Black Mage Sanctuary - A Guide to DPS

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Originally Posted by Kaalia_Stormborn

I see someone posted 4.x rotation is higher pps and to shelf the 3.0 hybrid? Some data would be nice to accompany the claim. The only reason I'm ever using B4 in my rotation are the following: 1, it's the opener; 2, convert is coming off CD; 3, i get a slow mana tick. I don't really see the reason to use it otherwise unless there's cold hard facts in favor of a 4.x rotation.

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Your reasoning for using B4 is correct. I use it with LL rather than convert (since they line up every other LL) since LL makes your rotation go faster, so I want a few more spells in there to keep Foul timer nice and easy. But otherwise yea. It goes 5xF4 rotation > 6xF4B4 rotation > 4xF4 rotation.

I feel like it's more often than not that I never have to cast B4 except when Convert is about to come off cooldown so that I can execute a full opener in an extended bossfight, and that's using leylines and triplecast on cooldown. You just need a bit of luck with procs.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

http://imgur.com/a/l84Sr

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Can someone explain what one does if you dont get the instant manatick? dont get the free TC proc and dont have foul? because this happens alot more than people realize and should be part of the test.
We need 2 ticks in Umbral for full MP. Unless im missing something, even if the 5F4 rotation does more pps. Its offset by the fact that you will sometimes be in Umbral twiddling your thumbs.
Please let me know if im missing something here

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Originally Posted by prophecy4seen

Can someone explain what one does if you dont get the instant manatick? dont get the free TC proc and dont have foul? because this happens alot more than people realize and should be part of the test.
We need 2 ticks in Umbral for full MP. Unless im missing something, even if the 5F4 rotation does more pps. Its offset by the fact that you will sometimes be in Umbral twiddling your thumbs.
Please let me know if im missing something here

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Well you need to be trying your best to save a T3P or Foul for these situations. If you don't get a mana tick tho, you just wait until you do, cast 1 spell, then F3 again. Since you had to wait for 1 mana tick, you are able to use either T3, Foul (if it just came up) or B4, then go directly into your AF rotation. Ideally tho, you want to have at least one proc ready going into UI. If not, pray for fast mana tick. As long as you aren't getting no procs with slow mana ticks every rotation, its still worth it to do.

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Originally Posted by prophecy4seen

Can someone explain what one does if you dont get the instant manatick? dont get the free TC proc and dont have foul? because this happens alot more than people realize and should be part of the test.
We need 2 ticks in Umbral for full MP. Unless im missing something, even if the 5F4 rotation does more pps. Its offset by the fact that you will sometimes be in Umbral twiddling your thumbs.
Please let me know if im missing something here

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Depends on speed.
If it's absolutely instant, I'll T3>Foul>F3 or, if I TC'd like 5 seconds ago, I'll Foul>F3 (and get my mana back, as that's 4 seconds of cast time; I may delay F3 for like 0.2 seconds to be sure).
If that's too quick for you (as in, your speed is too high to allow for Foul>F3 and you TC'd like 2 gcds ago), then just B4.

I see. so over the course of a fight, you would likely use the 4.0 along with the 4.05 rotation depending luck with TC procs and good management of foul timing. Also have we been able to confirm that is stat wise its. SPS>DH>DET>CRIT? If so, how much crit should be classed as enough?

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Originally Posted by prophecy4seen

I see. so over the course of a fight, you would likely use the 4.0 along with the 4.05 rotation depending luck with TC procs and good management of foul timing. Also have we been able to confirm that is stat wise its. SPS>DH>DET>CRIT? If so, how much crit should be classed as enough?

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I'm certain that is the stat line up, unless something changes, and I'll be socketing DET wherever I can't have SPS or DH. You have to stack crit to astronomically high levels that i don't believe are achievable for it to make a noticeable difference.

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Originally Posted by Kaalia_Stormborn

I'm certain that is the stat line up, unless something changes, and I'll be socketing DET wherever I can't have SPS or DH. You have to stack crit to astronomically high levels that i don't believe are achievable for it to make a noticeable difference.

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If you're going for Ss and Dh as high as you can, that will leave you 1 materia slot where you can meld crit or det. At least that's what the BiS I decided to work towards shows. It's such a small amount that I don't think either one or the other will make much difference.

Speaking of SS tiers and stuff, has anyone checked how much you need for 0.01 reduction in F4 casts? Your GCD might need an extra 67 or whatever, but because of the longer base cast, F4 and B4 need slightly less SS to shave another 0.01 off. Could be that another 20 would do it, if you're lucky.

