Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Niroken

Could you grab a non joking post that suggests that, I can't seem to find one but it looks like you found a few at least.

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Human psychology. People have an innate desire to perceive themselves as better than everyone else in one way or another, and the easiest way to do that in a game is to gravitate to an overpowered class/job/spec.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Thunda is a troll. Ignore her.

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Difference of opinion = Trolling. TIL something new~

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

No no. You misunderstand. It's your unwillingness to properly understand others' PoV, or your ability to post ridiculous hyperbolic things that make you a troll.

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I understand other people's PoV just fine, but I don't agree with it. Thus by your criteria, that means that my disagreeing with you makes me a troll.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

The only thing the upset WHM's will take at this point is a 20% damage increase AoE balance to all party members for 30 seconds on a minute cooldown.
Then maybe... just maybe, perhaps they will consider everything to be fair.

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I would be perfectly contented with not feeling like a f***ing burden to my group because all I can do is healing and hey, guess what, AST does even THAT better than me.
But hey, I'm used to being called a 'whiner for nothing' by now and told to just lay down so that people have an easier time to kick me harder.


Also, to the person saying we are only told to shut up because we are not giving facts etc.
Most who complained did in the beginning. I had several talks with people via Discord where I explained and crunshed numbers etc about why I'm so pissed about this. Comparing AST to the other healers, giving examples from experience how skills play out, when I needed, eg Stoneskin, in lower dungeons etc and why loosing that skill to a shield on a freaking CD hurts a lot. Most even understood. I gave arguments here, too. Guess what? I'm still getting called a terrible whiner who has to shut the f**k up. So why even bother, when nobody listens (SE) or just brush it off (players who don't play WHM, mostly) anyway?

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I find all of the "shut up and stop being so dramatic" posts pretty tiresome considering the fact that WHM is the most nerfed job in the game by a considerable margin. At this point even trivial nerfs are going to pull at least a "REALLY!?" from WHM loyalists. The drama tantrums aren't single-issue. There's a multi-expansion trend. Nerfs to Medica 2 (while the fairy still has the ability to throw out an AOE regen that's similar to the old version), Holy, Stoneskin, etc. Vanishingly few nerfs to the already widely-considered OP Scholar while those nerfs took place. Extra attention to the new job that progressed into buffing them to Scholar levels of OP. Extra salt rubbed in there because Astro's base kit is pretty much WHM's, but the original spent the previous expansion getting clubbed with the nerf bat and the newbie got buffed to a point they're arguably stronger than the original kit.

My point here isn't to go through a laundry list of rants about some petty issues people barely remember from years ago, it's to remind that WHMs have years of "why are they nerfing that? Ugh I guess we'll deal" job adjustment patches. Scholars have been allowed to remain OP for so long that I know more than one career WHM who thought that maybe we'd sit on that throne for a patch or two...but now see our kit with a starglobe getting an OP crown while we get nerfed again with a huge round of skill removal. Jealousy is petty, but it's there.

I enjoy the class lore of WHM. I'm not really interested in Astro. I'm getting bored of being nerfed. I will likely swap mains until I see the dev team make mid-expansion adjustments to WHM that don't begin with "potency reduced by..." I don't think this is unreasonable or over the top.

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Can they please finally give us a cross-server fl? Someone who thinks so alike as I do needs to be on it.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Difference of opinion = Trolling. TIL something new~

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No no. You misunderstand. It's your unwillingness to properly understand others' PoV, or your ability to post ridiculous hyperbolic things that make you a troll.

Hey guys, don't you see that the WHM skills are still subject to change??????? SB isn't even out yet the devs are looking into it!1!11!

cries in the corner of the room

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I understand other people's PoV just fine, but I don't agree with it. Thus by your criteria, that means that my disagreeing with you makes me a troll.

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Okay. /10cha

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I understand other people's PoV just fine, but I don't agree with it. Thus by your criteria, that means that my disagreeing with you makes me a troll.

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Hmm...

How you think pro-DPS healers play:

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I loved being a green deeps. It was entertaining watching people rage at wiping for not dodging avoidable stuff.

