Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[noumen0nn]

Edit: I read too fast and didn't see that you and SchwarzwälderTorte already discussed this very issue (reading is hard). :'D
I'll keep the post up though as an extra reminder for the devs, hoping they'll pick up on this particular point of feedback because I agree the missing line is a big problem.

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Looking at those comparisons something that I was never really able to put into words suddenly became clear to me.
(I can't edit any images right now. I hope I can explain it well enough.)

In addition to all the criticism people have pointed out, 6.x mouths have a much deeper shadow around the line where the upper and lower lip meet, leading to a darker "line" between the upper and the lower lip.

So even if the shape itself may be similar (e.g. both versions have the slight "downards dip" of the upper lip in the middle of the line where the upper and lower lip meet) the visual effect is completely different due to the weak, almost non-existent, shadow between the upper and the lower lip. It's almost inexistent.

This strong shadow adds a lot of character and quite literally defines the shape and the expression much better, resulting in a more striking and pronounced appearance.

This is a really important element for the unique look of the different mouths because even though the line between the lips itself may technically be similar if you look really hard you just don't properly perceive it if the defining shadows are lacking, robbing it of its characteristic impact.
The 7.0+ lips look so wishy-washy in comparison because the line between the upper and the lower lip is so weak and undefined that it just doesn't stand out as a feature and has no strong character.

This issue is not related to the lighting engine I think because this line's shadow is always weak and undefined.

This is why it's not enough to fix the outer shapes of the lower and upper lip (e.g., cupid bow), the expression (slight smile or frown) and the duckface/puffy cheeks (although all of them also need to be fixed!)
They also really need to add this definition between the lower and upper lip back in (e.g., by "hand-painting" the depth back in).

This is exactly what I meant a few weeks ago. They removed nearly all of the baked-in shadows from our characters and expected the new lighting engine to do the work, but it just doesn't. It's not just lips either; go and stand in a sunny area and face your character directly toward the direction of the sunlight, and you will barely be able to make out your jawline against your character's neck. We need some form of the baked-in shadows back, because the kinds of shadows the devs were clearly hoping would be taken care of by the lighting cannot be rendered short of ray tracing being added to the game.

[Glitchima]

-snip-

i agree with you on the overall basis that more customization is always good generally speaking. More options for bodies, more options for faces and various other kinds of features is something that I really hope that we get to see in the future.
But I also kind of disagree that there's no elegant character options? At least from my perspective, most f models, but imo especially au ra and miqo girls are already incredibly skinny, almost to the point that it bothers me, but its treading a fine line where i think its just acceptable, i feel like anything smaller and i would feel kind of weird about it. I feel like male viera also perfectly fit the more elegant look, what with their sort of androgynous appearance, which is the whole point of vieras as a whole.

Overall, what we have now is perfectly fine as the standard look (and to me an overall basis for a slimmer character for most races), but adding more features is definitely a good idea long-term if they don't really plan to introduce more races. I've been begging for au ra horns to stop relying on face types since the day Heavensward came out, and it's still something I wish for them to change, for example.

Though I guess right now, they are occupied by the issues of transitioning to DT's new look and it seems like a lot of their time working on character stuff is just trying to fix things that 'broke' since DT's release. It'll be a long while before they introduce anything as exciting as more features in the character creator, i'm afraid.

[phnxrsngs]

is there anyone able to confirm if femra face 2 was changed in 7.2? i keep looking at my lizard and i feel like something is different or off about their face but i can't put my finger on it and it's really frustrating me

[Perella]

is there anyone able to confirm if femra face 2 was changed in 7.2? i keep looking at my lizard and i feel like something is different or off about their face but i can't put my finger on it and it's really frustrating me

I logged into my own Face 2 FemRa just to check, and while I don't have a 1:1 comparison, it looks like everything is the same on her, though 7.2 also changed the lighting drastically, and if your FemRa has Limbals, if I recall from prior posts in this thread, Square messed with those too. So maybe that's what feels off?

[Heavenchild]

i agree with you on the overall basis that more customization is always good generally speaking. More options for bodies, more options for faces and various other kinds of features is something that I really hope that we get to see in the future.
But I also kind of disagree that there's no elegant character options? At least from my perspective, most f models, but imo especially au ra and miqo girls are already incredibly skinny, almost to the point that it bothers me, but its treading a fine line where i think its just acceptable, i feel like anything smaller and i would feel kind of weird about it. I feel like male viera also perfectly fit the more elegant look, what with their sort of androgynous appearance, which is the whole point of vieras as a whole.