Random thought. Not too likely to happen, though, I think.

Heya, what belt are you guys going for?

Augmented Lost Allagan Belt of Casting -- (117 DH / 82 Crit)
Genji Obi of Casting -- (117 Det / 82 SpellSpeed)

Spell Speed is still out preferred stat but is that extra 77 SS worth all that Determination? I.E., is it worth the difference between 117 DH vs 117 Det plus the 82 crit? I think imma go with the Allagan for now.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

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(this is based on common consensus, but we don't know exact stat weights yet) DH and Crit are kinda like, pick one. That is now your second best stat, and the other is now your worst. As long as you can get high numbers of either, doesn't really matter what you pick. Det is 3rd, regardless of which you pick. So do you want 117 of your 3rd best stat and 82 of your best stat, or 117 of your second stat, and 82 of your worst stat. Seeing that we are melding SS to both, that doesnt really matter except the genji piece does lose a few points, but not much. Personally, I am aiming for the Genji piece, but without stat weights, it is a close call.

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Originally Posted by RyeMinx

Personally, I am aiming for the Genji piece, but without stat weights, it is a close call.

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I concur on the Genji piece; it's the clear cut choice based on current stat weight speculation.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Heya, what belt are you guys going for?

Augmented Lost Allagan Belt of Casting -- (117 DH / 82 Crit)
Genji Obi of Casting -- (117 Det / 82 SpellSpeed)

Spell Speed is still out preferred stat but is that extra 77 SS worth all that Determination? I.E., is it worth the difference between 117 DH vs 117 Det plus the 82 crit? I think imma go with the Allagan for now.

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Comes down to what you want to aim for. If you go for a max SS build you can reach the 1917 ss tier with food with the belt.
I haven't seen a definitly BIS set for BLM yet, mostly because it seems like it's unclear how good SS really is.
1717 SS seems to be a good compromize but I wasn't able to create a gearset with was able to achieve 1717 without being way above 1717.

If you interpret the BLM rotation naïvely as pure GCDs (which has never been too far from more accurate models in the past, think of it as a first-order approximation), DH: .147~.151, DET: .144~.148, CH: .124~.126, SS: .167.

- Modeling oGCDs would take the SS weight down a bit, since those take constant-ish time, but are infrequent.
- Latency and that bit of delay between casts that I don't know what that is is a whole different kettle of fish; I haven't been modeling that, and to my knowledge few people if any have, but maybe I should start.
- Tiering makes weighting more of a "convenient falsehood". They can give you some general directions, but you can't really set your sidegrades towards a "true" BiS based on them.
- The best set I found (well, only searching by hand, not by computer and yes, it's the 1917 SS) does 0.68% more damage under this theory--albeit with no consideration for the distribution of cast times--than the set with all the opposite picks. It's never really been that important to get "true" BiS, but sometimes it helps to see how much you stand (not) to lose.

how much SS is enough? I see some with around the 1300ish range with 99% percentile while I also see others nearing 2k

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Originally Posted by jba252

how much SS is enough? I see some with around the 1300ish range with 99% percentile while I also see others nearing 2k

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I think it's personal preference tbh but 1700 feels good to me.

Quick question folks.. Obviously we stacking SS>DH>DET nowdays.. But how much crit should you expect to have once its done? Im hearing crit is not worth it unless you can reach a certain amount.. which im fine with, but how much should one aim for as a minimum

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Originally Posted by prophecy4seen

Quick question folks.. Obviously we stacking SS>DH>DET nowdays.. But how much crit should you expect to have once its done? Im hearing crit is not worth it unless you can reach a certain amount.. which im fine with, but how much should one aim for as a minimum

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There's no such thing as "minimum" crit for a job that gets nothing from crits. You'll naturally get some from gear and that's fine.

So I'm working on Melds and want to know the consensus on going over the Materia cap.

Right now I want to Socket 2 SS VI in my Coat, but it will put me over the cap by 5 (75 total).

