I wish people would get this idea out of their heads.Quote:
Originally Posted by chumsy
Both a Warrior and Paladin are TANKS and are designed to take, not deal, large amounts of damage.
The differences between these two jobs that fulfill the same role is the fact a Paladin handles incoming damage by outright reducing it while a Warrior is meant to heal back the damage they take (through dealing damage, yes, but this does not mean in any way that the Warrior was designed to produce anywhere near the level of DPS an actual damage dealing role would).
It is supposed to be a difference in styles, not numbers.
Warriors may 'hit harder' in a single move but the numbers have been ran, the DPS POTENTIAL of either tank falls within single digit %s of each other and are still leagues behind a real damage dealer.
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10-04-2013, 10:30 AMPhreak
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10-04-2013, 10:51 AMLeironYes,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
DPS parser? No point, Tank DPS is bad in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Strength? No point allocating into it. You don't get enough of a gain to allocate going into strength over Vitality right now. So its worthless.
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So you say, but it isn't so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Which is why you've yet to illustrate why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
50Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Don't need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Math doesn't lie.
Its a good thing I am hitting you with facts and not opinion right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Thank you for illustrating how good players, can still be just as ignorant as a level 1 newbie. -
10-04-2013, 01:41 PMkonfliktiMages primary function is not to tank. PLD gets a bonus mitigation slapped on their gear compared to warrior, while this is in no way compensated in either WAR gear or WAR skills. Can you truly say that this is not an oversight?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordCoheir
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10-04-2013, 04:42 PMSwordCoheirIt wasn't an oversight, they scaled PLD back because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
1.0:
+ Block rate/mitigation was based almost entirely on the Type of Shield.
+ Block Rate went up the higher level the mob was over you (you could block 50% of a fight w/o abilities if you were lucky).
+ PLD's could heal
+ Divine Veil gave 100% block rate, AoE regen, could be kept up 1/3 of the time.
+ Aegis Boon blocks and heals what you would've been hit for.
- Couldn't Parry with Shield
2.0:
- Lost all Healing Capabilities
- Shields block and mitigation rely almost entirely on a shields block rate/strength which is scaled much MUCH lower than 1.0.
- Block abilities were reduced in effectiveness (from 100% to 60%)
+ Can parry with shields now.
+/- Can full time -20% mitigation but have reduced damage in turn.
- Mitigation abilities have longer cooldowns and shorter durations -
10-04-2013, 05:54 PMkonflikti
Whatever happened before has no consequence whatsoever on the current situation. What you are arguing is that PLD getting 1.1 from gear compared to WARs 1.0 is moot. PLD gets an additional benefit from gear over WAR, which is not compensated in any way. My argument is that PLD gets more advantage from gear than WAR, while you are stating all manner of unrelated details about developement and balance process. To me it seems that you are arguing for the sake of arguing, while not bringing any meaningful input to this conversation.
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10-04-2013, 06:21 PMDuelleYou missed Sword's point (pun not intended). Mage gear is universal but because of the way BLM and SMN are designed you don't see one trample on the other when content becomes difficult. Same thing for WHM and SCH, despite their gear being also unified. When you have unified gear the gear stops being a factor in any discrepancies and poor performance, leaving the job's inherent mechanics to take the full blame if a job is sub-par or non-optimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
If you are bringing up shield blocking then you're not bringing up a gear issue, but a discrepancy due to mechanics. This, once again, goes under "job design", not gear or itemization. -
10-04-2013, 07:04 PMkonfliktiHow is it not a gear issue that PLD gets additional mitigation factor from their gear, which is not compensated in WAR gear in any way? If PLD could not parry, it would be fine. If WAR got some additional bonus to axe, it would be fine. This is an incredibly simple comparison, yet people are trying to divert this particular line of conversation to something different. Somehow PLD gear being WARGEAR+1 is not a gear issue, but mechanics issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
+STR, +VIT, +Parry, +Skillspeed != +STR, +VIT, +Parry, +Skillspeed, +Block
I guess you could even say that "unified gear" is not unified.
I do understand your angle of job design though, because the reason PLD has shield is because of job design and because of that there is block too. This is also part of my reason to start arguing against unified gear, because it leaves much less leeway for game designers to balance things between classes/jobs. If you give PLD and WAR the exact same gear, PLD will benefit from it more due to inherent skill based mitigation. If WAR could pick up, say, accessories that had VIT, STR, Accuracy/Crit Rating, instead of VIT, Parry, Accuracy, they could benefit more from their lifeleech abilities. -
10-04-2013, 07:38 PMDuelleBecause PLD isn't WARGEAR+1, but PLD. PLD has mitigation via inherent 20% from Shield oath, shield blocks and parries as well as a selection of cooldowns. WAR was given a ~7% mitigation with slightly higher uptime (Foresight), parries and +healing & self-heals in lieu of mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
Both wear the exact same Heavy Darklight set, both wear the exact same Allaghan set, both wear the exact same Heavy Darksteel set and both wear the exact same gear while leveling. Even from early on its easy to see tank gear was unified, so trying to use gear as a reason for why one is more optimal than the other is not only wrong, but pointless. Sword's comment on sword+shield not being superior to axe stat-wise also holds.
The only difference to draw from this is that PLD can block with shields and WAR cannot, which once again is a mechanics difference and not a gear difference. -
10-04-2013, 08:27 PMkonfliktiWhat stats does PLD need for his mitigation to work at maximum efficiency? None. What stats does WAR need for his (post-)mitigation to work at maximum efficiency? STR, skillspeed, crit rate, accuracy(this is kinda sketchy, since it is requirement to get this to certain level).Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
STR, crit rate and skillspeed are not available on tank accessories and out of the substats, only crit rate is available on limited pieces on armor. WAR thrives on active mitigation due to damage output being the primary factor for self-heals, but the unified armor set is only focused on passive mitigation, which is PLD forte. No other job in the game besides PLD gets an off-hand item with an additional effect that directly buffs their primary function. I am pretty sure BLMs would be bothered too if SMNs had an off-hand that added 20% to their damage while being statwise the same. On the other hand, I would not mind if axes had something specific to them that would counterbalance shield blocking (preferably something that would also be related to WAR skillpool).
I'd also appreciate it if you did not try to put words in my mouth as itemization being the prime reason behind the discrepancy. It is not. But it is also a factor worth considering. -
10-05-2013, 02:06 AMSwordCoheirPLD relies on DPS stats just as much as other jobs. If WAR and PLD share anything in common besides gear it's that their combo multiplers threat is directly affected through damage. The only difference is WAR's only have to focus on their direct damage threat rather than threat and Mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
In turn PLD relies on shield as well as part of their abilities require it to use them, it's not really something thats debatable in PLDs case and the mitigation can be seen as the tradeoff for having too rely on them. Either way my point still stands you're falling back on mechanics and not gear, even if they went back and took away PLD's ability to parry with a shield equipped again it still points to mechanics and job design not gear itself that is the problem. If it were a gear problem the devs would physically change something stat related to shields themselves and not the code that affects game mechanics.