Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

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Originally Posted by Loggos

Edit: I read too fast and didn't see that you and SchwarzwälderTorte already discussed this very issue (reading is hard). :'D
I'll keep the post up though as an extra reminder for the devs, hoping they'll pick up on this particular point of feedback because I agree the missing line is a big problem.

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Looking at those comparisons something that I was never really able to put into words suddenly became clear to me.
(I can't edit any images right now. I hope I can explain it well enough.)

In addition to all the criticism people have pointed out, 6.x mouths have a much deeper shadow around the line where the upper and lower lip meet, leading to a darker "line" between the upper and the lower lip.

So even if the shape itself may be similar (e.g. both versions have the slight "downards dip" of the upper lip in the middle of the line where the upper and lower lip meet) the visual effect is completely different due to the weak, almost non-existent, shadow between the upper and the lower lip. It's almost inexistent.

This strong shadow adds a lot of character and quite literally defines the shape and the expression much better, resulting in a more striking and pronounced appearance.

This is a really important element for the unique look of the different mouths because even though the line between the lips itself may technically be similar if you look really hard you just don't properly perceive it if the defining shadows are lacking, robbing it of its characteristic impact.
The 7.0+ lips look so wishy-washy in comparison because the line between the upper and the lower lip is so weak and undefined that it just doesn't stand out as a feature and has no strong character.

This issue is not related to the lighting engine I think because this line's shadow is always weak and undefined.

This is why it's not enough to fix the outer shapes of the lower and upper lip (e.g., cupid bow), the expression (slight smile or frown) and the duckface/puffy cheeks (although all of them also need to be fixed!)
They also really need to add this definition between the lower and upper lip back in (e.g., by "hand-painting" the depth back in).

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This is exactly what I meant a few weeks ago. They removed nearly all of the baked-in shadows from our characters and expected the new lighting engine to do the work, but it just doesn't. It's not just lips either; go and stand in a sunny area and face your character directly toward the direction of the sunlight, and you will barely be able to make out your jawline against your character's neck. We need some form of the baked-in shadows back, because the kinds of shadows the devs were clearly hoping would be taken care of by the lighting cannot be rendered short of ray tracing being added to the game.

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Originally Posted by Heavenchild

-snip-

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i agree with you on the overall basis that more customization is always good generally speaking. More options for bodies, more options for faces and various other kinds of features is something that I really hope that we get to see in the future.
But I also kind of disagree that there's no elegant character options? At least from my perspective, most f models, but imo especially au ra and miqo girls are already incredibly skinny, almost to the point that it bothers me, but its treading a fine line where i think its just acceptable, i feel like anything smaller and i would feel kind of weird about it. I feel like male viera also perfectly fit the more elegant look, what with their sort of androgynous appearance, which is the whole point of vieras as a whole.

Overall, what we have now is perfectly fine as the standard look (and to me an overall basis for a slimmer character for most races), but adding more features is definitely a good idea long-term if they don't really plan to introduce more races. I've been begging for au ra horns to stop relying on face types since the day Heavensward came out, and it's still something I wish for them to change, for example.

Though I guess right now, they are occupied by the issues of transitioning to DT's new look and it seems like a lot of their time working on character stuff is just trying to fix things that 'broke' since DT's release. It'll be a long while before they introduce anything as exciting as more features in the character creator, i'm afraid.

is there anyone able to confirm if femra face 2 was changed in 7.2? i keep looking at my lizard and i feel like something is different or off about their face but i can't put my finger on it and it's really frustrating me

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Originally Posted by phnxrsngs

is there anyone able to confirm if femra face 2 was changed in 7.2? i keep looking at my lizard and i feel like something is different or off about their face but i can't put my finger on it and it's really frustrating me

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I logged into my own Face 2 FemRa just to check, and while I don't have a 1:1 comparison, it looks like everything is the same on her, though 7.2 also changed the lighting drastically, and if your FemRa has Limbals, if I recall from prior posts in this thread, Square messed with those too. So maybe that's what feels off?