Is it worth it to overcap by just a little or should I ALWAYS go for a secondary (Direct Hit) or third (Deterence) stat to avoid overcapping, no matter the number?

i only know that in 3.5, eventhough ss was cleary better than crit, I had the best dps when the ration of ss and crit was close to 1:1.., and not 2:1/ss:crit

meaning, this time too, if the ss feels good, try to keep the other off- stats evened out a bit, dont let one stat fully drop out too over max another (like I just did in 4.05, went full ss and dhit, than det.., making my crtit drop to 460, but with ss and dhit ca. 2000 and det 1030.., might be better if atleast bring det and crit closer to each maybe 800-750)

It sounds like you used to get really lucky, Shiroe. I'm used to getting completely boned on my crit rate and seeing it at like 8% or less.

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Originally Posted by prophecy4seen

Quick question folks.. Obviously we stacking SS>DH>DET nowdays.. But how much crit should you expect to have once its done? Im hearing crit is not worth it unless you can reach a certain amount.. which im fine with, but how much should one aim for as a minimum

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I don't do this, actually. If you plot the curves (based on SunnyHirose's suggestion earlier), you see that for some ranges of DH, CH gets better scaling.
I don't want to get into details, but if you project a joint function of both, I believe there are ranges where for a total sum of (DH+CH > K), stacking CH yields better results than Det (and even DH itself, but well, you can't really undo that or lowering DH will shove you back into the threshold where CH is worse. Technically, with absolutely freedom picking secondaries, you could do this, but since we go in "chunks", it doesn't quite work).
I guess the idea here is that as the expected base dps value grows, so does the quadratic contribution of CH, and since DH and Det influence that, it's best to plot it all together as much as possible.

(The theory people won't release stat weights, but it's just a linearization anyway).
Didn't double check the code. If I ever get the time to, I'll release it or something, but don't count on it (busy with my actual job).

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Originally Posted by Pendas

So I'm working on Melds and want to know the consensus on going over the Materia cap.

Right now I want to Socket 2 SS VI in my Coat, but it will put me over the cap by 5 (75 total).

Is it worth it to overcap by just a little or should I ALWAYS go for a secondary (Direct Hit) or third (Deterence) stat to avoid overcapping, no matter the number?

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You're going to be working in jumps of 40. It's practically impossible to land on a near-perfect value.
I've resigned to living with 23 useless speed.
I could go to the lower tier and live with like 15, but... until we get a relic, then you can make it work perfect.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

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Do you consider speed tiers that let you "clip" buffs?
(Like starting to cast one more spell with Arrow or under Ley Lines)
Or do you just consider the rotation in the vacuum?
(What's your simulator written in, if I may?)

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Heya, what belt are you guys going for?

Augmented Lost Allagan Belt of Casting -- (117 DH / 82 Crit)
Genji Obi of Casting -- (117 Det / 82 SpellSpeed)

Spell Speed is still out preferred stat but is that extra 77 SS worth all that Determination? I.E., is it worth the difference between 117 DH vs 117 Det plus the 82 crit? I think imma go with the Allagan for now.

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Is no one considering the crafted gear being better ?

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Do you consider speed tiers that let you "clip" buffs?
(Like starting to cast one more spell with Arrow or under Ley Lines)
Or do you just consider the rotation in the vacuum?

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The purest vacuum possible. No tiering or hard breaks (ticks) or buffs of any sort considered. At this level, you don't even take a look at different spells since you can expect the stats to affect everything roughly equally on BLM. It's not true, of course, it's just not relevant enough if you just want one and a half-ish digits of accuracy.

It can be harmful not to start from such broad strokes. Otherwise you get results like that risible >0.4 "weight" from HW. Some people actually believed it, since it was such a monster stat at the end of ARR, but that's just the thing--people had formed their expectations from end-of-expansion SMN-torturing gear and damage formulas that look bizarre knowing what we know now.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

(What's your simulator written in, if I may?)

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It's just a spreadsheet, a few minutes' splat work.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

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I actually tend to just plug our formulas directly (discarding the floors on the formulas, so incurring an approximation error there) and then just maximizing under constraints;
Like, Max{ C1*f(CH) + C2*g(DH) + C3*h(Det) + C4*l(Int) + C5*F(CH, DH, Det, Int) + K }, but constraining the maximum amount of each stat and the sum of (DH+CH+Det).
I treat it all as the variables were continuous and the functions were smooth (which is obviously not true).
Then, I use that solution as an heuristic, and look for some K discrete points around the optimum I found for the continuous solution.

The exception is speed. I do that one "by hand" by bashing a dummy and noting what values allow me to snapshot some buffs as I start to cast a final spell and very roughly approximating the value of that speed breakpoint (also in a spreadsheet xD).
I sadly put blind faith on the Theoryjerks (Dervy et all) for the formulas, as I don't have time to check that myself :(

(Sorry, long post, but it's nice discussing it for a "sanity check" for the methodology)

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Originally Posted by Zyler

Is no one considering the crafted gear being better ?

