What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Flames on the side of my head.

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OMG, is that a Clue reference?! I adore that film!

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Man, that speech by Cookingway was probably the single point in all story content across all of FFXIV that honestly made me angriest.

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For me it was Graha in 5.3 killing elidibus with his stupid speech of “your soul is mine!” Sit down catboy, you’re lucky your a fan favorite or i would’ve turned you into pop rocks myself >_>

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

OMG, is that a Clue reference?! I adore that film!

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https://cdn.moviestvnetwork.com/VGKf...ems-clue01.png

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

For me it was Graha in 5.3 killing elidibus with his stupid speech of “your soul is mine!” Sit down catboy, you’re lucky your a fan favorite or i would’ve turned you into pop rocks myself >_>

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https://i.pinimg.com/originals/92/74...5ca060daf9.gif

It's still weird to me that a throwaway NPC from ARR was elevated into such a prominent position. It really makes me think where the main story could have gone had it not sought to tie everything back to the Crystal Tower raids...

I'd have much preferred some of Matsuno's contributions to the story to tie in to the finale.

I liked a lot of it, but there were some points that were questionable like others have brought up.
"Don't try to better your lives, maintain the status quo!"

I truly hope you guys are speaking in terms of the game and not real life. Because this is getting legitimately worrying, less so for the game but not by much.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

I truly hope you guys are speaking in terms of the game and not real life. Because this is getting legitimately worrying, less so for the game but not by much.

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I think people are just starting to feel increasingly frustrated with every new post-Endwalker interview that releases showing how horribly conveyed a lot of the story's themes/messages were.

They've never had to do this much damage control in terms of trying to explain story points and their intent with certain writing choices that they felt players had "misinterpreted".

The bit about us being expected to find the Ancient culture "scary" was the most confusing by far as I've seen literally no one who walked away with that perspective regardless of whether or not they they took issue with Venat's actions.

I've largely loved XIV's story, but I really don't want it to continue going in a direction where the impressions we're getting from it are completely at odds with what the writers intended, especially when none of the prior expansions had such an issue.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I think people are just starting to feel increasingly frustrated with every new post-Endwalker interview that releases showing how horribly conveyed a lot of the story's themes/messages were.

They've never had to do this much damage control in terms of trying to explain story points and their intent with certain writing choices that they felt players had "misinterpreted".

The bit about us being expected to find the Ancient culture "scary" was the most confusing by far as I've seen literally no one who walked away with that perspective regardless of whether or not they they took issue with Venat's actions.

I've largely loved XIV's story, but I really don't want it to continue going in a direction where the impressions we're getting from it are completely at odds with what the writers intended, especially when none of the prior expansions had such an issue.

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While not scary, I found the ancient culture too decadent and self aggrandizing.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

I truly hope you guys are speaking in terms of the game and not real life. Because this is getting legitimately worrying, less so for the game but not by much.

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Well, considering we're on a game forum dedicated to discussion of the game I think it's safe to say we're talking about the game. No one needs to worry over me, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

While not scary, I found the ancient culture too decadent and self aggrandizing.

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I didn't. I don't remember who said it in this thread, but I agree with their sentiment that Elpis left me convinced that Emet-Selch was right and their society was overall better than what we've got on The Source. Even the things we were supposed to find questionable (how callously they disregard the lives of non-Ancients and how willing they are to die once their purpose is fulfilled) didn't strike me as all that terrible by comparison. The former just needed one good progressive movement and the latter was mostly a personal choice. Hell, for all we know, someone like Venat could have inspired other people to find new purposes.

I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but I sure didn't leave The World Unsundered thinking their civilization was better as a memory and that modern people dodged a bullet. Just the opposite, in fact.

Seeing the length of this thread, OP has probably had their nose pushed in the explanations on why they are wrong enough.

So I would like to add to that: OP did not understand the story

I found endbringer good and shadowbringers boring except Vauthry
opinions... how do they work

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Originally Posted by Ariabeth

Seeing the length of this thread, OP has probably had their nose pushed in the explanations on why they are wrong enough.

So I would like to add to that: OP did not understand the story

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The discussion rather quickly deviated away from "Reasons why the TC didn't like Endwalker" into "Reasons why people in general didn't like Endwalker".

