#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by flowerkatie

This is the response of somebody who's original post wasn't trolling, by the way.

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The original post was not trolling. That one was. If you cannot tell the difference between the two, well, there's no point continuing what little discussion was being had.

You are not the first person I have asked the question to. You will not be the last. You also were not the first person to dodge answering it, or ignore it entirely. In fact, I was hoping you'd be the first to do so. Because not a single person I've asked has answered. You can call it 'pointless' or 'waste of time' or whatever, but if you're going to say 'This is how to fix healers' on a public forum, you'd better be able to back that assertion up. And you haven't. Doing the maths to work out how much healing a Job puts out over a given timeframe is incredibly simple. It took me 45 seconds, of which 30 was waiting for Indom to come back off cooldown. If you really don't have time to spend like, a minute doing the maths, then I'd recommend not being on the forums at all

Edit: If I'm 'trolling', you should probably block me, rather than responding to me

Say we do up the healing required, begs the question if we up the damage to a point that even offsets self sustain from other classes that means a group would be at the mercy of the healers no? Is that really wise when people are already complaining about how difficult DT normal mode content is?

I just don't see how they can do enough to up the amount of healing that would feel impactful on a healer in normal mode content.

Edit: I agree a certain amount of stress should come into play with normal mode content to push people to get better, but that push has to come in baby steps, problem is do we really trust SE to do that?

Is the strike still going? I haven't noticed as of late tbh if it is.

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Originally Posted by flowerkatie

many of these suggestions are terrible and experience in the role is not synonymous with valid suggestions and now you're saying his post has no meaningful contribution.

Pointing out nonsense is a valid contribution.

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Terrible is subjective. It’s is not objective fact.

Pointing out nonsense is your personal opinion. It may make sense to a lot of people.








Wow, it really does lead to nowhere

I see we are having this discussion again. I remember a certain poster who was similarly belligerent on this topic.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Terrible is subjective. It’s is not objective fact.

Pointing out nonsense is your personal opinion. It may make sense to a lot of people.

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Correct and correct, both actually being the front points of my original response on the topic, I never stated differently.

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Originally Posted by flowerkatie

And (once again) we're wondering why I've come to disagree with so many of these suggestions. You actually believe that 'more healing' is a simple case of making raid-wide attacks do more damage when there are a wide plethora of other potential changes that can also support in achieving this goal such as providing less oGCD's in the toolkit of a healer or making them weaker with options to 'buff' or 'proc' based on GCD options which would begin forcing more healing-based actions rather than simply pressing your damage button.

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It's an odd (and definitely cursed units) question, but no part of it assumes that only a single particular factor should be used, only a sufficient product. It even says "how many raidwides" right in what you quoted. Nor does the party size matter, since AoEs are already more efficient at 3+ players.

Using thousands of damage would require a target item level, so that's a bit odd, but if someone requests cursed units you can't be bothered with, just give them an answer in something more reasonable and they can convert it later if they like.


Reasonable Units:
~2100 potency of healing, assuming oGCDs were fully leveraged (and could not overheal even when considering would be natural healing wasted as overhealing) and the cohealer, if any, chads. A bit hard to visualize, perhaps, but it's what's actually useful.¹


Cursed Units:
~88000 additional raw raid damage² at ilvl700, assuming oGCDs were fully leveraged (and could not overheal even when considering would be natural healing wasted as overhealing), and the cohealer, if any, chads.¹

To apply that bonus damage, we'd find either a spaced-out source of unavoidable damage intake that hits at least some 4 times per average minute or locate a space in which to add something similar, and divide it more or less proportionately.

¹ Yes, this also assumes that all sources of mitigation were already valuably placed.

² At ilvl 700 (4220 Mind), every 100 "healer potency" (or 130 actual/relative potency) is worth about 4220 HP. Succor does 520 "healer potency" (~676 rP). 4220*5.2*4 -> ~88000.

But, as you and Roe each mentioned, the tricker part is that application of the bonus damage and determining what kinds of increases should be permissible, as not all increases to healing requirements actually increase healer cognitive load and/or likelihood of failure (those together decreasing accessibility), giving decent room to slightly reduce spam via increased healing GCDs alone. (That said, it's usually the things that do in fact add to cognitive load and often generate more risk of deaths from incremental failures that make healing more exciting.)

