Main Scenario Restriction Bloodstorm - Very Very Bad idea.

Final Fantasy games have always been based around the main stories with stuff to do on the sides, there should be no difference with this one, i know many people are coming from other MMO's where they can access expansion stuff as soon as release no matter what they have done, why should this be the same? As for people complaining about doing it on ALT's , i have had a total of 5 characters whom have ALL done the story quests and all side stuff, YES it does get boring, but , i was a fool for having 5 characters in the first place, though each time i did the story i enjoyed it, maybe that is because i have been a Final fantasy fan since FF4, or maybe it's because i hate being handed stuff on a silver platter and i like to earn.

Again i was a fool to have 5 characters, i now stick with one character and don't see the point in ALT's (except 1 for maybe extra chests in Savage, or maybe for playing with friends on a different server) Others you should only have to do MSQ once, and for the people who come to the game for Stormblood as new players, i believe they should do the MSQ like everyone else, it's part of the franchise.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, it fact, it is hurting the game. If you give options to skip a whole bunch of content, the Dev-Team won't make the same efforts to design them with lore and stories. And you'll have more and more complains about the lack of content. When a game is young, having little content is understandable. But, if a new player comes on the 4th expansion, and burn anything relevant in a month, of course he'll be pissed by having nothing else to do than dumb grinding. We've said before that the MSQ is relevant on itself, that first time run in dungeons are relevant. Adding a skip potion is an official way of saying "No, it is not relevant anymore".

In fact, it's like adding powerful items in the cash-shop. It would only be an option for some people, after all, and wouldn't change what you like in the game. But you bet it would destroy the community and the game.

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That'd be on the player who decided to skip the story's fault, and not only that, the dev team already said it was a whole game's worth of content in the expansion so they're will be plenty of content so they'll get their money's worth. Also as I said before,

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Some players may just go back to experience them after they had plenty of fun with the expansion.

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If they feel that the content is low, then all they have to do is make an alt on the same server and experience the earlier content while they wait for new content. So yeah, its not hurting the game.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

I said earlier: "I couldn't care less, if they actually add a jump potion. Myself only wants it for alternate characters anyway."

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You're non the only person in this thread, and I also said earlier that they could make some access accountwide. So, if you're only in for alts, what are you arguing on ?

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

So I was just asking out of curiosity, 'cause your arguments can be used to demand making everything with story mandatory for accesing future content.

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If a story as consequences on the future, then yes, it should, being part of the MSQ or not. Like 2.0 Hard mode primals...

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

"FF is about the story. Someone not caring for the story shouldn't play FF. Someone not caring for story is likely not even picking up that game."

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When did I say that ?

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

on the other hand you say "They need to make some story mandatory, else nobody would do it."...

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Because you already have some idiots pressuring people into skipping every cutscene. If everyhting is skippable, you'll have a majority of people not doing old content and being bored because the game has too little things to justify its subbed. And yes, a change in the mentality can affect the game as a whole, and thus, me.
Like the fact that the whole "it's too hard" only resulted in boring and easier dungeons since several patches.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

It doesn't make sense to be able to clear up to T12, then be able to wait years of in-game time and events passing by (Ishgard joins the alliance, Ala Migho get's freed) and then thinking about finally taking Bahamut down.

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You're right, it doesn't. I still fail to see why "One thing does not makes sense" is a justification for "Let every story make no sense"..."This is already bad, we might as well make it worse"

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Well, and still they used that "Sleeping Potion" and that even without the littlest need to do that. Wow, seems like they aren't the best story tellers anyway.

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And everybody was pissed with that lame plot twist. See my point above...

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Ok, so there are at least reason backed in the real world, which can lead to story skips being needed, which you would accept.
Nothing else was Yoshi-P saying when he said: "With growing content, we have to think about how many of those former contents should be mandatory." ---- and all the world goes crazy.

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The point is not what Yoshi-P was saying, but what the OP was asking. i.e new players must have options to do the same content as ours and start the game at level 60.
And I said, several times, than gating jobs behind MSQ was a bad move in HW, and shouldn't be repeated in SB. However, gating access to a zone like Azys Lla is justified.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

They're almost only there for story/lore reasons... 7k xp and a normal quality gauntlet or 5 allagan tin pieces are no real incentive to do a sidequest, are they?