People seem to be largely disinterested in engaging with any manner of negative critique, though I have noticed more and more chiming in with less then glowing opinions as time has gone on.

How to tell someone replied without reading any of the thread. :P

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I've largely loved XIV's story, but I really don't want it to continue going in a direction where the impressions we're getting from it are completely at odds with what the writers intended, especially when none of the prior expansions had such an issue.

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Same. I continually quote Lurina saying it felt like the writers and I weren't ethically on the same page because it's so apt and also deeply concerning going into what Yoshi-P has said will be a conflict in values. What values is my WoL going to be championing this time? What values are the antagonists going to hold that we're supposed to demonize and confuse the writers if we don't?

I've also heard no other expansion was as divisive as EW, but as someone who just started playing last year I wouldn't know.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

How to tell someone replied without reading any of the thread. :P



Same. I continually quote Lurina saying it felt like the writers and I weren't ethically on the same page because it's so apt and also deeply concerning going into what Yoshi-P has said will be a conflict in values. What values is my WoL going to be championing this time? What values are the antagonists going to hold that we're supposed to demonize and confuse the writers if we don't?

I've also heard no other expansion was as divisive as EW, but as someone who just started playing last year I wouldn't know.

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Hm. I started during Stormblood, which I think mostly got negative reception for its story. Heavensward and Shadowbringers were almost universally beloved.

I think Endwalker is suffering from "Fridge Logic"; before I finished it, I heard almost nothing but clamorous praise for it, but the closer to the end I got and the more spoiler-filled discussions I was able to participate in, the more people I found critical of it. That leads me to believe that the earliest players were the ones who were most eager to love it and least receptive to criticism, while the more measured players are the ones that started beating it in the following months. Also, some of those early players who are now coming down from the high of the "honeymoon phase" are either just starting to see criticisms they agree with or are rethinking some of their earlier takes.

As I've said a few times, I was absolutely loving the story right up until Elpis. That was the exact moment that the story started veering into "What the hell are you guys talking about?" territory.

All this being said, the people who dislike Endwalker's story or the expansion as a whole are still a minority. A growing minority, but still a minority.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

As I've said a few times, I was absolutely loving the story right up until Elpis. That was the exact moment that the story started veering into "What the hell are you guys talking about?" territory..

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Ah Elpis. Somehow both the best and worst zone of the game for me.

I have to say it’s just so frustrating. I think Garlemald and Thavnair was some of the best writing i’ve seen in this game. And then to go from that to the moon, and then to Elpis it was just…it’s just infuriating honestly. They had so much to work with, so much potential in everything to make this expansion exceed even Shadowbringers, but it’s like you can see exactly where they either stopped caring or just had to rush everything because they don’t want to work with the arc anymore. There were just so many things that scream last minute changes and dropped plot threads that it’s just immensely disappointing and sad.

I will agree that Elpis is where things seem to have gotten a little off the rails for me. It seemed like there was a purpose and momentum and then it kind of went into a screeching halt as the plot went into time travel which tends to always make a mess of things.

I zoned out through all of Elpis. All I recall was Hermes being a Ramuh reskin (how the christ hard was it to remove the beard polygon...) and Meteion played nothing but Yoko Taro games in their free time while watching people melt.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I have to say it’s just so frustrating. I think Garlemald and Thavnair was some of the best writing i’ve seen in this game. And then to go from that to the moon, and then to Elpis it was just…it’s just infuriating honestly. They had so much to work with, so much potential in everything to make this expansion exceed even Shadowbringers, but it’s like you can see exactly where they either stopped caring or just had to rush everything because they don’t want to work with the arc anymore. There were just so many things that scream last minute changes and dropped plot threads that it’s just immensely disappointing and sad.

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As much as I like Yoshi, I'm questioning how much of an influence he might've had on Endwalker's story because in the interviews he often seems really out of touch with his expectations on player reactions vs. how they actually reacted. Particularly in regards to not understanding the love for Emet-Selch where he seemed to think people would automatically find him unsympathetic because of all the death the Ascians caused, while simultaneously not understanding why others didn't approve of Venat when she similarly caused immeasurable amounts of suffering but for reasons that felt a lot less easily understood/justified.

