Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I haven't heard anything about them removing Cure III. Why is everyone so sure they have?

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Because it was missing in tooltip screenies.

Personally I think that it's replacing Divine Seal in the Job quest rewards, but we'll soon find out.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Because it was missing in tooltip screenies.

Personally I think that it's replacing Divine Seal in the Job quest rewards, but we'll soon find out.

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Ah.

That's what I thought was happening. That it was just replacing DS. I really hope so. =/ It would suck if WHM lost ANOTHER spell.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That really just depends on what the number is. Assuming that the added dps from either is 300-600 effectively, all the WHM would need to do is be capable of dealing that increased amount on their own. Or more. So a WHM that can deal that much more in comparison to their cohealer would be good. Say, AST with the second highest dps does 2k on average, while a WHM does 3000 on average. That's a 1k added dps bonus over the AST's 600(assumed) average added contribution through cards, and WHM could substitute for an AST when dependable damage dealing is needed rather than an unreliable dps buff that may never appear.

I mean. It's just common sense... that seems to be the niche they're trying to push WHM into, like SAM.

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Then please, do me a favor and calculate with the numbers we know, and then tell me if WHM truely has more than 600 DPS over the other two healers. Because I'm rather sure that would be more than we got. Besides, it would take a LOT of uptime to achieve that, which again would mean low healing requirements, which again would mean faceroll trololo difficulty in raids. It would also make lillies even more redundant than they already are. And that's not something I want to see. Them essentially pushing WHM into a off-heal DPSer niche also runs contra to their recently reinfirmed statement that healers are not supposed to DPS, so... why push a healer into exactly that niche? Sense?

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I haven\'t heard anything about them removing Cure III. Why is everyone so sure they have?

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The overcure trait ( for cure III) has been removed and apparently the skill was missing during some of the expos.

And yes, skills and traits that have been removed are still listed on the datamined lists (stoneskin, shroud, divine seal, stone with heavy, etc. are listed as well)

I had a look at some of the datamining posts on Reddit to make sure. It's still there, don't worry.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That really just depends on what the number is. Assuming that the added dps from either is 300-600 effectively, all the WHM would need to do is be capable of dealing that increased amount on their own. Or more. So a WHM that can deal that much more in comparison to their cohealer would be good. Say, AST with the second highest dps does 2k on average, while a WHM does 3000 on average. That's a 1k added dps bonus over the AST's 600(assumed) average added contribution through cards, and WHM could substitute for an AST when dependable damage dealing is needed rather than an unreliable dps buff that may never appear.

I mean. It's just common sense... that seems to be the niche they're trying to push WHM into, like SAM.

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As it stands now you lose about 2k raid dps just from the opener by not having AoE balance. And that's just one, never mind the multiple you'll probably get throughout a fight. WHM has no chance in making up the difference.

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Originally Posted by Metsonm

I had a look at some of the datamining posts on Reddit to make sure. It's still there, don't worry.

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While I'm not saying they removed Cure III, it being in the datamining doesn't mean we still have it. Everything is still there, removed or not.

Well, I'm not seeing Stoneskin on this list so I'm gong to say I'm pretty confident they have it.

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Originally Posted by Metsonm

Well, I'm not seeing Stoneskin on this list so I'm gong to say I'm pretty confident they have it.

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If you look at the raw ability list it is still there. The same with Scourge, Shrouds of Saints and a lot of other removed skills.

They won't simply remove things like this from the data to avoid a major headache with bugs and errors.

But they're all under the Adventurer class, set to unlock at level 0, so they're easily removed from comparisons.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

As it stands now you lose about 2k raid dps just from the opener by not having AoE balance. And that's just one, never mind the multiple you'll probably get throughout a fight. WHM has no chance in making up the difference.

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People take it for granted that you'll have an expanded balance after the opener. With rng buffs, anything can happen. One important catch to balance that gets overlooked is it's rng dependency. Sometimes you can't draw one at all throughout the course of a fight. Sometimes you get it in spades. You have a 1 in 6 chance of getting one with every draw or redraw, assuming that each card has an equal probability. That's only a 16% chance per draw/redraw of getting a balance. I've run entire 4-man roulettes without drawing balance once. This sort of extreme doesn't happen very often, but it still happens more often than what people give credit for.

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Originally Posted by Levy9

This sort of extreme doesn't happen very often, but it still happens more often than what people give credit for.

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Which is why I suggested that WHM's intended niche is to have a high personal dps, due to lacking anything decidedly RNG in their damage dealing as an off healer. I remember earlier in this thread someone also calculated that they had next to no manaloss while dpsing and could go on for six minutes of nonstop combat without any reliance on outside sources, though it's several dozen pages back now. Of course, SE won't endorse forcing healers to dps, but they will clearly let people play their way to an extent.