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So... no. no you don't.

All we really want is for the Lily/Confession mechanic to be re-examined so it encourages good gameplay instead of bad gameplay, and a defining class raid utility. These could be addressed simultaneously.

There's a comment in an interview about SAM having more dps then other jobs, however to make up the difference it lacks utility. I'm afraid WHM is the healer equivalent, It's just their chosen mentality going forward at the current time.

The problem is, no one wants extra healing. At the end of the day the other healers will be able to heal content regardless.

Well, AST was crummy to play on release in 3.0. And then look what happened to them. Just gotta wait a year to feel good again, by which point they'll have over-tuned us so we become the new Gods of Healing! Or we'll be like BRD and have to wait until 5.0 to get a kit change that better reflects what people like about the class.

I'll be leveling WHM first so I can give feedback on it since apparently our opinions are worthless unless we CALM DOWN and get it to 70. I'm not willing to grind that without story EXP to help out. Hopefully since Early Access will be mostly story and dungeon content I can avoid people trying to boot me in content. WHM still has their paper crown for "best in dungeon DPS" right?!

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Originally Posted by Slaine_Fray

There's a comment in an interview about SAM having more dps then other jobs but to make up the difference it lacks utility. I'm afraid WHM is the healer equivalent, It's just their chosen mentality going forward at the current time.

The problem is, no one wants extra healing. At the end of the day the other heals will be able to heal content without it.

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Thank you. You understand. If someone wants utility in their kit, there are classes that now carry plenty of it. However , not all classes have utility, and not all classes should. What's the point of having different classes if they all are the same?

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Originally Posted by Slaine_Fray

There's a comment in an interview about SAM having more dps then other jobs but to make up the difference it lacks utility. ... The problem is, no one wants extra healing.

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I think they're being even more literal than that. I think WHM will have drastically more dps to make up the difference, not more heals.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

I'll be leveling WHM first so I can give feedback on it since apparently our opinions are worthless unless we CALM DOWN and get it to 70. ... WHM still has their paper crown for "best in dungeon DPS" right?!

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Honestly, I expect the first month as WHM to be fantastic. Dungeon King, Progression Primals, Progression Raid. The question will be how it settles in late July, early August.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

Thank you. You understand. If someone wants utility in their kit, there are classes that now carry plenty of it. However , not all classes have utility, and not all classes should. What's the point of having different classes if they all are the same?

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But it also makes WHM near useless in raid content compared to other healers. SCH and AST can heal just fine, but bring utility. SAM will probably be fine if it does a good amount of DPS because utility isn't that important for a DPS to have (except for slash debuff and such).

Maybe the extra DPS from WHM will be useful in raids... I hope so, but we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

Well, AST was crummy to play on release in 3.0. And then look what happened to them. Just gotta wait a year to feel good again, by which point they'll have over-tuned us so we become the new Gods of Healing! Or we'll be like BRD and have to wait until 5.0 to get a kit change that better reflects what people like about the class.

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We'll be waiting until 5.0. To address the largest concerns it's going to take more the number tweeks especially considering the only thing that was officially addressed is the concerns about raid ability (To which he suggests trying it out in raid before saying anything, so basically if we do get number adjustments, it'll be closer to savage).

I don't think I've seen Yoshi-P comment on the loss of skills compared to other healing classes or any comments on the new UI and skills bring lackluster.

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Originally Posted by Kethic

I think they're being even more literal than that. I think WHM will have drastically more dps to make up the difference, not more heals.

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In terms of DPS...

That's the other problem... Players won't accept a WHM doing the damage of an equivalent utility from another healer, for some strange reason it has to be a utility buff for the raid.

They needed to make all healing skill grant Confession, Lillies to have PVP level of effect and make Benison have a Haste effect as extra if you use more Lillies. It seems so wasteful to use Benison at 3 Lillies and not get a different effect.

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Originally Posted by Slaine_Fray

In terms of DPS...

That's the other problem... Players won't accept a WHM doing the damage of an equivalent utility from another healer, for some strange reason it has to be a utility buff for the raid.