I'm feeling like with this being the grand finale he might've felt like he wanted to have more say in how things played out for better or worse, especially with it being mentioned they went through multiple drafts of the story before they finally settled on one, plus they were supposedly still finalizing things up to just a few days before the actual launch.

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll ever know the truth of the matter. I can say I feel like what we got wasn't what Ishikawa intended, but without one of them explicitly saying that's the case (which I doubt they will) there's no proof other than numerous inconsistencies that are particularly perplexing given it's the same MSQ writer and EW directly follows ShB. It's not even just ShB, the artwork for 3.2 with Minfilia chained to the Mothercrystal certainly wasn't portraying Hydaelyn positively either and that was after they started rewriting the lore for the Ascians.

Side note: It's never addressed in ShB, but I've often wondered if Hydaleyn had any say in Minfilia essentially becoming (in her words) an Ascian herself and possessing young girls to fight to their deaths. Additionally, Emet stated regarding Ryne: "But to draw on her true power, you must become one, both body and soul. To wit, one being must consume the other." Half of Thancred's arc in ShB was accepting the loss of Minfilia should Ryne choose her own destiny. Yet, in EW this is all completely undone. Somehow, Ryne got the power of the Oracle but Minfilia's soul returned to the aetherial sea where it was then ushered by Hydaelyn to the Source.

Elpis being a time loop following an expansion with an AU was also an odd choice and confusing to players like myself who were not familiar with Alexander. Venat keeping her memories was probably the most problematic part, they were never going to be able to justify the sundering of more than Zodiark being intentional and even less so with knowledge of the future. It's the one part of the story I don't understand how audiences gloss over unless they bought into the poorly substantiated premise that the Ancients were doomed. As a big fan of both Emet and Hythlodaeus, I felt like time travel without the ability to change anything was sadistic. I would've much preferred Echo flashbacks and there wasn't a reason not to do that since we had access at one point or another to every character who was there.

At any rate, I think Yoshi-P needs to trust his writers. I think he's a good director and producer and I appreciate the amount of effort he puts into making cutscenes just right, but I started having concerns as soon as I found out he wanted to rush the end of the Ancients, probably the most popular storyline and characters in the series to move on to something completely new.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Brings a specific comic to my mind:

"Me invent wheel."

"You am play gods!"

Yeah, this is a consistent problem I've noticed for any story that wants to preach the folly of reaching for perfection and yet also wants to reaffirm the morality of altruism. You want me to have feels about helping people in need, but you also want to say no one should want for better? What?

So then, where is the magic line between improving other peoples' lives for the better and simply accepting and making the most of one's suffering? Mayhaps we indulged in purest hubris when we developed a cure for Tempering after 12 millennium. If only we had learned to make the most of it and simply rested our weary souls in Lakshmi's bosom.

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Reminds me of one ffxiv redditor about how arenvald shouldn't get new magitek tech to help him walks again because it'll be "erasing his character growth" and he should be wheelchair bound for the rest of his life.

I mean, yeah I get the sentiment, but there's a difference between wanting someone/yourself to live better and being obsessed with impossible things (which magitek is not, in term of ffxiv world). Sometimes it's okay to not accept suffering.

Regarding the temper cure... I was thinking, what if it makes war between tribes/nation usng primals to be possible. After all, we only need crystals and faith. One thing that makes primal summoning dangerous and bad in the long run is due to how they temper their followers to serve the primal instead. Now that mindless temper isn't a thing, what stopping nations with access to big quantity of crystal to summon primals for war purposes?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

It's not even just ShB, the artwork for 3.2 with Minfilia chained to the Mothercrystal certainly wasn't portraying Hydaelyn positively either and that was after they started rewriting the lore for the Ascians.

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The big problem with that artwork of Minfilia is that it isn't something you will ever come across naturally in the process of playing the game. If they wanted it to be an ominous warning of Hydaelyn's true nature then it (or something close to it) needed to appear within the game itself for everyone to see in the course of the story. Instead we only get the impression that Minfilia went to Hydaelyn as a willing servant, loyal even once freed back to her own consciousness in 3.4.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Elpis being a time loop following an expansion with an AU was also an odd choice and confusing to players like myself who were not familiar with Alexander.