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Originally Posted by Levy9

People take it for granted that you'll have an expanded balance after the opener. With rng buffs, anything can happen. One important catch to balance that gets overlooked is it's rng dependency. Sometimes you can't draw one at all throughout the course of a fight. Sometimes you get it in spades. You have a 1 in 6 chance of getting one with every draw or redraw, assuming that each card has an equal probability. That's only a 16% chance per draw/redraw of getting a balance. I've run entire 4-man roulettes without drawing balance once. This sort of extreme doesn't happen very often, but it still happens more often than what people give credit for.

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1. The first Balance is almost guaranteed because you can set it up pre-pull, meaning there is exactly 0 RNG of having Balance during the opener. As the opener is the DPS heaviest part of the fight, this counts a lot.
2. As you say yourself, it's highly unlikely that you don't pull Balance again during that fight, letting WHM fall even further behind again.
3. Balance also benefits the AST themselves, meaning that they can get close, if not equal, to what a WHM can dish out, especially if also factoring in the Lord (I think it was that one that dealt damage and not the Lady).

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

1. The first Balance is almost guaranteed because you can set it up pre-pull, meaning there is exactly 0 RNG of having Balance during the opener.
2. As you say yourself, it's highly unlikely that you don't pull Balance again during that fight, letting WHM fall even further behind again.

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One expanded/balance is guaranteed if your party is willing to wait.
Having a 2nd expanded/balance in a 6 min or less fight is very unlikely.
When only 3 of your 6 cards are desired, and 2 of those 3 are to expand one, then why aren't AST bitching about all this unless bloat they have? Spear and spire are worthless. Bole is great, but it doesn't increase DPS. Arrow is a shotty balance. Cool I can't wait to use my one viable card combo!

Mean while at the start of the fight Chainstratagem will be up, and when its CD is up, it will be used again. mean while the AST has tossed 4 cards to the floor and has been sitting on just his expand or just his balance.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

mean while the AST has tossed 4 cards to the floor and has been sitting on just his expand or just his balance.

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Well, since CS seems like it'll be multiplicative rather than additive, it seems like it'll be fairly meh an ability. On the other other hand, it's still more dependable than Balance. Which means that a raid that prefers dependability over a spotty unreliable dps buff will get more time to practice in new instances, more time to devise strategies, and can proceed faster than one who's AST has failed to draw AoE RR for the 12th minute in a row.

SE just uploaded the job guides with all the SB stuff. Here's WHM. It also shows how the skills were changed.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/whitemage/

(Why is Repose still there tho)

We still have Cure III. At least that's something I guess?

I'm just going to try it out and see how I feel about the changes.

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that AST are not supposed to be able to pre pull cards anymore. So that's out of the question.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that AST are not supposed to be able to pre pull cards anymore. So that's out of the question.

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I don't see that mentioned for AST's page.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that AST are not supposed to be able to pre pull cards anymore. So that's out of the question.

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/astrologian/

Absolutely nothing mentioning that Draw can only be used during combat, so I dunno where you're getting this idea from.

Guess them pre drawing a card wasn't a big deal then? I'll have to wait and see. It wasn't those exact words, it was just mentioned awhile back.

Cure 3 is still around, I can breathe easy

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

Guess them pre drawing a card wasn't a big deal then? I'll have to wait and see. It wasn't those exact words, it was just mentioned awhile back.

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If there were any specific conditions on its usage, it'd more than likely say so, just like pretty much everything else that can only be used during specific circumstances.

Job guides are up. Diurnal still gets a 10% potency buff. So... AST heals > WHM heals. Thanks Square.

Yoshi: "Calm down, things can change"

Sees new job website: Nothing changed.

My two cents:

First off, I’d like the following changes done to WHM:

Divine Benison: Only expends ONE Lily, not ALL.

Medica, Medica II, and Cure III: Have a 20% chance upon the initial heal to grant a Confession Stack.

The first makes Benison more usable, the second makes Confession stacks actually a thing.

I see three possible solutions for WHM:

Option 1: Give WHM some sort of utility for the party!

Example #1) No weakness revive.

Why? Because this would make WHM more wanted for progression at least and definitely useful in 24 man content given the new way weakness works, if enough DPS are dead, the DPS checks will not be made with that level of crippling weakness.

Example #2) Hastaga

Why? Because this has been in the WHM tool kit in previous games and is considered White Magic.