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If it works out the same way Warrior did, with regards to hybrid role output, people may come around. We'll see.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

Thank you. You understand. If someone wants utility in their kit, there are classes that now carry plenty of it. However , not all classes have utility, and not all classes should. What's the point of having different classes if they all are the same?

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The thing is, no, all classes should not be the same. They shouldn't give WHM some party dps boost or some other healers utility to bring them current. They need to give them their own identity, which has been a complaint since HW dropped. The issue is, Yoshi and Square seem hell bent on making that identity 'pure healer' and that is not healthy for the job or the game. You can't make content where so much healing is required that only a WHM can manage because that would obviously be ridiculous. Every healer has to be able to heal all content to a reasonable degree so bigger heal numbers is superfluous. I'd also argue that if they are indeed going for a 'pure healer' fantasy they have missed the mark. WHM isn't significantly better at healing than either of the other two and all our new healing abilities are gated behind bad mechanics and RNG.

I'm still an advocate for them making WHM the life saver of the healers. For example rescue should have been a WHM ability along with things like a self raise or some kind of preemptive auto raise on a party member you know is about to go down, effects added to asylum like a ticking dot, an aoe ensuna etc. There were a ton of things they could have done to make WHM's feel like the healers healer. Instead they gave us almost nothing new aside from mp management (which we arguably already had before they took it away) and cooldown reduction that is clunky and better off ignored. If you want to make WHM the healer that just heals, make us able to carry the weight of others on our backs and let the other healers worry about boosting damage, defense etc. I'd be fine with that so long as I didn't feel like I was coming into SB playing HW WHM all over again only with less moves and more RNG.

I think the reason people focus on utility for raid spots is because that is what has always been in demand. Personally, I'd be a bit miffed if my 'place' as WHM became the healer that does DPS. While I do add dps when I can, I don't play a healer to sit there and spam stone and occasionally become a holy factory. If they wanted to do that, again, they need to rework things. Connect our dps to our healing somehow so there is some actual involvement and give us interesting ways to dps. Heck, at least make my dps moves pretty to look at if nothing else. If I see one more brown and yellow stone spell with a slightly different shape, I'm going to throw things. Since I'm a WHM it'll probably be another freakin' stone.

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Originally Posted by Slaine_Fray

In terms of DPS...

That's the other problem... Players won't accept a WHM doing the damage of an equivalent utility from another healer, for some strange reason it has to be a utility buff for the raid.

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We'd love to do as much damage as an AST plus a balanced raid all on our own, but we accept that that is such a disparity that it would be crazy numbers.

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Originally Posted by Metsonm

We'd love to do as much damage as an AST plus a balanced raid all on our own, but we accept that that is such a disparity that it would be crazy numbers.

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Full circle utility issue :/

At this point I think we have given all the constructive feedback possible without any solid numbers. We are making the same suggestions, returning to the same talking points, and getting the same vague responses. We're only a couple hours away from seeing how it plays and how it feels. Once we get hands on with our class we can revisit our issues with better feedback.

I'm not happy with how things shaped up but I am optimistic about they might pan out.

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Originally Posted by BroodingFicus

The thing is, no, all classes should not be the same. They shouldn't give WHM some party dps boost or some other healers utility to bring them current. They need to give them their own identity, which has been a complaint since HW dropped. The issue is, Yoshi and Square seem hell bent on making that identity 'pure healer' and that is not healthy for the job or the game. .

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Given 3 healers, if one of them is a pure healer and the other 2 are not, then the pure healer will either be mandatory or irrelevant. This is bad game design.

Then figure that AST has very nearly the same healing throughput (effective heal per second) as a WHM, and even that flawed intention of identity for WHM is shown to be false. It is incredibly ironic that the one thing the 'pure healer' can legitimately do better than the other healers is higher/longer sustained DPS.

If WHM had an actual identity now, then much could be forgiven or looked over, at least by me. But there isn't one.

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Originally Posted by BroodingFicus

They need to give [WHM] their own identity, which has been a complaint since HW dropped. The issue is, Yoshi and Square seem hell bent on making that identity 'pure healer' and that is not healthy for the job or the game. You can't make content where so much healing is required that only a WHM can manage because that would obviously be ridiculous. Every healer has to be able to heal all content to a reasonable degree so bigger heal numbers is superfluous.

