%.

Insert long yet fairly simple explanation of fight mechanics. A few people drop out, a few join in, we kick the absent healer. Right about the time I finish my explanation, the monk that was playing chicken with the boss finally face pulls it, and we're off again. It's still bloody chaos, but I tried to call things off as they came up. We landed one dragonkiller, one of the guys learned how to use a cannon (just one) and then forgot later, one finally figured out you could release and port back into the fight, and at the end of it I wound up sacrificing somebody to trip the last set of snares (because, y'know, no cannon people). Still spent most of the fight running around on fumes, and on this pull, Vishap died about two seconds before he would have destroyed the Arc again.

All I can say after that is...I really hope the new people were still in there and got their clears.

Had some awesome roulette experience yesterday (some that reminded me why I'm not doing roulettes alone anymore but with at least one good dps-friend). So me (PLD) and my BLM-friend are making our way through roulettes...

Expert first! We get Lost City HM and a WHM&bard. While the healer is just freaking lazy (as in: no dps for most of the part etc.) the bard is dealing less damage than me. He forgot WM, turned Foes on when I asked for it (happy blm-friend though!), used WM later but dropped it from time to time for no reason, didnt used any buffs, didnt kept his crit-rate-buff up, used the "wrong" AoE and all in all played weird, if not to say: bad. I tried to give him some hints and even if he thanked me for those he still didnt followed them...
...but thats nothing compared to our level 50! We get Qarn HM with two green leafes (Scholar&SMN) and a bonus message - both are french so I figure I probably dont have to bother to much with explaining. I pull and notice someone is missing - there is no Egi! So I ask for it, using auto-translate. No reaction. The SMN is also not applying his dots, not having etherflow up and infact mostly casting Ruin II and nothing else. I ask a few more times for his Egi so that there would be at least a little bit damage coming from his direction but... nothing... finally I ask the scholar to ask for the egi in french. Still nothing. We leave the dungeon a bit confused - and agreed that this player either was not older than 6 or in some form mentally disabled (I actually mean this and not as some sort of insult but rather as explantion for myself how and why someone could ignore the chat and be happy with only pressing one button for 30 minutes).

http://puu.sh/oOVqO/362b19c78c.png

I literally cannot. I...

That speed was insane even by my standards...

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

http://puu.sh/oOVqO/362b19c78c.png

I literally cannot. I...

That speed was insane even by my standards...

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If you have 2 casters + WHM that's not that insane I had a run pretty similar to that earlier this week in a group with a WAR, WHM, SMN and BLM

WoD, first boss, me as BLM.
I got marked with that Death AOE, nobody was running out of it, I died.
I got raised, soon after I got marked with Flare, again nobody bothered to move out, I died again.
Another raise. Meanwhile, the MT and another tank started pingponging the boss without me noticing it, so while I cast my Blizz3 to heal mana, the other tank pointed it to me and even before I could finish my cast, I got blast off by that laser beam.
Third raise. This time I lived long enough to actually cast some Fires before I got marked with Death again. Guess what happened next.
I hate people.

Oh, and my trial roulette, which I was doing on AST, brought me to Sephirot HM the other day, which I healed exactly once before, so I was a bit nervous. I had a look at the party and noticed a dragoon watching the cutscene (and later claiming he was new) as well as a paladin with about 16k HP. People asked them if their gear was broken before the other paladin noticed that their right side was full i240 slaying accessories. I, a bit puzzled, asked if strengh tanks are still a thing, the 16k paladin answered, "beat me I'm an i235 dragoon". And they died like a dragoon by falling off the platform.

Lost City HM
3 wipes before the 1st boss.... tells everything.