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Originally Posted by Glitchima

i agree with you on the overall basis that more customization is always good generally speaking. More options for bodies, more options for faces and various other kinds of features is something that I really hope that we get to see in the future.
But I also kind of disagree that there's no elegant character options? At least from my perspective, most f models, but imo especially au ra and miqo girls are already incredibly skinny, almost to the point that it bothers me, but its treading a fine line where i think its just acceptable, i feel like anything smaller and i would feel kind of weird about it. I feel like male viera also perfectly fit the more elegant look, what with their sort of androgynous appearance, which is the whole point of vieras as a whole.

Overall, what we have now is perfectly fine as the standard look (and to me an overall basis for a slimmer character for most races), but adding more features is definitely a good idea long-term if they don't really plan to introduce more races. I've been begging for au ra horns to stop relying on face types since the day Heavensward came out, and it's still something I wish for them to change, for example.

Though I guess right now, they are occupied by the issues of transitioning to DT's new look and it seems like a lot of their time working on character stuff is just trying to fix things that 'broke' since DT's release. It'll be a long while before they introduce anything as exciting as more features in the character creator, i'm afraid.

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I agree that there is not a real need for slimer females. I just said that some NPC's have slimer models. And that I wonder why just NPC's get those.
What really bothers me is the lack for male characters. Male Viera are a little but slimer, yes. And more elegant. But they are way too big, and have too wide shoulders. (And the missing hats and hairstyles :') )
(They are okay as they are! But they are not the type I am talking about.)

There are plenty of options for female characters to fit almost every bodytype. But it's impossible to make some kind of 'really' handsome dude, like we see them in most anime series or other japanese/korean/chinese games.

And there is no race for males that fits: handsome and/or cute, small, slim and somehow elegant. It's female Aura for females. But males are all forced to be tall and/or with wider bodys and partly stiff animations (Hyur).

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Originally Posted by Perella

I logged into my own Face 2 FemRa just to check, and while I don't have a 1:1 comparison, it looks like everything is the same on her, though 7.2 also changed the lighting drastically, and if your FemRa has Limbals, if I recall from prior posts in this thread, Square messed with those too. So maybe that's what feels off?

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thank you for double checking, it might be lighting messing with me then!

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Originally Posted by phnxrsngs

thank you for double checking, it might be lighting messing with me then!

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You're welcome! I thought the nostrils looked off on my character for a moment, but I cross-referenced it with some screenshots and they were apparently always that way in Dawntrail. Of course, I could be wrong, after looking at 7.2's lighting changes for so long, my eyes are toast. To my eye though, looks the same.

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Originally Posted by Heavenchild

For example Ryne or Sphene. Both are technically Hyr. But both are muuuch slimer and more elegant than actual female Hyr bodies.

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This is a bit off-topic and whereas I definitely agree we need more variety in body types I don't think Sphene and Ryne are more elegant than current Hyur women. Female Hyurs are perfectly beautiful (and middies are already incredibly thin and idealised) so I don't really feel good about calling female characters/anime-ish body types* that are almost on the childlike side "superior" in the sense of them being "much more elegant".

(Elegant is kind of subjective too. Somebody else might say an adult woman of the "grande dame" type is elegant. Some may find elegance in strong and prideful characters like female highlanders. Personally I don't think petite anime girls that can easily be confused for a minor are The one ultimate pinnacle of elegance tbh.)

I'm not even saying we shouldn't get their body types, I just don't like the reasoning (and I don't think they should be the default). Nitpicky I know. : P


* This is no jab at real women who have thin and petite body types. I hope it's clear that I'm talking about these very specific, unrealistic anime body types.

What exactly did they do?
Because,

- hair is 'still' floating on the heads.
- seams are 'still' super obvious.
- skin around scales 'still' looks like it has an allergic reaction.

Also that odd middie rash on the faces?

Is there a list of the things that have been changed or "fixed" or whatever you want to call it?

I'm having a hard time getting myself together maybe because of the stress associated with the graphics update. Sorry for writing and erasing it over and over again

My best friend's character (face 2 male Roe) seems to have reduced ugly shadows under the eyes and changed eyebrows, his beautiful emerald eyes are back too. And the hellsguard characters got the black pattern at the tip of their nose back.