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I think this is where the community and dev team mentality diverge. The assumption always becomes 'Pure Healer' = 'Bigger Heals', and nobody is willing to think about other direct-path solutions.

And that's what they're delivering. Look at what they've presented with WHM so far. More oGCD heals with no MP cost. Lower cooldowns on oGCD heals. We've kept our existing passive heals. Potential healing bonuses on party members that are actively taking damage more often than their counterparts (confessions).

They're giving us the tools to spend fewer real and virtual resources on healing. WHM is efficient with it's MP. Efficient with it's GCDs. Efficient with the players attention. Efficient with it's commitment to whatever task it's performing at that exact moment. We get the job done, then move on to doing something else.

It's not as clever or powerful as some SCH and AST abilities, but I'm not entirely convinced it won't be satisfying or effective.

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Originally Posted by Kethic

I think this is where the community and dev team mentality diverge. The assumption always becomes 'Pure Healer' = 'Bigger Heals', and nobody is willing to think about other direct-path solutions.

And that's what they're delivering. Look at what they've presented with WHM so far. More oGCD heals with no MP cost. Lower cooldowns on oGCD heals. We've kept our existing passive heals. Potential healing bonuses on party members that are actively taking damage more often than their counterparts (confessions).

They're giving us the tools to spend fewer real and virtual resources on healing. WHM is efficient with it's MP. Efficient with it's GCDs. Efficient with the players attention. Efficient with it's commitment to whatever task it's performing at that exact moment. We get the job done, then move on to doing something else.

It's not as clever or powerful as some SCH and AST abilities, but I'm not entirely convinced it won't be satisfying or effective.

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Where is the point in this if the other two healers can get the job done just as well, if not better, but also bring something else on top of it? There is none. Efficiency won't get you anywhere when somebody else can do your job even while NOT being efficient. Also, I wouldn't really call what they showed super efficient, either... too much RNG, too much usage of skills required I most definitely DON'T want to spam. Efficiency looks different to me, sorry.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

Thank you. You don't understand.

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Fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Where is the point in this if the other two healers can get the job done just as well, if not better, but also bring something else on top of it? There is none.

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That is the question and the assumption, now, isn't it? Why would a healer want more flexibility or efficiency? Are we really sure the other two healers bring more, or just different? I've read almost every page of this thread, and even the crunchiest posts come back to 'I guess we will see'.

The point in this, as you put it, is that we can't analyze something correctly if we don't understand the problem they're trying to solve. I AM convinced that we have no idea of their performance metrics at the moment.

Because the other two healers have lower self DPS. It's as simple as that.

If we get the job done faster and/or by spending fewer resources, I would call that efficient, especially if our 'other activities' are also reasonably effective, which they are.

It'll be interesting. I'm hoping something will shake out of this that makes up for the poor design, and I'm seeing hints that we're thinking about this wrong.

I can see the Confess stacks being a useful heal for keeping tanks topped up for free, but it's the RNG that kills it. It'd also be far more useful if it would be applies with an AoE like Cure III/Medica/Medica II.

If they gave Cure III a 100% chance to apply Confession you might actually see some use out of it... maybe. For example: if a stack mechanic does a lot of damage to the group they could allow WHM to go Cure III > P.Indulgence.

But eeehh.. For some reason they are dead set on only using Cure/Cure II for every WHM mechanic. It's kind of weird.

The Cure and Cure II focus implies that the data they've collected says we use Cure and Cure II more than we think we do. C2 -> DB -> Regen -> dps rotation with mostly HoT and oGCD heal maintenance isn't a terrible cycle.

The Confession mechanic really baffles, to be sure. I just don't know what the hell to do with the Confessions yet. We need Assize or Medica (or as you said, C3) to also trigger Confessions or something.

I have been fairly outspoken on this thread, so I'm going to post my final contribution before riding into the sunset(sunrise?) of Stormblood.