Had a nice couple of runs of Quarn last night. Levelling my WHM still, just hit 38 and got shroud :)

1st run was so smooth, we had a mentor in the party who had really earned their crown and were so helpful. Didn't even realise that at the start there's a bit that will tell you what to put in the scales at the end (y'know, if it's ever not flame and fruit :P). Made sure to mention I hadn't healed on this one before so to shout if I needed to change what I was doing and they just asked I focus on heals, I said no worries and off we went. After judging what I could get away with I managed to pop Aero on most things then heal a bit, do some DPS then back to heals. Everyone always seems to forget about the bees... Damn bees... but, no one died! :) Said sorry when Tank almost died from one bee but they were all very positive and said I was keeping a good balance between DPS and heals and they were happy and tbh they were one of the most coordinated parties I've run that dungeon with so was an absolute pleasure :) wish I could have chucked them all a commendation :D

2nd run was a bit more interesting, last run before bed since my bf had not long gotten home from work, I wanted to stick with WHM so he said he'd tank on DRK. He was a little squishy but hit the level while we were in there that he had his next lot of gear for and updated his stuff and was pretty easy to keep him alive, especially since we're on the phone when we play so I could warn him to dodge a bit more or be a bit more defensive if i'm struggling. The run was ok apart from the odd Machinist... always using spread shot... Like even on one enemy. I'm in no way an expert with MCH but i've picked it up and done the first 2 job quests so I know it's not hugely different to the archer side of my BRD, I always do an aoe to start so i've got all the enemies on my radar then focus the same enemy as everyone else and knock 'em down quickly. But anyway - probably should have mentioned it to him but the other DPS (NIN) was doing decent damage so it didn't make much difference. But then he lb'd... on one normal enemy... me and bf were just "wait, what's that line? is he limit breaking? what... why!? right before the 2nd boss? and then again right before the last boss????" no words :| made us chuckle though :P

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Originally Posted by sayafrost

Lost City HM
3 wipes before the 1st boss.... tells everything.

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new healer and tank pulls the entire dungeon I assume?

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

LotA earlier [...] dragon needs to be pulled to the middle

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Huh. That's a new one for me. Every time I've run it, the dragon gets pulled to the furthest end of the arena (not sure if that's what you meant with "to the door" or if you meant the entrance) and the skellies are supposed to get pulled to the edges mainly on the entrance side to give them longer ways to run (not that people seem to bother with that now)... I guess different data centres have different standard tactics ^^

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Huh. That's a new one for me. Every time I've run it, the dragon gets pulled to the furthest end of the arena (not sure if that's what you meant with "to the door" or if you meant the entrance) and the skellies are supposed to get pulled to the edges mainly on the entrance side to give them longer ways to run (not that people seem to bother with that now)... I guess different data centres have different standard tactics ^^

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It's a datacenter difference. When I played on Malboro (Primal) it was generally pulled to the far wall. Here on Gilgamesh (Aether), it's generally kept in the middle. In neither case, however, is/was it generally pulled to the door (yes, the entrance).

--Erim Nelhah

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

It's a datacenter difference. When I played on Malboro (Primal) it was generally pulled to the far wall. Here on Gilgamesh (Aether), it's generally kept in the middle. In neither case, however, is/was it generally pulled to the door (yes, the entrance).

--Erim Nelhah

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I've seen all 3 scenarios on Primal DC. Pulling the Dragon to the door is just the opposite of the first scenario you mentioned (i.e. instead of pulling skeletons to entrance you pull them to the furthest points from the entrance). It's easier for OTs to adjust to where the dragon is being tanked than to yell at the MT to place him into a specific location imho. Just pull the skeletons away from the dragon and make sure you don't overlap them, the biggest fail I see on that fight is DPS ignoring adds leaving it to healers and tanks to try to kill them before the dragon dies.

In-progress level 50 roulette (30min elapsed). SV HM, 2nd boss. Gave new guy a brief explanation but needed a translator. He didn't understand that he needed to use cannon. One wipe but we got it 2nd try.

Then we get to trash with 2 aevis, and everytime they do the huge aoe skill, he drops to 25% hp. I don't understand how/why. All his gear is i110 except for one lvl39 dex ring. Surely, that isn't enough to make him take such damage? He had less than half of my hp. I basically had to spam helios when we got to the triple aevis.

Last boss, I mentioned to others that they should give him a heads up because I was expecting him to get one hit-dead/KO. Which did happen, thrice. XD Not to be mean, but it was kinda funny. I gave him, protect, stoneskin, asp benefic, asp helios, but he still died. After it ended, I wanted to give him advice, but language barrier.. So I just thanked him and left him the loot, although it was for healer.. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Iifa

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I'm assuming his equipment must have broke at some point.

Seph HM for trial roulette.. Had some new people. We lost both healers at the first jump, but everyone kept trying anyway. Two of the DPS died, so it was to the two tanks (pld), a mnk, and me on drg.