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Meanwhile, as someone who did play Alexander and subsequently spent some time hammering out a time travel theory that made sense of it and Shadowbringers existing in the same narrative, I was pleased to see that time travel here seemed consistent with my previous theory: that time naturally forms a loop unless the traveller does something to contradict their own future, at which point a new timeline branches off to contain the new events. At the end of this, the traveller would (for better or worse) likely be trapped in the new timeline with no way back to their own.

By doing so we would doom our own world to destruction, while not technically saving the ancients from any of the suffering to come. At best we could make a second copy of time where they survive, but that will not save them in the timeline we come from.

More on that below, but back in the topic of Alexander: I think it is simply the nature of the game, at this point, that the writers will incorporate plot points from side quests in ways that the main plot makes more sense if you've played the others. You're clearly expected to play them as you go. The important ones probably need to be a bit more signposted, if not made mandatory – CT now has a couple of "you really should do this" comments from the MSQ, so they could add the same heavy hinting for Alexander and Omega and anything else that gets raised in future.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Pretty sure they said that creating a new timeline is a possibility. So, worst case scenario, the WOL could save that timeline's Elpis but her own world would still be fighting the Final Days.

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While we potentially can create a new timeline if we stay there long enough to avert any chance of a Sundering – not just the scenario we ultimately saw but any deliberate or accidental process that could cause it – anything short of achieving that would likely end up being part of the known timeline one way or another because we have basically no idea of what we are trying to avert.

And if we succeeded, we would have no way back to the original world that we are trying to save by acquiring information about how the original Final Days started.

Whether you like the ancient world or not, narratively that would be a terribly poor thing to just abandon everything the player has ever done and seen and worked so hard to save up to this point. Abandon all their friends to a likely doom, or almost certainly exile from their home planet if they survive.

The feeling Elpis is clearly intended to evoke, to me, is that we are ultimately viewing events that happened in the distant past and cannot interfere or we risk dooming our present and our friends.

Someone above said they'd rather it were treated as a series of Echo visions, but I feel like that's already what it was – we were warned from the start by Elidibus that we must not try to change things. We are there as an observer, trying to learn what already happened. We were not intended to go there with the mindset of changing things.

On further thought, I don't know if we could even avert the Sundering if we tried, because we have so little knowledge to contradict. All we know is that someone called Venat, who we only saw as an anonymised recording, would create Hydaelyn at some point after Zodiark's creation. We have no dates for any of this. It could play out over millennia for all we actually know. It could be a different Venat altogether.

Avert one scenario and another may simply emerge to take its place.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Hm. I started during Stormblood, which I think mostly got negative reception for its story. Heavensward and Shadowbringers were almost universally beloved.

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Personally speaking, as always, I've been playing since ARR - and though I had my own list of criticisms about Stormblood, they were relatively "light" and mostly about craft and execution while recognizing there was mostly good intent, at least, behind the ideas. I'm projecting, maybe, but that was also generally the vibe I saw around most Stormblood criticism in general. Things like: Lyse as a character was developed clumsily, especially given all the focus on her - the pacing and focus were misaligned, too much repetition in the zone scenarios, so on and so forth. As far as "deeper" stuff, my main impression was, "this seems to be a well-intended expansion about colonialism written by people who don't actually know or have much experience with colonialism." Clearly trying to be thoughtful, but inevitably reductive and awkward regardless. Nothing really brain-breaking, at least.

Meanwhile, Endwalker criticism has a fundamentally different tenor that's more about "um, did the game I've loved for ten years suddenly swerve into basically doing a full-throated genocide apologism?"

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Originally Posted by Brinne

As far as "deeper" stuff, my main impression was, "this seems to be a well-intended expansion about colonialism written by people who don't actually know or have much experience with colonialism."

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Genuine question, do you have some examples of why would you think like that about the story?

Just curious though! It's fine if you don't want to answer.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Genuine question, do you have some examples of why would you think like that about the story?

