Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

I keep saying this: If Yoshi-P thinks that Warriors are so strong and great at tanking, he needs to give us some examples. Clearly no one has played as much as his dev team, so maybe they know some super secret strategy no one else does, or maybe he's just buying time until buffs or until encounters are tuned to Warrior's speciality. Warriors can totally do most current content, but it's typically at least slightly, and usually moderately harder on the healers.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Not...really.
It just does not compare to any true DPS class unless you do some...really weird stuff I think.

I believe you need dragoon gear, and then you need to be strength allocated and be a marauder.

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I can pull around 200 DPS as a WAR on single target encounters. That may not compare to a great rotation from most DPS, but seeing as how I'm doing that while tanking, I'd say that's pretty legit DPS.

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Originally Posted by Halfmind

I can pull around 200 DPS as a WAR on single target encounters. That may not compare to a great rotation from most DPS, but seeing as how I'm doing that while tanking, I'd say that's pretty legit DPS.

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That entirely depends upon the context Half.
The issue with the parser is that currently it does not provide accurate information, particularly for a spec such as Summoner.
At the moment I have not seen anything to suggest Warrior DPS, while tanking, to be anything comparable to a true DPS spec role.
Hence, why I mntioned the above and making an odd DPS spec.

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Originally Posted by Halfmind

WAR is really strong when it comes to the following:
-DPS
-Threat
-AOE DPS/Threat

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WAR does not deal significantly more DPS than a paladin. While tanking a WAR will deal roughly 15% more. When you consider that this 15% is on a number such as 120, you realize how completely inconsequential that is. In regards to "threat," Paladins generate more threat because paladins don't have a combo they need to use that doesn't generate any additional enmity.

"AOE DPS and threat" is hardly a positive. Paladins can hold aoe threat just fine and are much more survivable while doing it. In addition, the "extra aoe dps" provided by Warrior is heavily limited by TP and in practice might amount to a 500-1000 extra aoe damage per pull, in, for example, turn 4, where you are constantly having to ration for TP for each spawn. That's nothing. It's even less when you consider that Paladins have some decent aoe's of their own that they're throwing out, which narrows that gap quite a bit. And hell - Warriors use flash for initial pickups more so than overpower anyway, and the initial pick up is the hard part of aoe tanking.

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I can pull around 200 DPS as a WAR on single target encounters. That may not compare to a great rotation from most DPS, but seeing as how I'm doing that while tanking, I'd say that's pretty legit DPS.

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You're not doing 200dps with defiance on in tank gear unless you're talking a 20 second fight that lasts exactly the duration of berserk and unchained. I do anywhere from 180-220dps according to the shitty parser on demon wall and that's in DPS gear with defiance off and 420 str on an extremely short fight where crit luck actually plays a real part. And the theoretical "no shield oath" DPS of a paladin is undeniably higher than a Warrior anyway, so that's a moot point.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

I don't think its a part of patch 2.1. He stated we needed to do more research now and that WAR is really strong. They have a real parser and data flow in the dev environment which gives them all the data to review and he is stating we are missing something.

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I remember when they said everyone was doing AV wrong and that they would release a video showing how to properly do it.

TWO YEARS LATER, they released a video that didn't show anything worth watching.

I have little faith in SE when they claim that everyone is simply doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

It might be because they have access to all the best gear too. I did a mock up of all end game gear based on damage data I've been collecting.

To see what a decked out War could pull off. Results could be even higher depending on stat walls etc but here it is.

Because PLD's Shield Oath and Defensive Skills scale against damage regardless of gear, I think that's why Paladin seems so OP compared to Warrior.
What will Paladin see from the best gear? More HP, a bit more Defens, slightly better block and parry, maybe a little more enmity generation from the STR already on gear? Most importantly it will not see any extra benefit from its existing defensive buffs.
So let’s take a look at Warrior using AF2, Relic 2 and end game jewelry, because Warrior’s main defense is its offense, which it can only get from gear equal to the content being challenged (player skill aside)
I did a spec sheet on what my characters stats would be in full endgame gear (Hero, Alagan etc)

Bravura + 1

STR 451
VIT 395
ACC 429
CRIT 379
Parry 466
DET 263
Skill Speed 393

Using damage testing and cross referencing it to these stats here’s what I came up with.
Warrior HP ~ 6300
Average Inner Beast - 1950 HP Recovered @ 650 Damage (Maim, Storm’s Eye)

~ 180 SHPS using only Inner Beast and double Inner Beast @ 60 secoWnd intervals
~ 234 SHPS including other CD’s (Berserk, Inner Release, Second Wind)
~ Bloodbath would account for ~ 10 SHPS
~ Infuriate Buff would account for ~ 64 HPS (Average 2k heal @ 8% Average Wrath)

So ~ 308 Damage Mitigation per second fully geared.