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Of course it is. I did a lot of beastmen quests for my Anima, for obtaining materias, or just when I was bored of doing the same dungeon over and over while leveling alt jobs.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Still people do them enough, aren't they? Most people even seem to do (unsynched) coil, although it's not relevant anymore, beside it's own story and a small dialogue change...

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Actually, Coil was empty before adding the slight link to the MSQ and Wondrous Tails. And you get a lot of second chance points thanks to 1st timers, even people who didn't even bother to do Turn 1 before.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

1. Most people play this game for it's story and most of them loves to do content just for the sake of story. If there is story included, most people would even do optional contents. Even if it's not relevant regarding progression anymore, they tend to do those contents at some point, just to see the story. (e.g. Coils)
2. With the possibility to skip many players will draw on that and only a few people will still do optional story content, which includes the MSQ then and every other content beside weekly tome farm.

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Actually, it does work out. People do Coil now because it's related to the story, story you have to do to gain access to relevant content like EX dungeon. So, for the same to be applied to SB, you'd have to create a 4.x MSQ link to every past trial/dungeon/raid. Good luck writing a story like that without having people facepalming and complaining at all the shoehorning you'd have to do the even make sense...and the fact that'd they'd have to run a dungeon that actually offers nothing relevant at their level.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

It's like you have people who pay you so they don't have to see a prequel to your movie.... would you make your sequel intentionally worse because of those people?

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Well, if they frankly tell me that they don't care about respecting lore, timeline and causality, you bet I wouldn't bother to include them in my movie.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

the dev team already said it was a whole game's worth of content in the expansion so they're will be plenty of content so they'll get their money's worth.

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HW was also a whole game of content, yet the dev team intended people to clear everything by the time Alex Savage was released, i.e. 4 weeks. After that, the only to do is to grind. If you try to sell me a 4-year old MMO (1.x not counted) where my character progression is only 4 week long before I'm required to repeat things over and over, you're sure I'm gonna find another MMO.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If everyhting is skippable, you'll have a majority of people not doing old content and being bored because the game has too little things to justify its subbed

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So you're in the camp who go along with the view that it's fine for MMO devs' to create content people simply don't want to do and then force people do it in order to access content they [the players] do want?

Me, I believe if people aren't WILLINGLY running content that content has no reason to exist once it's no longer 'current .. like much of the ARR MSQ, the endless repetition of 'kill this primal', 'kill that primal', 'go kill the first one again a bit harder', yada-yada-yada, the 'hard modes' of the first three had no reason to gate the MSQ, it was simply SE forcing people to play meaningless content as a gate to later stuff.

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

So you're in the camp who go along with the view that it's fine for MMO devs' to create content people simply don't want to do and then force people do it in order to access content they [the players] do want?

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No, I'm in the camp of "Stop asking for new players to rush content", because again, complainers are not new players...and in the camp of "What's the point of starting a game at max level ?"

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

Me, I believe if people aren't WILLINGLY running content that content has no reason to exist once it's no longer 'current

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But you think what's current for you must be current for others, and so, what's outdated for you must be outdated for others...sorry, no, for a lvl 15 player, Sastaha is not outdated content.

This should be the last one, there doesn't seem to come anythin new anyway...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You're right, it doesn't. I still fail to see why "One thing does not makes sense" is a justification for "Let every story make no sense"..."This is already bad, we might as well make it worse"

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Because it doesn't make it bad. Coil being optional, but still done by a lot of people later on, because of story reasons is not bad in terms it affects the player base or the game itself in a bad way.

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And everybody was pissed with that lame plot twist. See my point above...

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Everyone actually caring for a good story, did complain. People who did not, didn't complain. Someone who cares less, isn't that disappointed when there is a plot hole that isn't covered that good, because he missed the real deep explanation in 2.0 story.
And everone else, isn't affected... to get a lame plot twist isn't tied to MSQ being optional or mandatory.

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The point is not what Yoshi-P was saying, but what the OP was asking. i.e new players must have options to do the same content as ours and start the game at level 60.
And I said, several times, than gating jobs behind MSQ was a bad move in HW, and shouldn't be repeated in SB. However, gating access to a zone like Azys Lla is justified.