Example #3) AOE Presence of Mind

Why? Because this also would give WHM some utility to the party, especially one with more caster DPS, but it could be expanded to increase skill-speed, etc as well.

Option 2: Make WHM able to solo heal 8 man content!

Why? Because if we’re really going to go down the rabbit hole of “Pure Healer,” then run long and hard with it!

> Increase the potency on all of WHM’s heals.
> Reduce the cds on oGCDs like Tetra to allow handling of double tank busters, etc.
> Make Divine Benison’s cd 15 seconds or less.
> Give them all the dang tools to make it so they can handle those heals so darn well that you don’t need an off healer, you can take a 5th DPS into Savage and Extreme content.

Option 3: Make WHM able to DPS so well compared to AST and SCH that they make up for the loss of utility!

> Increase the potency on WHM’s DPS skills.
> Make Stone IV and Aero III have chances to give Lilies.
> Give WHM an improved version of Cleric Stance that’s all its own.
> Make Confession stacks be obtainable from Assize.

Basically, make it so you’re not losing out on utility by bringing a WHM because you’ll have exceptional personal DPS added to the mix, making up for the lack of utility with raw damage output as an off healer.

Those are the three solutions I see to this. While WHM may be “viable” in all technicality, it doesn’t mean it’s a desired class in content outside of maybe 4 mans and PvP. It doesn’t look very fun to play currently though as it stands. *sigh*

Well I've lost faith. We're going into Stormblood with an improved Heavensward toolkit and can basically ignore lilies. It just sucks that our gimmick for this expansion is so lackluster.

I don't understand why Divine Benison needs to consume any lilies. It's literally just a one-person shield that has nothing to do with the CD reduction they intended lilies to have in the first place.

Dodging, Deflecting, "Things can change".
What is even the point of this anymore. I took a look at Tanks, and Healer section and literally everything looks even less balanced then two days ago.
Two years and nothing to show for it yay. Is it time for a new producer? Balance is even worse. What a waste of development time.

I have to admit, I still hate the Lily system just as much as before. Also the fact the person has to be wounded to obtain a Lily?... Having a co-healer shoot off a heal and heal them to full right before you get yours off is going to be an absolute nightmare.

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Originally Posted by IndoX

Well I've lost faith. We're going into Stormblood with an improved Heavensward toolkit and can basically ignore lilies. It just sucks that our gimmick for this expansion is so lackluster.

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I can't even begin to say how much this echoes how I feel. I've tried to take a positive outlook/interpretation every time SE says something and...

Sigh

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I don't understand why Divine Benison needs to consume any lilies. It's literally just a one-person shield that has nothing to do with the CD reduction they intended lilies to have in the first place.

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So you occasionally don't forget lilies exist, and to punish you if you try to top someone up with Tetragrammaton before shielding them.

Who over there thinks Ast is weak? It got nothing but buffs! Essential Dignity has a 40 second cooldown

There's either gonna be a reckoning or scholar and white mage are going to become insane. Either way, I'm pretty sure this is shoulder shrugging time for us. Class balance is rough everywhere, just put your head down and enjoy playing a videogame and yell on forums whenever you feel like it.

People still had hope? With SE's track record? I want to be so blissfully ignorant...
Also, people still think the developers know what they do? I can only laugh about everything at this point. Because that's all that's left to do.

Besides, we already are going insane over this for quite some time now.

Why is Stone II 200 Pot and Stone III 210.. 36 levels and become a Whm from ConJ for 10 pot. LOL.

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Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

Why is Stone II 200 Pot and Stone III 210.. 36 levels and become a Whm from ConJ for 10 pot. LOL.

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Aero 1: 230 Pot (50 + (30*6))

Aero 2: 350 Pot (50 + (50*6))

Lose 230 pot spell and only gain 100 pot on the new one. Old aero 2 was 12s vs 18 on the new one.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

Who over there thinks Ast is weak? It got nothing but buffs! Essential Dignity has a 40 second cooldown

There's either gonna be a reckoning or scholar and white mage are going to become insane. Either way, I'm pretty sure this is shoulder shrugging time for us. Class balance is rough everywhere, just put your head down and enjoy playing a videogame and yell on forums whenever you feel like it.

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Essential Dignity always had a 40-second cooldown. It was a trait AST always had.

We were told "calm down" and our worst fears were proven true, whooopiiiiieeeeeeee (minus cure 3 remomved). Gutted of important skills we have to get back via role skills, robbed of our dependable mitigation at earlier levels (Stoneskin) for a lackluster, (time-)expensive (first you have to cure 2) one at high level, and the entire lily / confessions mechanic is one big pile of failure.