Just curious though! It's fine if you don't want to answer.

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Oh, sure. I'm certainly nowhere near an expert in colonialist theory or anything, don't get me wrong. The reason I felt that way was because it felt like Stormblood often brought up concepts related to it, and then just sort of didn't quite know what to do with them, falling back on "um, and then things worked out because everyone was inspired by our hot-blooded heroism?" For example, Lyse's issues with diaspora, which I thought were potentially really interesting when first brought up - but then it sort of fell to the wayside and wasn't explored further until suddenly after spending some time with Hien (?????), everyone now believes in her and she's able to lead the Resistance based on her relationship to her father and sister (??????). Or, for example, it's obvious Stormblood was aware of the question of generations of younger people who had integrated into the oppressors' culture - or taking into considerations whatever valid reasons ordinary people would have to submit rather join an uprising - but didn't really present a compelling solution or deeper exploration for it beyond the WoL's personal charisma inspiring the population to stand up anyway.

Stormblood also sort of had problems in figuring out whether violent revolution was justified or not - see the common criticisms regarding the samurai job quests, and also, uh, frankly, no one in FFXIV has ever won as hard as Ilberd Feare, in terms of his methods and goals working out basically exactly the way he wanted to. (Venat would be very proud!) Ala Mhigo in general also honestly had a really interesting setup in the way Garlemald took advantage of its internal turmoil and civil war that resulted from its own extremely troubled history, and how that intersected with the "people who had integrated" issue, as well as the long-running unwillingness of the other city-states to help them - but this was largely brushed over and not really talked about in any depth within the MSQ. The fight for liberation, as far as Ala Mhigo was concerned, felt like it was treated is as generalized and broad a way as possible, with the possible exception of my beloved Fordola. Who, you know, is my wife. Wait what?

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Huh? You mean because of time travel?

Pretty sure they said that creating a new timeline is a possibility. So, worst case scenario, the WOL could save that timeline's Elpis but her own world would still be fighting the Final Days.

Even if not, I personally wouldn't care. I'm the kind of person who wouldn't hesitate to go back in time and erase slavery and/or the Holocaust even if it erased me from existence.

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Yep, the possibility of AUs pretty much nullifies that whole issue as a concern.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Hm. I started during Stormblood, which I think mostly got negative reception for its story. Heavensward and Shadowbringers were almost universally beloved.

I think Endwalker is suffering from "Fridge Logic"; before I finished it, I heard almost nothing but clamorous praise for it, but the closer to the end I got and the more spoiler-filled discussions I was able to participate in, the more people I found critical of it. That leads me to believe that the earliest players were the ones who were most eager to love it and least receptive to criticism, while the more measured players are the ones that started beating it in the following months. Also, some of those early players who are now coming down from the high of the "honeymoon phase" are either just starting to see criticisms they agree with or are rethinking some of their earlier takes.

As I've said a few times, I was absolutely loving the story right up until Elpis. That was the exact moment that the story started veering into "What the hell are you guys talking about?" territory.

All this being said, the people who dislike Endwalker's story or the expansion as a whole are still a minority. A growing minority, but still a minority.

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That's an interesting point actually. I mean, whilst I only very recently finished Endwalker it did (for me at least) present a few big "WOW!" moments - the Ragnarok launch for example, the surprise reveal of Zenos coming to our 'rescue'. And I have to confess, the cutscenes leading into the fight with Zenos, with 'Footfalls' playing in the background... I didn't know whether to laugh or cry - the whole thing was a joy to behold.

By the same token, so far as ShB is concerned, the entire sequence with Hades is something I've revisited a few times. I can say with certainty, having seen some reaction videos on Youtube, that I wasn't the only one almost in tears from the part where Ardbert offers the ailing WoL his axe, leading up to Emet-Selch's "Remember that we lived".
And, obviously, HW gave us the clearly much-beloved (and justifiably so) 'Final Steps of Faith'
Heck, even ARR gave us the wrongly accused Scion's dropping out one-by-one to allow the (barely then known as the) Warrior of Light the opportunity to escape.