And I'm glad the characters of people who were unhappy with the graphics seem to have regained some of their previous appearances. SE seems to be doing both face graphics fixes and graphic updates of previous versions of modeling, so I think that's why it's so delayed and biased.

In 7.1 we've only received philtrum-related updates, which has led to distrust of SE, but after seeing the characters that have had a definite change in 7.2 I'm getting a little bit of trust in SE

Still my character is nothing like before, and there's no change in this update. But I believe my WoL's face will also come back one day.

I just want SE to let us know the plan and changes for the graphic modification. Like communicating.

It's pretty hard to shout at a wall that's been unresponsive for nearly nine months.

https://i.ibb.co/JwbRJKcb/Kakao-Talk...4232217-01.gif

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Originally Posted by shinjyu

I just want SE to let us know the plan and changes for the graphic modification. Like communicating.

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I agree, I feel like quite a lot of issues could be solved or at least mitigate if they would simply tell us what's been changed. Surely it can't be too hard to include a bulletpoint list of stuff like "normal maps were adjusted for Race X Face Y, textures changed for Race Z Faces F-H" etc. But god forbid we get actual communication on changes made to characters that we were promised from the beginning "oh, we're gonna try really hard to make sure there aren't any drastic differences in how they look".

There's been something bothering me about the current male midlander face 6 and I've been putting off saying it because I feel like it's an unpopular opinion and I'm highly doubtful it will come back but one of the parts that I miss the most are the prominent eye bags. They're so specific and real and is so much of the face's personality and I'm really sad about it.

It's not just the dark circle directly under the eye (that's partially due to the "makeup") but the lighter part under it and then another dark line/shadow. I can see a hint of it in the new model but it's reduced and oddly flat, in a way that looks like dirty skin rather than dark circles. It's probably greedy/selfish of me to ask this but if possible, I'd like his dark circles back.

6.58
https://i.imgur.com/wflrUnt.png
https://i.imgur.com/TZdEaHp.png

7.0-7.2 It doesn't look like a shadow and it doesn't extend as far.
https://i.imgur.com/XhKFBeh.png

I've made post before about this but until this day the problem I have with the model update have not been resolved, so another post to express my disappointment so far with the 7.2 update. during EW character still had their lips shaped nicely and unique but not everything looks round, there's other things that are also weird, like the eyes and eyebrow

but for me the most noticeable features that got changed was the lips

I'm using wildwood Elezen, face 2, mouth option 2
while the other lips option still have the tubercles, the specific option that I use, it have been removed as shown below
https://i.imgur.com/Qo4xuQi.png

here's also my comparison, pardon for the low ish quality of the image I have no idea how to make it face the exact same angle so I tried to not touch it much

(having a really bad trouble with the lips shape specifically)

the eyes also looks way too soft now.. and the lighter eye color doesn't look as glowy, it looks dead

https://i.imgur.com/e75lnoQ.png

I wish they'd add the old mouth as an additional option instead of replacing it, I have no idea if someone likes the new one but I really want the old one back

I know male Elezen is low priority at BEST since I'm assuming not a lot of people play the race in comparison to other ones

but I hope it does get worked on , I've been logging in and getting upset from looking at my character since DT update now, so I try to stay off the game , I really wish I can get back to playing again without being upset by how my character look :/

https://i.imgur.com/sPWq5dPl.png
https://i.imgur.com/n9zLYSjl.png
https://i.imgur.com/fofalH9l.png
https://i.imgur.com/P5Vgm7Ul.png

Pre-Dawntrail / First Benchmark / Second Benchmark + Dawntrail / Patch 7.2

I agree the First Benchmark didn’t feel right, like she was modeled to fit a more generic beauty standard. However, I wish they wouldn’t have given me nearly a year to decide I liked what they settled on for the Second Benchmark, and ultimately Dawntrail, better than the original.

If they were going to try to mimic the same exact eyes, I wish they would have done that from that start. I preferred the softer eye shape and fuller lashes for my character — both of which were lost in 7.2. I suppose you’ll never make everyone happy, though…

I also agree with this post about how the eyes have become “boxy” in a way they weren’t even Pre-Dawntrail.

Additionally: I noticed they lightened the brows again. I assume that’s because of the complaint about lighter colors looking strange, but I don’t like how they kept flip-flopping on that matter, either.