Overall, what we have now is perfectly fine as the standard look (and to me an overall basis for a slimmer character for most races), but adding more features is definitely a good idea long-term if they don't really plan to introduce more races. I've been begging for au ra horns to stop relying on face types since the day Heavensward came out, and it's still something I wish for them to change, for example.

Though I guess right now, they are occupied by the issues of transitioning to DT's new look and it seems like a lot of their time working on character stuff is just trying to fix things that 'broke' since DT's release. It'll be a long while before they introduce anything as exciting as more features in the character creator, i'm afraid.

I agree that there is not a real need for slimer females. I just said that some NPC's have slimer models. And that I wonder why just NPC's get those.
What really bothers me is the lack for male characters. Male Viera are a little but slimer, yes. And more elegant. But they are way too big, and have too wide shoulders. (And the missing hats and hairstyles :') )
(They are okay as they are! But they are not the type I am talking about.)

There are plenty of options for female characters to fit almost every bodytype. But it's impossible to make some kind of 'really' handsome dude, like we see them in most anime series or other japanese/korean/chinese games.

And there is no race for males that fits: handsome and/or cute, small, slim and somehow elegant. It's female Aura for females. But males are all forced to be tall and/or with wider bodys and partly stiff animations (Hyur).

[phnxrsngs]

I logged into my own Face 2 FemRa just to check, and while I don't have a 1:1 comparison, it looks like everything is the same on her, though 7.2 also changed the lighting drastically, and if your FemRa has Limbals, if I recall from prior posts in this thread, Square messed with those too. So maybe that's what feels off?

thank you for double checking, it might be lighting messing with me then!

[Perella]

thank you for double checking, it might be lighting messing with me then!

You're welcome! I thought the nostrils looked off on my character for a moment, but I cross-referenced it with some screenshots and they were apparently always that way in Dawntrail. Of course, I could be wrong, after looking at 7.2's lighting changes for so long, my eyes are toast. To my eye though, looks the same.

[Loggos]

For example Ryne or Sphene. Both are technically Hyr. But both are muuuch slimer and more elegant than actual female Hyr bodies.

This is a bit off-topic and whereas I definitely agree we need more variety in body types I don't think Sphene and Ryne are more elegant than current Hyur women. Female Hyurs are perfectly beautiful (and middies are already incredibly thin and idealised) so I don't really feel good about calling female characters/anime-ish body types* that are almost on the childlike side "superior" in the sense of them being "much more elegant".

(Elegant is kind of subjective too. Somebody else might say an adult woman of the "grande dame" type is elegant. Some may find elegance in strong and prideful characters like female highlanders. Personally I don't think petite anime girls that can easily be confused for a minor are The one ultimate pinnacle of elegance tbh.)

I'm not even saying we shouldn't get their body types, I just don't like the reasoning (and I don't think they should be the default). Nitpicky I know. : P


* This is no jab at real women who have thin and petite body types. I hope it's clear that I'm talking about these very specific, unrealistic anime body types.

[IzVale]

What exactly did they do?
Because,

- hair is 'still' floating on the heads.
- seams are 'still' super obvious.
- skin around scales 'still' looks like it has an allergic reaction.

Also that odd middie rash on the faces?

Is there a list of the things that have been changed or "fixed" or whatever you want to call it?

[shinjyu]

I'm having a hard time getting myself together maybe because of the stress associated with the graphics update. Sorry for writing and erasing it over and over again

My best friend's character (face 2 male Roe) seems to have reduced ugly shadows under the eyes and changed eyebrows, his beautiful emerald eyes are back too. And the hellsguard characters got the black pattern at the tip of their nose back.

And I'm glad the characters of people who were unhappy with the graphics seem to have regained some of their previous appearances. SE seems to be doing both face graphics fixes and graphic updates of previous versions of modeling, so I think that's why it's so delayed and biased.

In 7.1 we've only received philtrum-related updates, which has led to distrust of SE, but after seeing the characters that have had a definite change in 7.2 I'm getting a little bit of trust in SE

Still my character is nothing like before, and there's no change in this update. But I believe my WoL's face will also come back one day.

I just want SE to let us know the plan and changes for the graphic modification. Like communicating.

It's pretty hard to shout at a wall that's been unresponsive for nearly nine months.