I died around 20% I believe - I got marked for earthshakers and moved to the far left edge, and my friend (pld) also got marked, and was so focused on healing people, he stood too close to me. I didn't want to move closer to try to get free space, and was worried I'd hit the other two if I tried to run to the right.. So I died.

The plds did a badass job of keeping themselves (and the monk) up with clemency, but the mnk went down around 5%. Everyone was cheering on the plds as HP slooowly dwindled down.. They managed to kill it when it was slamming fists / knocking them to the sides, when they were both around 20% HP. They probably would not have survived add phase.

That feeling of betrayal, though. >:'|

Sometimes, being a WHM in DF feels like this: https://i.imgur.com/fouRYLY.png

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Originally Posted by FabricioRF

Sometimes, being a WHM in DF feels like this: https://i.imgur.com/fouRYLY.png

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Yup, like that when tank ignore adds and doesn't take them back which in our mind " Guess I am the tank now?"

This happened to me in yesterday in Haukke Manor NM, last boss tank ignored adds I tanked them while watching the party HP. I don't mind this in low level dungeons since I'm still a WHM with a tank mind. xD

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Originally Posted by FabricioRF

Sometimes, being a WHM in DF feels like this: https://i.imgur.com/fouRYLY.png

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I've seen healers that think they are dps and I have to pop every cd I have in low level dungeons. Apparently in the DF, a WHM can do all 3 roles.

This isn't one particular run, but rather, every single run. I can shrug off one guy every now and then that does something that bugs me. But this is every single person. So I have to get this off my chest.

When I play as a warrior, I've very aware when I party with a ninja. Just the same, when I play as ninja, I'm aware when I play with a warrior.
As a ninja, I make sure not to do my slashing debuff if the warrior did it, since the slashing debuff is my weakest combo finisher and the warrior's strongest. Therefore, no point to use it.
But when I play as a warrior, because the slash debuff finisher is my strongest, I always get upset when a ninja uses his. He's lowering his own damage for no gain. I still need to use mine because it's a DpS increase, so all that it is is a loss for him. So why is he doing it? Isn't he seeing that his debuff is gone as soon as he uses it? Isn't he cursing all that potency lost? Is he mindlessly pressing buttons? How is he keeping any of his bleeds up if he isn't looking at the boss? Is this all just automated for him? I have so many questions, but I'm so annoyed that he's not accepting the free damage I'm provided that I can't think of any answers!
Note I never have this problem when playing with another warrior. They seem to get it.


Then there's playing with melee DpS. I can get not wanting to limit break immediately; dps is an involved job and you don't want to stop what you're doing to do something that someone else could do. But there's a difference between not touching it for a few seconds, and letting a quarter of the fight go by with a full limit break bar. It got to a point where we hit enrage on Brute Justice at 2% with a full limit break bar. If they just used it, we could have had another clear and four of us could have gone home. And if they used it immediately, we'd probably have a lv1 limit break built up that we could use.
Melee. Use your limit break. It's free damage. Even if it messes up your combo, you're coming out ahead.


Finally, healers that AoE heal right as soon as the boss spawns. This happens seemingly all the time, and always causes at least one death. It takes me around seven seconds to secure threat. That's a ton of time for a boss to be chasing a healer around, and there's nothing I can do about it. So if you AoE heal before the tank has a chance to touch it, you're going to die, and it's nobody's fault but your own. You should know better by now. Wait until someone takes damage before you heal.


There, that's the major things. Every run I've had to deal with these. And I just wish it would stop.

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Originally Posted by zmandude24

I've seen healers that think they are dps and I have to pop every cd I have in low level dungeons. Apparently in the DF, a WHM can do all 3 roles.

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I've only played for just over a month, and seen tanks want to be dps, dps want to be tanks, and in raids healers who only want to dps, it's the luck of the draw with DF. I don't mind helping as I can with dps as a healer, but, it depends on the group. If a tank pulls 15-20 mobs in a 4 player instance and I have to do Benediction as the pull starts plus Divine Seal+Cure2+Regen+Cure2+Medica2+Cure2+Cure2+Cure2 etc to keep her up, or if a dps pulls lots of extra adds onto himself, it will be fully healer mode 90%+ of the run. If it goes the other way, reasonable pulls, tanks and dps avoiding AoE, might be in dps mode up to 40-50+% of the time depending on the mechanics. Not sure why people queue for something they don't want to do (except dps maybe to cut down on wait times).