On a related note, I would be fine with instead nerfing oGCDs etc., or at least, in principle. The problem there is any former actual tight moments could then become impassible, whereas increasing the outgoing raw damage directly produces the same results without reducing sense of responsiveness or necessitating rechecks from retroactive changes to past content. It's therefore a much easier (I'd argue better, even) place from which to experiment with increased healing requirements since it brings with it the fewest other (likely confounding) factors.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Much of the discussion has been centered around being a healer doing normal content so that shouldn't invalidate anyone's opinion. After all, any changes to a healing job will affect every player that uses that job. Any change to general encounter design including normal will any affect players doing that content.

Does that more or less screw over the healers who are part of the smaller percentage with greater skill when they do normal content? Yeah, but they're not doing content intended for their skill level. That's why the developers say do harder content if you're not feeling satisfied healing in the content you currently do.

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You point out that we should be mindful of the regular players for any changes, that's fair. But where was that same mindfulness for us when SE completely reforged the entire healer role upon the anvil of accessibility in ShB? People who do higher-skill content has lost the entire healer role, there is not a single healer that caters to us, not a single one of them has a decently high skill ceiling, why was that same consideration not extended towards us? Why did we have to lose an entire role in the name of accessibility?

Also, like it or not, even people who mostly do savage/ultimate need to cap tomes, that means doing regular content like expert roulette and hunts. You might have a point about sticking with content that satisfies your skill level if savage gives 225 tomes per kill of each floor, then we could cap off doing the weekly tier clear even after tome cap is increased to 900, but they didn't do this, savage barely gives tomes so higher-skilled players are still forced to do regular content to cap tomes, so you can't really tell them to just go stick to their content and not do regular content.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Say we do up the healing required, begs the question if we up the damage to a point that even offsets self sustain from other classes that means a group would be at the mercy of the healers no?

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I have made a post about this before but I think the crux of the issue is that there is no clear image of what healers are supposed to be.

If they're supposed to be the person keeping the party alive, then we absolutely need higher healing requirements but we also need to be fine with having to trust the healers to do their job. We rely on tanks to keep aggro and, to a lesser extent, to position the boss. A bad tank can murder the group by cleaving people with AoE attacks - I see tanks bouncing aggro on Calofisteri and cleaving the group with Haircut regularly. I have been killed by stuff like Heavenly Heel, too. But I don't see any argument saying we need to take that responsibility away from tanks or simplify them because some poeple mess up. If anything, all I'm seeing is displeasure over tanks losing the responsibility to position the boss because of the tendency of every boss to constantly teleport. We also trust DPS to press their buttons in harder content because otherwise the boss will enrage and wipe the group. That's something literally nobody else can do anything about it. Early in the patch, people not pulling their weight DPS-wise is a massive problem. Once again, nobody is asking for DPS to be changed or for this responsibility to be taken away. I personally think it's just because a bad healer is more obvious. It's just that acting like healer is the only one who can ruin a run, which a lot of people do, is silly because it's patently not true.

Option two is that we want healers to be less "keeps the team alive" and more of a support. In that case, healers need something instead/in addition to their bloated healing kit because they don't heal much. The easiest way out is probably a simple DPS rotation and more buff/debuff abilities. I think AST cards were a really good solution until they were turned into just more healing in DT. There are hints of a system like this on every healer, they would just need expanding.

I get it. Having a bad healer is painful. Now that I've switched to DPS, I see just how many clueless people are playing the role. But that's because the game never really forces you to get better at your job and doesn't offer any substantial guidance on how to improve. You really shouldn't have to go digging through wikis and Discord servers to learn how to play the game properly. The game itself should tell you that.

Is this strike some kind of joke that I'm too noob to understand?
People complaining that other roles have self healing abilities that make healer useless and obsolete?
Then why in the content I'm playing I have to jiggle every single ability in my healers kit and still see other players die while all of my skills are on cd?
It would be more challenging and interesting to have party 100% rely on healers even in normal content, yes, but people already complain about normal content difficulty. Do we really need to spike the difficulty if healer is bad?