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Crafted gear has lower main stats (int/vit/weapon damage) than the 340 creation gear or 340 omega gear. Int/WD are our main stats that scale our damage way more than spell speed, dh, or det. So there is no reason to consider the crafted gear for BiS, they are used for progression purposes and that's it.

det or crit? what is considered too low/too high

I jut hit 70 on BLM a few minutes a go what stats should I be going for?ive been told speed speed in about chat so I just slotted as much spell speed as I can and crit the rest

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Originally Posted by RyeMinx

Crafted gear has lower main stats (int/vit/weapon damage) than the 340 creation gear or 340 omega gear. Int/WD are our main stats that scale our damage way more than spell speed, dh, or det. So there is no reason to consider the crafted gear for BiS, they are used for progression purposes and that's it.

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depending on the secondary stats though sometimes pentamelded gear is better then the higher ilv gear so what you just said may not be true this has been the case before.
Has anyone seen even a rough guess at what the weight on our secondaries are ?
Although likely wrong if u value DH the same as CRT on Ariyala's gear page the crafted belt is better then both 340 belts. i cant imagine dh isnt weighted that differently to crit for blm , im just not sure how much the weighting have been lowered against our main stat

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Originally Posted by Zyler

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There is RARELY ever a time the extra pentamelded stats are better for DPS than the higher main stat. This is more common with tanks who could pentameld STR, we can't do that. Based on suggested current stat knowledge, CH is really bad, and doesn't start getting good until over 2000 CH... which is tough to do. Det is alright, but still not enough to compensate for losing so much INT. The stat weights on Ariyala's are from last tier, and are extremely wrong for this tier since they re-balanced secondary stats. Stat weights for SS are now equal to about .167 (best estimates), where it used to be .283.

Even if there was an ornate belt (which there isn't) that allowed for 5 materia 6s, the belt still probably wouldn't beat the Omega belt. It does seem to slightly beat out the creation belt, but not by much. Just stick with the 340 gear.

BLM feels almost... complete? Like at this point I wouldn't mind if we never got any new skills. I've played BLM since 2.xx and this is the best it has felt so far IMO

I think BLM is pretty much complete. I would like Umbral Hearts to have 6 charges instead of 3 and Transpose CD to be reduced by 2 seconds to give a little leeway in using it to keep foul ticking but that's about it in regards to Mechanics. Maaaybe Scathe gets a big buff or something.

blm UHearts still feels broken.., if I dont use a pot or there is no TA, not sure ill even start with b3, instead start with f3...

and losing astral / enochian when casting f1 under any ice astral, feels odd..

would still like to see a possible (3-) caster meta, parallel to the years long melee/ physical meta.., but as the casters are now, its not possible... (and as blm, you have to prove you are capable for good deeps, rdm doesnt need that, for some savage pfs or statics)

OK is it just me or is the 4.05 rotation ridiculously impractical? It seems nearly impossible to fit in a proc or Foul without dropping Enochian.

Not sure what you mean. Foul is used during umbral phase along with t3, there's more than enough time to fit it in. If its not ready yet just cast single t3 and switch back to astral, or if mana tick is a issuea add b4 on top of that.

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Originally Posted by Xilibrius

I jut hit 70 on BLM a few minutes a go what stats should I be going for?ive been told speed speed in about chat so I just slotted as much spell speed as I can and crit the rest

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That would be correct, Spell Speed is still number one, after this i still think it is a debate between Crit and Direct Hit

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Originally Posted by waifugenerator

BLM feels almost... complete? Like at this point I wouldn't mind if we never got any new skills. I've played BLM since 2.xx and this is the best it has felt so far IMO

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I think they might add more polyglot related spells or enochian tier spells in the future. I kinda think that the new UI is a starting point rather than an arrival

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Originally Posted by Realfoxy

OK is it just me or is the 4.05 rotation ridiculously impractical? It seems nearly impossible to fit in a proc or Foul without dropping Enochian.

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Huh. After 4.05 I can fit procs/Foul fine in AF, actually.
It's either your latency or your spell speed failing you.

anyone know FOR SURE if: determination > critical hit

or not..., no speculations or melee crit tests that show you need +2600 crit etc... but REAL blm stat weights at 4.0 / 4.06?