But SB? I don't really recall any standout moments. I guess the liberation of Ala Mihgo was pretty good but I don't recall anything that gave me that "wow" factor that draws me to revisit cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

That's an interesting point actually. I mean, whilst I only very recently finished Endwalker it did (for me at least) present a few big "WOW!" moments - the Ragnarok launch for example, the surprise reveal of Zenos coming to our 'rescue'. And I have to confess, the cutscenes leading into the fight with Zenos, with 'Footfalls' playing in the background... I didn't know whether to laugh or cry - the whole thing was a joy to behold.

By the same token, so far as ShB is concerned, the entire sequence with Hades is something I've revisited a few times. I can say with certainty, having seen some reaction videos on Youtube, that I wasn't the only one almost in tears from the part where Ardbert offers the ailing WoL his axe, leading up to Emet-Selch's "Remember that we lived".
And, obviously, HW gave us the clearly much-beloved (and justifiably so) 'Final Steps of Faith'
Heck, even ARR gave us the wrongly accused Scion's dropping out one-by-one to allow the (barely then known as the) Warrior of Light the opportunity to escape.

But SB? I don't really recall any standout moments. I guess the liberation of Ala Mihgo was pretty good but I don't recall anything that gave me that "wow" factor that draws me to revisit cutscenes.

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Yeah, most of the "memorable" stuff from SB seems to only be things which are meme-worthy, such as Scholars catching Susanoo's huge sword with their books, Lakshmi's "bosom", and Gosetsu having a whole death monologue and conversation while he struggles to hold up a collapsing building. Even when I was going through every dungeon in the game while leveling all my classes to 80, I could recount exactly why the WOL had to fight in places like the Aery, the AC Research Center, Holminster Switch, Qitana Ravel and Mt. Gulg...but I was scratching my head trying to remember what the purpose of fighting in the Sirensong Sea or Castrum Abania was.

To its credit, I don't think Endwalker is going to have that problem. For all the faults I have with its story, every dungeon was pretty memorable. The Tower of Zot is probably the least of them, but I don't think it'll be possible to forget why you're there.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

While we potentially can create a new timeline if we stay there long enough to avert any chance of a Sundering – not just the scenario we ultimately saw but any deliberate or accidental process that could cause it – anything short of achieving that would likely end up being part of the known timeline one way or another because we have basically no idea of what we are trying to avert.

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I was talking about a worst case scenario. The premise that I was responding to was the assumption that the WOL could change the timeline enough to undo their own existence or that of the world they knew. If that's the case, then whether or not they were aware of what changes to make or how is irrelevant, because we're starting the thought exercise at the point where they'd already done it.

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And if we succeeded, we would have no way back to the original world that we are trying to save by acquiring information about how the original Final Days started.

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Yes we would. The portal in the Ocular connects back to the world the WOL left, regardless of whether or not the future changes. We wouldn't, say, wind up in the new Elpis's future. I think one character raises that as a possibility, but they were theorizing, since time travel was an unfamiliar concept.

And, even if we did, the WOL sure didn't care. Despite being warned not the change the past by Elidibus, the WOL made every effort to do just that. They clearly didn't give a single crap about whether they would have a home to get back to.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Yeah, most of the "memorable" stuff from SB seems to only be things which are meme-worthy, such as Scholars catching Susanoo's huge sword with their books, Lakshmi's "bosom", and Gosetsu having a whole death monologue and conversation while he struggles to hold up a collapsing building. Even when I was going through every dungeon in the game while leveling all my classes to 80, I could recount exactly why the WOL had to fight in places like the Aery, the AC Research Center, Holminster Switch, Qitana Ravel and Mt. Gulg...but I was scratching my head trying to remember what the purpose of fighting in the Sirensong Sea or Castrum Abania was.

To its credit, I don't think Endwalker is going to have that problem. For all the faults I have with its story, every dungeon was pretty memorable. The Tower of Zot is probably the least of them, but I don't think it'll be possible to forget why you're there.