This is not fixed by tweaking some numbers like "oh but you get a lily from casting cure 2"

I will ignore the lily mechanic 90%+, except occasionally triggering Divine Benison right after casting a cure 2 -- otherwise the lily from it will get lost anyway next time I use my assize/tetra and the small CDR isn't even worth paying attention to. Whatever. Honestly, a swiftcast Stoneskin 2 before pulls or a quick Stoneskin 1 when needed had more value.

Otherwise? All I get in SB is losses left and right and in return I got Thin Air. Excuse me while I yawn. The only time any WHM worth their salt EVER runs out of MP is if they have to cast raises left and right, and that is something that should not happen with any semi-competent group. And I am one of those WHM that spam nuke combos left and right WHILE keeping everyone alive.

"WHM has it's niche in being most MP efficient" is no niche at all, because this was never a huge issue for any semi-decent white mage. Only beginners struggled with this, and the only new tool for this -- thin air -- you get when MP shouldn't be an issue anymore.

So essentially the devs dropped the ball on WHM and screwed up big time. All the more given now AST IS A BETTER HEALER AND IF THEY PLAY THEIR CARDS RIGHT (pun intended) JUST AS GOOD AT DPSING WHILE HAVING AWESOME UTILITY!!!

If that's what the devs think "balance tanks and healers before we introduce new jobs" looks like they need to re-evaluate what the term "balancing" means.

Don't get me wrong, i don't want AST nerfed, I just want WHM to be on par with SCH and AST and have shiny tools as well instead of getting robbed of what little we had.

So dear devs, you dropped the ball into the toilet and then you flushed. And don't tell me again "oh please first play to 70 and you will see how great this is". I can read these changes, mentally insert them into actual gaming situations just fine, and have played WHM long enough to know that this is unfun, underpowered and just a load of failure, thanks.

Just as every single time before: The community heard about upcoming BAD changes, said "this is bad", the devs did not respond or said "oh you will see this will be good"... and.it.was.not.good.at.all. It.Was.Bad.

Fixing this mess requires more than just tweaking a few numbers as it was with initial AST. The lily mechanic has to be re-designed form the ground up. And I think Stoneskin needs to be re-inserted at earlier levels. That is the absolute BARE MINIMUM, even while leaving the glaring elephant in the room that is "we lost 4 essential things to the 5 role skills we can have".

I am half in a mind to not even level WHM, the only reason why I will probably do this is because I have 4 hunting retainers I would need to re-level otherwise.

But after that I am definitely contemplating to refuse queuing as a healer AT ALL in protest to what was done to WHM, until this mess is fixed, REALLY fixed. And if not fixed by 4.1 or so, unsubbing. Because I am sick and tired of SE doing such a shoddy job at balancing jobs and roles, and adding insult to injury then time and time again by doing appeasement tactics or simply not responding at all to feedback from the community. We have seen this with PLD, with WAR, with BRD, and previously already with WHM as well. And almost every time it took them YEARS to fix the failures they produced. Only their "special child" AST was the exception there.

"We listen to the community"? Definitely not. I call that a good sales line by now, nothing more. Otherwise only listening to steep drops in a job being played at all.

Well done, SE. My eagerness to play Stormblood is now gone, beyond "I am curious about Othard and the continuation of the MSQ". And that is not enough to keep me as a customer after I am done with that. I love Eorzea, I love the beauty of this game, but by now I feel treated like shit, and why should I continue to pay money for that?

:mad:

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Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

Dodging, Deflecting, "Things can change".
What is even the point of this anymore. I took a look at Tanks, and Healer section and literally everything looks even less balanced then two days ago.
Two years and nothing to show for it yay. Is it time for a new producer? Balance is even worse. What a waste of development time.

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Right? I'm going to just go over this...

Paladin and Astro are ridiculous now.

Sure PLD sat in the dumpster for 2 years, but these buffs and changes are literally insane. Especially with the nerfs/changes to the other tanks.

AST changes are all good, except the "removal" of its MP refresh(small nerf), and it received nothing but buffs when it was already the strongest healer.

I'm just dumbfounded.

Also, why is it perfectly okay for DRK to have a 20% shield usable on themselves every 15 seconds at level 70, but ours is on a 30 second cd and gated behind Lilies plus it's only 15% in comparison? =.=; Seriously?

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

AST changes are all good, except the "removal" of its MP refresh(small nerf), and it received nothing but buffs when it was already the strongest healer.

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Playtesters in the media event confirmed lucid dreaming can still be extended by ASTs. So, for them, it's still an lolmp button.