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Originally Posted by Zorafin

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Since you cannot think of any answers here are a couple of possible reasons why NINs might ignore the WAR slashing debuff. It isn't something imo you should get annoyed about if you think of it from a different perspective.

Do you let the ninjas know that you as a warrior will keep the slashing debuff on for them? If you don't communicate your intentions well they might just do it as to not rely on you. Not saying you will forget the debuff but some people like to be in charge of their own stuff and they don't really know you so therefore don't know if you might forget to use it on something. If they've never played WAR or don't know anything about it they might not even know you can do that so that's another reason to communicate your intentions.

Some ninjas just do it because they might not get WAR tanks very often either. So they are used to the muscle memory of keeping dancing edge on. So even if you do communicate they might just not bother. In dungeons I mean it doesn't really matter they are too easy; Dancing Edge combo isn't as strong but its very small difference in overall DPS if you are just refreshing it at the normal intervals for NIN and not spamming it.

Another thing about NIN that some people might not know is Dancing Edge combo is actually more powerful IF you can't do your positional combos. So if for some reason you end up where you cannot be behind the enemy dancing edge actually trumps aeolian edge. This only happens sometimes though.

As for the healer thing...yeah that one gets annoying when you are a tank. Some healers just spam aoe heals all the time when its not needed. Anyway only suggestion would be just be ready with provoke to try to save the healer if they aoe when a boss spawns. Sometimes they just gonna die though but its pretty much their own fault at that point.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Do you let the ninjas know that you as a warrior will keep the slashing debuff on for them? If you don't communicate your intentions well they might just do it as to not rely on you. Not saying you will forget the debuff but some people like to be in charge of their own stuff

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Well... I kinda can't not provide the slashing debuff. To maximize dps, I need to use maim every 24 seconds. And if I don't finish the combo after maim, I'm losing out on a ton of damage I could otherwise be doing. So my next choice is to either do less damage while lowering the enemy's damage done (and considering you're constantly 20 ilvls above the duty you're doing in this game, that's not very helpful), or to do more damage while also providing a slashing debuff. Unsurprisingly, every warrior I've ever partied with goes for the latter option. Therefore I can assume every ninja partying with a warrior is always seeing the warrior providing the slashing debuff, therefore I can assume that every ninja always has their slashing debuff overwritten when a warrior is in the party, and therefore I can assume that they kinda got the hint that they can relax with the slashing debuff when a warrior is in the party.

I can't presume you know the ins and outs of these two classes, though you do sound like you have a good idea of how they work. But I should still mention that applying the slashing debuff as a warrior requires much less thinking than it does as a ninja. If I use Maim, it's a no-brainer that I'm going to use Storm's Eye afterwards. Everyone should always assume this. But after I use Gust Slash as a ninja, I have three options to go with. I have five seconds to figure out which one is best, and I normally know long before that which I want to go with. That's a long time to look at the enemy I'm fighting, and see that my slashing debuff is gone after I just applied it, and to see that there's another slashing debuff on my target. That's a lot of buildup gone. I should quickly be discouraged from doing it again, and indeed I often am. After the third time it happens, I understand that if there's another ninja or warrior in the party, I should just look at them and follow their lead. Ninjas should be good at that, that's kind of what this class is designed around.

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Anyway only suggestion would be just be ready with provoke to try to save the healer if they aoe when a boss spawns.

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Thank you for reminding me, that leads to a new complaint. Why is provoke so bad in this game? It's pretty much worthless at the start of the fight (when my above complaint is most notable), and even in the middle of the fight I have to be super ready with berserk/fightflight to get it off another tank (especially if they don't know how to drop aggro). I've learned not to rely on it unless I know there's no way to get aggro back, especially since it has such a huge recast time where I might (will) need it again. It may be functionally the same as it is in WoW, but at least there my abilities had enough of a kick that I could get an enemy off a party member without much trouble.