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I'm not the OP. I suggest a jump to the end of ARR (lvl 50) and not to the end of HW (lvl 60) or SB (lvl 70).

If you start at Level 50 in HW you don't have access to Azys Lla. It's still gated behind all of HW MSQ. SB end game content will still be gated by SB MSQ. And ARR contents will still be gated by ARR MSQ.
You still have to level to lvl 52 and do the MSQ before you can even touch your first dungeon, Dusk Vigil. That is without "Proving grounds" like things.

Why do you think they made the aether currents easier and therefore some of the mandatory side-quests optional and also the MSQ more streamlined? You don't have to do that much seemingly unnecessary filler quests in HW MSQ.
Because many people, although not having anything against doing sidequests in general, complained that they are forced to do that much of those things in a row without being able to do anything different and fun. They still need it for moogle beast tribe quests, so eventually they will do if they want these.
And someone wanting to learn about beast tribe lore of the old beast tribes, will eventually do the ARR MSQ.

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Of course it is. I did a lot of beastmen quests for my Anima, for obtaining materias, or just when I was bored of doing the same dungeon over and over while leveling alt jobs.

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I did not speak of daily gated, way more xp-giving, also way more useful stuff like materia giving, and also in the relic quest included quests, like beast tribes.

I spoke of the 500+ (it's near seven hundred) side quests, which can only be done a single time and give you less than 1/10 of the max. XP of the level they are intended for, 5 allagan pieces of crap and a bit of lore.

Those quests....

Again.. you totally missed the point and only created a strawman ("Hey, look at the beast tribes!").
500+ sidequests have almost no incentive except the story or your own will to rather do them instead of a far more rewarding dungeon run. Killing 3-4 mobs of the hunting log at level 18 already give you 150% of a whole lvl 18 quest and the hunting log is enough to be able to progress (there are only 1-2 parts where you have to do also side quests them, if you skip the optional dungeons and don't want to fate).
90% of the time you can just do MSQ and never bother with any side quest.

They could treat them as a big waste of ressources (since nobody needs to do them); but still SE creates more and at the same time (in my opinion) even better ones (liked most of HW side quests more than the ARR ones). Same could be true for an optional MSQ.

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Actually, Coil was empty before adding the slight link to the MSQ and Wondrous Tails. And you get a lot of second chance points thanks to 1st timers, even people who didn't even bother to do Turn 1 before.

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Actually I did the most coil kill groups for people who haven't done it yet (after 3.x got released), when anima was introduced (i.e. the grindy step)... about 4000 poetics (40 runs) at least, idk maybe even more?! Coil was never absolutly "empty" on Phoenix, it was only done less when there was actually new current content (like all Heavensward at that point).

And the thing which changed the availability of coils in 3.x times the most wasn't WT or the story bit...
It's the "unsynch" option, which isn't that far away from a "skip" option, anyway... it enables you to skip most of the work former groups had to put into this. Still it leads to more people actually enjoying the game and coils/Aliseas story.

And also: You're again giving me an argument; you're saying that you can easily incentive people to do content which never was or isn't anymore mandatory.
So, therefore there is no problem.

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Actually, it does work out. People do Coil now because it's related to the story, story you have to do to gain access to relevant content like EX dungeon. So, for the same to be applied to SB, you'd have to create a 4.x MSQ link to every past trial/dungeon/raid. Good luck writing a story like that without having people facepalming and complaining at all the shoehorning you'd have to do the even make sense...and the fact that'd they'd have to run a dungeon that actually offers nothing relevant at their level.

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They do Coil because it's relevant in the story which unlocks HW ex dungeons.
They'll do MSQ because it's relevant in the story which unlocks SB ex dungeons.

As I said.. story-wise you don't have to cater to much to a player actually skipping the story. Complaints about the story from someone skipping the story will be very, very rare.

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Well, if they frankly tell me that they don't care about respecting lore, timeline and causality, you bet I wouldn't bother to include them in my movie.