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Check this guy's bar charts:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/100494-How-would-you-fix-Warrior?p=1392917&viewfull=1#post1392917

You know what's crazy? Because PLD's damage mitigation scales with incoming damage, that means that a PLD now, in ilvl 70 gear available today, mitigates ~350 damage per second in the same example. That's how broken WAR is, a WAR in full endgame ilvl 90 mitigates according to your calculations ~300, a PLD in currently available ilvl 70 mitigates ~350. Oh, and that's passive mitigation, we haven't started talking about PLD's cooldowns yet!

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

I keep saying this: If Yoshi-P thinks that Warriors are so strong and great at tanking, he needs to give us some examples. Clearly no one has played as much as his dev team, so maybe they know some super secret strategy no one else does, or maybe he's just buying time until buffs or until encounters are tuned to Warrior's speciality. Warriors can totally do most current content, but it's typically at least slightly, and usually moderately harder on the healers.

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I know the secret but have been loath to reveal it. Gather closer friends so I may impart this sacred knowledge on thee. Warriors must stack piety from stat point allocation and materia (where applicable). The goal is to be pious enough that the Gods will hear our frustration of being the "inferior" tank and bless us will good healers don't mind having to work harder.

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Originally Posted by Faction

WAR does not deal significantly more DPS than a paladin. While tanking a WAR will deal roughly 15% more. When you consider that this 15% is on a number such as 120, you realize how completely inconsequential that is. In regards to "threat," Paladins generate more threat because paladins don't have a combo they need to use that doesn't generate any additional enmity.

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You're correct on DPS, but a WAR using the BB>BB>SE combo chain will generate more enmity than a PLD spamming the Halone combo. It does less damage than the BB>SE combo because you're losing uptime on the SE debuff (it's only up for the BBs) but generates substantially more enmity thanks to using BB more often.

The "WAR is good because it packs more DPS" arguments are really getting old. It's gotten to the point where the only people that bring it up are willfully ignorant of what the classes are actually capable of or those that simply parroting what they heard from other people or are seeking any justification for the poor relative performance of WARs (e.g. "WAR is less survivable so it *must* have better damage to make up for it").

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Originally Posted by Illya

Check this guy's bar charts:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1392917

You know what's crazy? Because PLD's damage mitigation scales with incoming damage, that means that a PLD now, in ilvl 70 gear available today, mitigates ~350 damage per second in the same example. That's how broken WAR is, a WAR in full endgame ilvl 90 mitigates according to your calculations ~300, a PLD in currently available ilvl 70 mitigates ~350. Oh, and that's passive mitigation, we haven't started talking about PLD's cooldowns yet!

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Technically a PLD in almost any gear mitigates ~350 under those conditions. It's not really tied to their gear at all, they just need enough HP to not get 2-shot. The raw defense increase from i60 to i90 is actually pretty small.

For 2x BB + 1x SE combo, that's 2150+2150+610 enmity (if the enmity numbers are correct). Best case scenario both BB combos have SE debuff and Maim for them, which puts them at 33% higher enmity, this puts them at 2863 Enmity. The Maim combo only gets the benefit of the 20% maim buff, so that puts it at 732. A total enmity in 3 combos of 6458.

For pld, they get 2130 Enmityx3. In the same period of time, the PLD gets 6150 potency-Enmity. So a WAR will be making about 5% more enmity than a WAR.

But also worth noting that the WAR has ramp-up time. You actually dip in enmity while putting up your first maim/Storm's Eye.

And it's also worth noting that just spamming Butcher's Block is almost as effective, at 6450 potency-enmity. The entire difference is due to 1 thing: the fact that Butcher's Block is 280 potency instead of 260 that halone is.

And it's also worth noting that Fight or Flight generally puts paladins ahead as well, a PLD will generally generate far more enmity in the initial stages of the fight because they can open with Fight or Flight, while a WAR has to wait for SE debuff to efficiently use Berserk and/or Unchained, and even then you end up with some downtime after it wears off.

In fairness, WAR does have up to a 10% crit advantage which counts for something.

Anyhow, they're so close it's hard to chalk it up as an advantage to one or the other. a 5% rotational advantage could also be offset by Circle of Scorn and Spirit's within, but I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Check this guy's bar charts:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1392917

You know what's crazy? Because PLD's damage mitigation scales with incoming damage, that means that a PLD now, in ilvl 70 gear available today, mitigates ~350 damage per second in the same example. That's how broken WAR is, a WAR in full endgame ilvl 90 mitigates according to your calculations ~300, a PLD in currently available ilvl 70 mitigates ~350. Oh, and that's passive mitigation, we haven't started talking about PLD's cooldowns yet!

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I just want to point out how off those numbers are, they are off by about a factor of 100%. There is no way you're mitigating 300 damage with those skills, even with that insane amount of gear.