If any of that sounded aggressive, it isn't toward you. I just need to get this off my chest. Week after week these things affect me, and there's no end in sight.
Like, you're a ninja. Being perceptive is what you do. You need to look at your poisons, your speed buff, your recast timers, lots of things. Looking at slashing debuffs can't be that much more work. It's second nature to me when I'm playing, why isn't it for you?

AHG!!

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Originally Posted by Zorafin

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Keep in mind also that you are talking about DF, not every tank in DF will try to maximize their damage. There are quite a bit that are happy just spamming their threat combo repeatedly without a care about how low their damage is. This plays into what Miste was trying to point out that some players would rather take the small potency loss that will ensure the slashing debuff is up at all times instead of relying on a DF tank to maintain it. When I do a dungeon as NIN and wind up with a WAR tank, I'll usually ignore the slashing debuff for a few rotations to see if the WAR is going to put it up, if they don't then I proceed to do it myself for the rest of the run. When I do a dungeon as a WAR and I end up with a NIN in the group, I let them know right off that I will be keeping the slashing debuff up so they don't need to worry about it.

There are actually a few other situations in which two job combinations require some sort of coordination between them. Take WHM and DRK for example. A dpsing WHM will want to Holy spam during trash pulls, most of the time, we like to do this at the start of a trash pull, but with a DRK present that isn't always the best option. I say this because a lot of DRK like to pop Blood Price once they get all the adds together and doing a Holy spam will essentially kill their mp regen. As such, I wait to see if BP is used and then will time my Holy spam to land the first stun as BP is falling off. Other DRK tend to use BP at random times and with them, I'll just stick to my normal spam at the start instead of waiting for it.

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Originally Posted by Zorafin

Well... I kinda can't not provide the slashing debuff

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Well yeah you play WAR properly but not all WARs play at full potential...I've seen quite a many who just spam butcher's combo you'd be surprised (like Cnidarian pointed out; I didn't refresh before I posted). So it's more of a relying on a stranger thing again. Some just don't bother especially when DF can be....being nice here...a bit of a let down sometimes lol.

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Originally Posted by Zorafin

But I should still mention that applying the slashing debuff as a warrior requires much less thinking than it does as a ninja

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I definitely understand that, but I mentioned this in my post that if your rotation becomes muscle memory then sometimes as a NIN you might forget there is a WAR in the party and just do it out of habit. So in the case of less thinking it actually becomes more thinking to actually pay attention that the WAR is keeping it on and you need to change what you usually do. Just my opinion though as to show a different perspective. Obviously you are likely better than some at adapting.

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Originally Posted by Zorafin

Looking at slashing debuffs can't be that much more work.

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There actually is a configuration option for this game to remove all debuffs on enemies but your own to minimize clutter. I know quite a few people who use it. So its possible they don't even see your debuff. This might also come back to some NIN might not even know WAR has the same slashing debuff especially since the WAR debuff has a different icon. Unless they get curious and hover their mouse over it they won't even know what it is.

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Originally Posted by Zorafin

If any of that sounded aggressive, it isn't toward you.

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Nah I didn't take it as aggressive :) and I'm just showing you a different perspective because you said it confused you why this happens. I played NIN quite a bit for awhile but I don't even really play it much anymore. I am a main healer.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Nah I didn't take it as aggressive :) and I'm just showing you a different perspective because you said it confused you why this happens. I played NIN quite a bit for awhile but I don't even really play it much anymore. I am a main healer.

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And I appreciate that. It gave me something to attack to get my frustration out of the way.

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

There are quite a bit that are happy just spamming their threat combo repeatedly without a care about how low their damage is.

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Now my frustration has reached its limit. Good players are playing bad so they can play better with bad players. Pardon me.
*mushroom clouds*

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Originally Posted by Zorafin

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I don't understand this. I have ninja lvl 60 and currently learning warrior (Only lvl 38 though).
I didn't know about this tbh. Mind someone explain why ninja slash debuff isn't good when with warrior? I always follow as any other ninja rotations. D:

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Originally Posted by Hrimfaxi

I don't understand this. I have ninja lvl 60 and currently learning warrior (Only lvl 38 though).
I didn't know about this tbh. Mind someone explain why ninja slash debuff isn't good when with warrior? I always follow as any other ninja rotations. D:

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The warrior rotation is Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block first for their threat combo. After this, they can safely do what they want for a while without worrying about threat.
After that, it's Heavy Swing > Maim to gain +20% damage, and therefore 20% more threat. Maim is the middle of their combo, so they have a choice of how to finish it. Either they finish with Storm's Path - which lowers the target's damage by 10% for 250 potency - or Storm's Eye - which lowers the target's slashing resistance by 10% (10% more damage for the warrior) for 270 potency.