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Personally i found the doma flooding memorable, the steppes battle when the imperials come and both sides of the steppes work together to fend them off, Yotsuyu in the leading patches and her story and especially her trial. I’d take all of that over the latter points of EW, although yeah they definitely stepped the game up when it comes to dungeons. The only one i really don’t care too much for is zot, which is a shame because i’ve always looked forward to the magus sisters in game. Speaking of which, why did they hype them up so much? Yoshi P and the website stated that this would be the most intense form they’ve ever taken yet but….it’s literally their ff4 iterations.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yotsuyu in the leading patches and her story and especially her trial.

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Yeah, I deliberately didn't include any post-SB content, because people almost generally acknowledge it (at least Yotsuyu's story) as good.

Ghimlyt Dark is still pretty "meh" to me, though. Having had to run it so much for leveling characters past 70, it's basically just another generic battlefield against Garlemald like we've fought in dozens times. Hell, the main SB questline had three Garlemald dungeons.

Pretty fitting/hilarious in hindsight, since SB would be the finale of the Empire as an antagonist.

I thought Matsuno did a better job in Bozja at handling a storyline involving war and occupation than whatever the Ala Mhigan portion of Stormblood was meant to be. Whoever handled Garlemald in Endwalker also did an excellent job.

At the end of the day, I'm not particularly interested in seeing something as complicated as war and occupation be reduced to 'GUD GUYZ vs BAD GUYZ' since it's rare that people wake up one day and just decide to go and invade their neighbours. There's usually a spark - often multiple sparks - that cause such a thing to happen. Sometimes those factors are internal, other times they're external and then there's the possibility for a combination of both.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I thought Matsuno did a better job in Bozja at handling a storyline involving war and occupation than whatever the Ala Mhigan portion of Stormblood was meant to be. Whoever handled Garlemald in Endwalker also did an excellent job.

At the end of the day, I'm not particularly interested in seeing something as complicated as war and occupation be reduced to 'GUD GUYZ vs BAD GUYZ' since it's rare that people wake up one day and just decide to go and invade their neighbours. There's usually a spark - often multiple sparks - that cause such a thing to happen. Sometimes those factors are internal, other times they're external and then there's the possibility for a combination of both.

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Honestly, that's largely what Bozja ended up feeling like to me with how borderline comically evil most of the IVth legion was, which is made worse by the fact that they don't even have indoctrination as an excuse due to not being Garlean.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Honestly, that's largely what Bozja ended up feeling like to me with how borderline comically evil most of the IVth legion was.

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I think the problem was, they didn’t give us as much insight on Gabranth. The evil stuff going on seemed more like sub branches of the legion and outside groups coming in and doing crazy shiet. But let’s be honest here, they did a fairly good job at depicting there really are no good guys or bad guys in war. Not when we repeatedly hunt down a combat medic, something that is actually extremely frowned upon, to the point she’s begging us to stop and her people are being slaughtered left and right.

I found Bozja interesting due to the presence of Misija, as well as Lyon. I didn't end up finishing the story in its entirety due to Zadnor's lackluster armor rewards for both genders, but it would be great to see characters like those two in the future. Garlemald was also a very well-written zone and was one of the better parts of my experience in Endwalker, I only hope that Alphinaud won't turn it into another republic.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I found Bozja interesting due to the presence of Misija, as well as Lyon. I didn't end up finishing the story in its entirety due to Zadnor's lackluster armor rewards for both genders, but it would be great to see characters like those two in the future. Garlemald was also a very well-written zone and was one of the better parts of my experience in Endwalker, I only hope that Alphinaud won't turn it into another republic.

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Sadly i have a feeling the future “battle of morals” yoshi p referenced is going to be some remaining Garleans like Nerva not wanting to give in to the eorzeans and wanting to keep their government the way it is and we cut them down in favor of Alphinaud’s Republic. Because yknow, just like the ascians the garleans always have to be the enemy.

I'm mostly hoping it doesn't just end up being "good Garleans + the Eorzean alliance vs. bad Garleans" and that perhaps the people of provinces end up stirring up their own issues that need to be dealt with.

With Garlean influence weakened, other powers might intend to move in to fill the voids left behind and the provinces regaining their independence may not be an entirely good thing.

Clearly "Bad Garleans" will still need to be a thing because there's still going to be various Castrums scattered throughout the maps.

They'll probably be like FFXIV's equivalent of the Imperial Remnant/First Order.