The Good (yes, there is some good)

• Thin Air looks great.
• Assize is now on a 60 second cooldown. It also heals AND deals damage at maximum potency each use.
• Lucid Dreaming ticks slightly longer than Shroud of Saints, even if we have to get it back through the cross role system.
• Removal of prior Cleric Stance functionality makes DPS slightly safer and more readily accessible to all healers.
• Divine Benison has been changed to a 30 second recast oGCD skill. Weaving this skill into a healing "pattern" could prove interesting.
• The higher Lily proc rate is leaps ahead of the build shown during the media tour.
• Weakness / Brink of Death appears to no longer lower Vitality (HP), so shielding a freshly risen player may not be necessary.

TLDR: WHM received better MP sustain which coupled with a semi-spamable oGCD shield and the dramatic change to Cleric Stance, could lead to more DPS uptime on during a fight. WHM also retains the ability to deal meaningful AOE damage in dungeons or "add-style" fights like A2 or T4. WHM should still "feel" similarly to how the job played in HW, aside from a few notable absences below.

The Bad (quite a lot of bad as well)

• Lily system is still really clunky, even with the higher proc rate. We have no control over how lilies are spent, other than the order in which skills are used.
• The benefit of Lilies, aside from gating Divine Benison, is rather weak. Cooldown reduction is very difficult to take advantage of in scripted encounters, where certain abilities need to be saved for specific mechanics in a fight. I would personally ignore the Lily UI altogether, if not for Benison.
• Goodbye Fluid Aura damage. The oGCD damage ability made WHM DPS slightly more fun than say, AST.
• Longer sprint cooldown. No more waiting until the last second for a spell to finish casting and ALWAYS having sprint up to save your bacon.
• Loss of exclusivity to MIND party bonus. AST and SCH now both bring a MIND party bonus to the party. Conversely, WHM will lose out on the PIE party bonus usually brought by a cohealer.
• Loss of Virus. Even physical-only virus was useful in some encounters.
• Loss of Stoneskin. Previously available to cast "on demand", this spell was useful in shielding weakened players, tank busters, or even squeezing out a few extra seconds of DPS at the start of a fight by shielding the full party. Weakness may no longer be an issue, and Divine Benison does at least attempt to fill the void left by Stoneskin, even if gated behind a Lily. Rest in Paissa. :(

TLDR: The Lily system for WHM is rather boring and feels extremely forced, just to make sure every job in XIV had a new UI going into Stormblood. WHM also took a small step backward in raid utility with the loss of Stoneskin, and non-traited Virus.

The Ugly (Whyyyyyy?!)

• Incredible nerf to Divine seal. Not only was one WHM's best and most iconic cooldowns given to the cross-role system, its potency was lowered by 33% and recast time increased by 50%. Granted, the duration was extended from 15s to 20s, but overall a significant nerf to our healing ability worth mentioning.
• Plenary Indulgence is horribly unreliable. I understand that confession stacks are intended as a gimmick to compete with say, Synastry, but in 1 out of every 3 pulls a WHM can spam cure 5 times in a row and not proc a confession stack. Or worse, 1 out of every 5 pulls, cure will be spammed 7 times in a row without leading to a confession stack. Because reliability is sooooo low, other cooldowns will likely need to be held in reserve, rather than counting on plenary to do much of anything.
• Cure III removed?? Hopefully Cure III has not been removed from the game. We do know that the trait Overcure no longer exists but are anxiously awaiting confirmation. Yes, the skill is situational, but so is SCH Deploy and AST Collective Unconscious. WHM is already going to struggle with having an identity in 4.0. Removing our highest healing throughput spell definitely would be a mistake.

TLDR: Not only did WHM identity take a step backward, losing several exclusive iconic spells to the cross-role system or from the game altogether, but WHM did not receive anything to address the loudest complaint, the lack of raid utility. Plenary Indulgence is incredibly unreliable for a HEALING ability and a lackluster ability in general. Unfortunately, jobs do not exist in a vacuum, but rather in Eorzea with all others. Time will tell how WHM functions IN RELATION for the other two healers competing for party spots.