I'm actually extremely glad they lightened the brows a tad. For lighter colors on darker skin, the brows went from clearly visible to barely there.
I cannot express how nice it is to no longer be a male Highlander as a Moonkeeper Miqote for no good reason.

Pre-Dawntrail
https://i.imgur.com/qVoYgTD.png
https://imgur.com/ESmAImj.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/rKi3PUx.jpeg

Post-Dawntrail, Pre-7.2
https://imgur.com/7HtE6s7.jpeg
https://imgur.com/5ofkM49.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/8TqB9OA.jpeg

Patch 7.2
https://i.imgur.com/x2LQUyJ.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/5lwkkZY.jpeg

This is something that's been messed up since the second benchmark and I'm so SO happy they finally fixed it.

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Originally Posted by smitten_miquitten

This is something that's been messed up since the second benchmark and I'm so SO happy they finally fixed it.

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Oh, so it was for that! Then I’m glad it got fixed! :D

Ty!
It's a shame it took some of the darkness from your character's though. Idk why they can't seem to get the balance right.

I doubt it'll happen, but I really hope the hotfix on the 30th fixes the blatant eyelid bug happening with the majority of expressions. Both the JP and ENG bug report threads have a lot of upvotes, and yet neither has moved to "Confirmed/Planning to Fix" yet. Are we really going to have to wait another 4 months for this to get fixed, just like with the twitching/spasming that plagued expressions in 7.0? I really hope not, since this ruins a lot of portraits... It just feels like such unacceptable quality assurance.

https://imgur.com/a/QdgrTZo
Click here for image Added URL since embed wasnt working
Hoping to get some attention to this for me and the other hellsguard femroe
changed my skin colour so it's clearly visible that they have turned the nose shadow into a nose smudge
I didn't notice until I started doing the MSQ, which looked wrong in the cutscenes. Had to get into Gpose to see what was weird (my Femroe is dark-skinned normally)
Hoping this gets fixed/reverted because a Fantasia won't solve this as it affects all Hellsguard.

Pretty sure the darker nose smudge is a fix. Wasn't the smudge pretty dark Pre-Dawntrail and weirdly light afterward? I recall seeing post from Femroe players complaining about it, along with the loss of their more colorful pupils.

I'm adding to say this is correct. Before Dawntrail, the nose smudge was darker. This is indeed a fix, as many of us have complained about it being lighter or non-existent in Dawntrail.

I remember seeing threads specifically about the nose-smudge back when the DT Benchmark came out. A quick look and here's one, two, and three threads regarding the absence, and I believe it was mentioned in a few of the compilation threads as well. It is indeed a longstanding feature of the Hellsguard, glad to see it's been somewhat brought back at last. Hope they'll continue to return the features they've removed from folks' characters. Part of the original stated goal of the graphics change was to 'preserve the spirit and feel of the characters', be nice to see that finally happen.

Will they roll out a list of what was actually done? I assume there were changes to the lighting, because a hair color I used to think was dull now looks brighter(and i now use it). But for my viera I notice nothing else is different.

That’s one thing left to be desired. I wish they’d make the effort to at least tell us what they’ve changed rather than doing them silently. It comes across like they’re trying to see how much changes they can leave untouched & still get away from it.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

That’s one thing left to be desired. I wish they’d make the effort to at least tell us what they’ve changed rather than doing them silently. It comes across like they’re trying to see how much changes they can leave untouched & still get away from it.

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Yeah, the persistent lack of transparency around these updates is just so frustrating, but it also absolutely feels calculated to me. We're given definitive lists of which zones and gear are being updated, but we're just left to vibe out the character updates, which are infinitely more personal to players. If the goal isn't to continue understating the problem by obfuscation, I'd be surprised.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

It comes across like they’re trying to see how much changes they can leave untouched & still get away from it.

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It feels like exactly this. This patch was the last time I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I thought there were more changes than there really were until I had time to look at everything and I feel foolish. At this point, I will assume nothing has changed unless I see absolute proof with my own eyes.

As the title says. My fem elezen's former lip color has quite literally been removed from the game.