When the warrior is alone, Storm's Eye is generally the obvious choice. Unless they really need to take less damage (rare), it's better for them to do 10% more damage.

This is where the ninja comes in. You'd think the best thing would be for the ninja to do the slashing debuff, and the warrior to do the damage debuff. But doing this, the warrior would do a 250 potency attack instead of a 270 potency attack, and the ninja would do a 260 potency attack instead of a 320 potency attack. So overall, to take less damage (which is rarely a concern), we're doing 80 less potency.

If I (the warrior) am not a team player, I'll just use Storm's Eye no matter what the ninja does. No damage down, but I do 20 more potency every third combo. So I win.
If you (the ninja) are not a team player, you'll ignore what the warrior is doing and keep using Dancing Edge every twenty seconds. Doing that loses 60 potency every... third combo? I'm more reactionary when I play ninja, so I'm not sure how often I do it.

So basically, it's in the Warrior's best interest to just spam his normal combo and ignore everyone. However, it's in the Ninja's best interest to pay attention to the party composition and the debuffs, and figure out what they should be doing.


In my experience as a ninja, it's not in your best interest to follow a set pattern anyway. It's in your interest to pay attention to everything that's going on, and react accordingly. If someone gains threat, Smoke Screen. If the tank needs threat, Shadewalker. If your poisons are dropping, reapply them. If your slashing debuff is dropping, reapply it. And if your slashing debuff is overwritten, allow whoever is doing it to do your work for you. Take advantage of the situation to do more damage.

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Originally Posted by Zorafin

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Ah i understand now. My fault for not reading the description of the ninja move as well. Thanks for the info :D

This is completely off topic but I almost thought I stumbled into the Tank subforum. Lol.
Interesting read though.

I remember the first time I learned about the Warrior'd debuff. It was the first boss of the Vault and me and the Warrior were playing Hot Potato with the debuff until the Bard said something. And we both had no idea the other class had that skill and just kept reapplying the debuff when it went away.

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

Keep in mind also that you are talking about DF, not every tank in DF will try to maximize their damage. There are quite a bit that are happy just spamming their threat combo repeatedly without a care about how low their damage is. This plays into what Miste was trying to point out that some players would rather take the small potency loss that will ensure the slashing debuff is up at all times instead of relying on a DF tank to maintain it. When I do a dungeon as NIN and wind up with a WAR tank, I'll usually ignore the slashing debuff for a few rotations to see if the WAR is going to put it up, if they don't then I proceed to do it myself for the rest of the run. When I do a dungeon as a WAR and I end up with a NIN in the group, I let them know right off that I will be keeping the slashing debuff up so they don't need to worry about it.

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^This, pretty much. As a Ninja main, I am very aware of when there's a Warrior in my team. At the start, I'm watching to see if they use Storms Eye and keep it up. I've seen Warrior's only use it once the entire run. I've seen them not even touch it. And it has just gotten to the point where it's just easier for me to assume I have to do it. Even when I'm with a Warrior in DF and I see them use it, it still takes about half the dungeon for me to trust them, unless they call me out on it and I know they're paying attention. I mean I know it's sad, but I can't exactly trust DF tanks. And I'm putting it all on the tanks either, I know DF Ninjas are awful too. Over half of them don't even know what Goad does and even fewer know how to use Trick Attack.

I decided to do aurum vale, then I noticed that we had a conjurer with level 1 glamour items, after he spoke french about 3 minutes, he left.

On the topic of Warriors, please don't wait too long after initiating the first boss fight of Antitower before using Berserk so that I(as a Bard) can cleanse both your pacification and concussion rather than having to choose between the two!

As for something more "ranty", I came across a couple of Dark Knights the past few days that seem to almost completely ignore the existence of Darkside, at least for large pulls and boss fights.... also one that used their 10 second, strong damage reduction skill on four enemies.... while still running to pick up a further two - in other words, they hardly had the chance to hit her before it wore off!