I feel like Confessions should just have a chance to proc from every heal, and actually DO something other than be 'okay you can use this skill now.' Maybe like Echo of Light like holy priests from WoW, or a skill speed buff, SOMETHING.

As for the focus on Cure/Cure II, I guess it makes sense... if you consider that maybe WHM changes and PvP adjustments were being worked on at the same time? :^) At least I can look forward to WHM in PvP, I am actually excited for that.

I'd be a lot happier with Confession if it would just proc off Regen casts and the Regen HoT. Then it would act more like a supplement to a WHMs HoT healing then RNGing tacking onto a heal.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I'd be a lot happier with Confession if it would just proc off Regen casts and the Regen HoT. Then it would act more like a supplement to a WHMs HoT healing then RNGing tacking onto a heal.

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This would be great too. Especially since I'm more likely to drop a Regen on a DPS instead of using Cure/Cure II if there's no group-wide AoE coming out soon.

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Originally Posted by xNewbx

Because the other two healers have lower self DPS. It's as simple as that.

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I know I'll sound like a broken record since I, and others, said this time and time and time again already, but...
It does not matter if WHM has slightly higher personal DPS over the other healers, ASTs Balance and SCHs crit buff + Faery utility STILL OUTWEIGHT ANYTHING WE CAN PULL OFF, on top of them ALSO BEING ABLE TO DISH OUT PERSONAL DPS ON TOP OF RAISING RAID DPS.

I really don't know why it is apparently such a weird thought that the little personal DPS WHM might have over the other two will NOT BE ENOUGH to make it competitive. Like, seriously, it's not friggin' rocket science.

I've realized that I can deal with these dumb changes if they just keep cure 3.

Sure it was "situational," but that situation was "everyone is close together and took big damage." Like in, I donno, nidhogg. Or last night when my buddies were pushing through baelsar's wall undergeared and I used it to heal us all up when we attacked the sword in the middle. Or a melee only party.

I wouldn't have even considered they would take it away until people started saying they did. There's no way. There's no way they take away cure 3, right? That'd be the stupidest move possible!

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Originally Posted by Verdan

I've realized that I can deal with these dumb changes if they just keep cure 3.

Sure it was "situational," but that situation was "everyone is close together and took big damage." Like in, I donno, nidhogg. Or last night when my buddies were pushing through baelsar's wall undergeared and I used it to heal us all up when we attacked the sword in the middle. Or a melee only party.

I wouldn't have even considered they would take it away until people started saying they did. There's no way. There's no way they take away cure 3, right? That'd be the stupidest move possible!

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They were going to remove Protect. Anything is possible at this point.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

I really don't know why it is apparently such a weird thought that the little personal DPS WHM might have over the other two will NOT BE ENOUGH to make it competitive. Like, seriously, it's not friggin' rocket science.

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Because, as many have pointed out, there is a real potential that it's more than 'a little personal DPS', possibly comparable to the rdps boosts brought by the other healers, when you take into account uptime and GCD usage. As you said, it's not rocket science.

That really just depends on what the number is. Assuming that the added dps from either is 300-600 effectively, all the WHM would need to do is be capable of dealing that increased amount on their own. Or more. So a WHM that can deal that much more in comparison to their cohealer would be good. Say, AST with the second highest dps does 2k on average, while a WHM does 3000 on average. That's a 1k added dps bonus over the AST's 600(assumed) average added contribution through cards, and WHM could substitute for an AST when dependable damage dealing is needed rather than an unreliable dps buff that may never appear.

I mean. It's just common sense... that seems to be the niche they're trying to push WHM into, like SAM.

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

They were going to remove Protect. Anything is possible at this point.

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Yeah but I can see protect, it's just a buff you throw up. Cure 3 is a useful spell that makes you feel powerful and important in the situations that it excels at. And there's a lot of those situations, stacking up and splitting damage has been all over the place since Turn 5!

I haven't heard anything about them removing Cure III. Why is everyone so sure they have?

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I haven't heard anything about them removing Cure III. Why is everyone so sure they have?

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I DON'T KNOW BUT I'M AFRAID