This is what she looked like with lipstick 41 in Endwalker:

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...5e81d851c9.png

And this is what she looks like with the same lip color in Dawntrail:

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...71c15f21d7.png

The lipstick is darker and the way it's colored makes it look almost caked on, whereas before her lip color looked more natural. So I thought, okay, I'll just remove her lipstick. That should look more "natural" right? Wrong. THIS is what Face 3 looks like with NO lipstick.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...0a338535aa.png

So I tried using lipstick 42 and 40. 42 is too dark and 40 is too light.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...e2c18c05c4.png

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...92b90336cf.png

I literally can't give her the same lip color she had before. And that's to say nothing about how they've made her look about 10 years older with the rest of the changes to her face. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by Kiara_Mela

I've not seen anyone mention it yet, but Keeper of the Moon female face 3 used to have an area of freckles / redness across the upper cheeks and nose that I thought was really cute, and that's gone entirely with Dawntrail. The new face 3 has extremely "flat" skin with no texture or colour variation that tends to make it look like I'm wearing heavy makeup, especially combined with what they did to the eyes that made the mascara look significantly more pronounced (unclear how much this is the eyelashes vs the change to eye shape?). This has been by far the most significant change for me, in terms of how my character feels, and I really hope it can be fixed. I miss my cute freckles!

https://i.postimg.cc/rp7GbZcS/comparison-small.webp
(face 3, jaw 3, eye 6, eyebrow 2, nose 3, mouth 3)

My face stripes are also pulled back a little and fade out on the end, which I dislike for reasons similar to disliking the attempt to reduce the cute fangs. I'm a cat, my cat features should be front and center, y'know? Like the freckles / skin texture variation, they add character.

All of the above contributes to a sense of my face being physically flatter -- I can't tell whether this is an actual geometry change or just there being a lot less shading and variation highlighting facial contours.

My face also feels rounder, but while there's been a small geometry change there, most of the effect there comes from the lighting no longer casting shadows on my jaw in the same way, making it look significantly rounder from the front. This seems like probably the same underlying issues as the face flatness thing.

I don't super love the eye shape changes or the lil mouth dimples, but plenty of others have gone into the issues there already.

Also you can't tell in the aetherial sea lighting above, but my hair colour used to have an orange tint to it under most lighting conditions, but is now chocolate brown. It doesn't seem possible to get closer than this to the colour I used to have, unfortunately.

On a positive note, the high resolution hair texture is really nice, it looks a lot better than the old one.

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Unfortunately it seems that 7.2 again hasn't fixed anything on my face -- with the exception of some subtle lighting changes (that might be a light source in a different place between shots), it's pixel-for-pixel identical to 7.0.

I miss my freckles and natural blush and eye / eye lash shape :(.

Probably deserves its own thread, but a couple of graphics related things I would like to see improved are cloth physics so certain gear moves around less plasticy, and better blending of combat, and running/walking animations so there's less scooting around while in battle.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Probably deserves its own thread, but a couple of graphics related things I would like to see improved are cloth physics so certain gear moves around less plasticy, and better blending of combat, and running/walking animations so there's less scooting around while in battle.

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A fair amount of the "physics" in clothing is actually hard baked into animations. If you've ever noticed that long coats (Rebel coat is probably a good example) act suspiciously like skirts, this is why. This is also why every piece of clothing seems to have the same "weight". There's some actual simulation stuff going on with wind (Garuda arena for eg) though.

As for the blending/scooting, I don't think they're ever gonna rework that, it seems to be part of the game's style at this point. Though I didn't think we'd ever get more dynamic mount movement so I hope I'm wrong.

Yeah, long jackets look p cool just standing still in preview pics, but in-game, they're stuck to their legs, which looks a bit silly. It's one of the reasons I disliked some long caster robes since they don't really flow due to MMO limitations.

Just a head's up for anyone hoping for a resolution for the eyelids eye tracking bug, BOTH reports on it were moved to the duplicate bugs category erroneously, so neither will be investigated as per policy.

Perhaps its a mistake, but one that should never have been made. It makes me wish we could report bugs some way other than this accursed forum as we're always beholden to the community team's operations who often miss the mark.

https://i.imgur.com/c3kRUKE.png

Incompetence.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Just a head's up for anyone hoping for a resolution for the eyelids eye tracking bug, BOTH reports on it were moved to the duplicate bugs category erroneously, so neither will be investigated as per policy.

Perhaps its a mistake, but one that should never have been made. It makes me wish we could report bugs some way other than this accursed forum as we're always beholden to the community team's operations who often miss the mark.

https://i.imgur.com/c3kRUKE.png

Incompetence.

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I saw this too and was absolutely baffled by it. The ENG bug report organization is a mess. At the very least, if it offers any hope, the JP bug report thread about the same issue remains in the "Accepted" section.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

I saw this too and was absolutely baffled by it. The ENG bug report organization is a mess. At the very least, if it offers any hope, the JP bug report thread about the same issue remains in the "Accepted" section.

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Then I will chalk it up to them only accepting one bug report among all languages and hope that is the case, as this was utterly baffling to me.
My character looks terrible with this bug, I can't even use the smile emote without looking like a psychopath and when Idling with my partner, my eyes never center on her, they're always off to one side or the other. Its so weird!!

I've taken to using /content or no emotes at all and have found that even my portraits are irreparably damaged as a result.
So hopefully they are investing the Japanese report and we will see a resolution by 7.21 and this is not something that can remain until 7.3.

If they were willing to fix the Male Auri tornado face bug, then they should prioritize this as four and a half months of telling the vast majority of players that their emotes are going to look wonky across the board is unacceptable imo.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Just a head's up for anyone hoping for a resolution for the eyelids eye tracking bug, BOTH reports on it were moved to the duplicate bugs category erroneously, so neither will be investigated as per policy.

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This means they are already tracking this bug and don't need to be told about it anymore, not that they are ignoring it and will not investigate it. It means they are literally *not* ignoring it.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

This means they are already tracking this bug and don't need to be told about it anymore, not that they are ignoring it and will not investigate it. It means they are literally *not* ignoring it.

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As per the duplicate bugs pin:
https://i.imgur.com/OEXPfPN.png

So yes, IF these would have been the only two reports on it, that would have constituted them ignoring it. The wording is not ambiguous.
However, as I've been made aware of, there is a Japanese thread that received far more traction than those two threads combined, so they moved the others to duplicate bugs.

Even so, there should be a note on the duplicate bugs forums that duplicate bugs reported in ANY language count towards the arbitrary, nonsensical rule of "only one report", as it gives the impression that they do not care about certain feedback when in reality they already have a bug reported in another language. Its an operational oversight, one that I honestly expect at this point but am still disappointed in them over.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

So yes, IF these would have been the only two reports on it, that would have constituted them ignoring it.

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No "if". Duplicate bugs are duplicates, therefore somewhere exists an original that the duplicate reports are duplicating. The bug report forum is part of their workflow and gets looked at constantly. They will *of course* shuffle off duplicate reports and not address them specifically. Addressing the same bug nine or ten times when once will suffice is an atrocious waste of time. "Address one bug once" is not remotely an "arbitrary and nonsensical" rule.

The bug report forum isn't there to make anyone feel heard or to give anyone any impression about anything. Though in my experience, it has made me feel more heard than for any other game I've reported bugs. Because they've not only responded directly to me in-game about bugs reports I've made, but they've fixed them.

Congratulations on your pedantry. Aniya had already acknowledged their mistake by the time you responded. Let's move on.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Just a head's up for anyone hoping for a resolution for the eyelids eye tracking bug, BOTH reports on it were moved to the duplicate bugs category erroneously, so neither will be investigated as per policy.

Perhaps its a mistake, but one that should never have been made. It makes me wish we could report bugs some way other than this accursed forum as we're always beholden to the community team's operations who often miss the mark.

https://i.imgur.com/c3kRUKE.png

Incompetence.

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I'm the one that posted the bug about the Ponder emote and I'm going to be more than a little irritated if it was marked as a "Duplicate" because some other player replied to it claiming it was related to an eyelids tracking bug. It is not. It is specifically an issue with the eyes themselves not tracking correctly. I really wish people wouldn't screw up other people's bug reports with erroneous information/guesses.