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They don't tell you. They just do it. And if they only watched you movie because of the action/visuals or because their boy-/girlfriend demanded from them to go to the cinema with them... but then realizes that he also likes your stories or characters... they will also watch the first movie, only later.
But you still have to live with the fact that there is a part of your customers, which might only care about the visuals or the action parts of your movie.

Does that give you incentive to make future story worse, like you claimed SE would do?

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

So you're in the camp who go along with the view that it's fine for MMO devs' to create content people simply don't want to do and then force people do it in order to access content they [the players] do want?.

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You know "forcing" people into things is kinda part of a lot of games? If you wanted to go to a certain place in Witcher 3 you had to do the story. Sometimes in games with more than one playable character I am also "forced" to play as the other characters even though I might not like them. They may be single-player games but just because this is a MMO does not mean imo that its completely different in that aspect. And just because other MMOs might not do this does not mean that SE has to follow them. At least here other then having to travel from place to place you can just skip the cutscene if you dont want to watch them.

So are you saying that just because for a lot of people content is no longer relevant they should just delete it? You say it has no reason to longer exist..you know that they put a lot of time and money into making these? So why exactly should SE ever create a dungeon again? I mean it will sooner or later not be relevant anymore and most of the people only run them anyway to get the new stones or minions and other items..Take those incentives away and look how many people will run the dungeon again after the first time.

And I can understand that SE wants old content to be used again. Like I said they put a lot of resources in it..they just need to find a good middle way to not have us do it too much.

They could go around and try to see if some of the MSQ quests could be put into sidequests so the mainstory of ARR is a little smaller...but letting people completely skip it or even taking big parts of it out of the MSQ is imo wrong. And getting a potion to be immediately at lvl60 is probably imo the worst thing they could do..

Pintsized you said in your other post that you dont like endgame and you seem to dislike doing old content. I am just curious, what are you exactly doing in the game? This is not meant as mean I am genuine interested what you do? Crafting, gathering? Role playing? All of those are ways to play the game and its totally fine to enjoy them (I like to collect minions and glamour for example or gather and craft) but even those things have gates themselves. If you want to craft a high level item you need a certain equipment which is often gated behind a big gil wall or scripts..If you dont level up your gatherers next to your crafter you either need good friends that gather those things for you, Gil or you need to gather even if you might not want to. And sometimes you have to level your other crafting classes too for better cross class skills or for getting items there..So even if you just simply want to craft this one nice furniture you have to overcome one of the gates, be it Gil or having a crafter that is good enough to make this..so this is kinda a gate too!

If nothing was gated behind some things than this game would be boring quite fast. You could achieve everything in a short amount of time and after that you stand there not knowing what to do. And the question is, does the reward feels truly like a reward if there was nothing to overcome. I do agree that sometimes gates are too much (like having one hair drop as RNG in PotD) but having none at all so no people will ever feel like they have to do something they dont like will IMO not be good for the game too. Because in a long time game like a MMO you need long time goals to achieve. And this can only happen if you gate it behind things, be it level, gil, quests and so on. And in the end there will always be people that dislike something so they can never truly please everyone

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Originally Posted by Istaru

I'm starting to wonder if there is any point to discussing this anymore.

One side wants the MSQ requirements for things to die in a fire and anything less is completely unacceptable to them.

The other side wants it to stay but is at least willing to compromise in certain places.

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I think both sides have shown willingness to give and take, but at the edges some people want everything gated and others want the MSQ to be completely optional. I also think there's a lot of misunderstanding and opacity in the conversation at this point, so it's not really going anywhere.

so why do i have to kill all mobs in doom to advance in to the next area? :P why is bethesda forcing me to kill all mobs :P

why do i have to do a puzzle in darksiders to access next area XD

u see the argument could be expanden to every game so basicly every game is bad coz u cant do what u want :P

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

I used to be too dependent on people when I first started, mostly because I wanted to have someone run through shit with me. And there were a few who were always happy to, some willingly put time in to help or join in for company. But eventually did I realize that was putting a burden on others. They wouldn't object to any request out of kindness, but it was clear they had things they were doing and wanted to do themselves. So I don't ever want anyone I know to ever feel obligated to put aside their time. If they are all for it, all the better, but otherwise to each their own until interests coincide.

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I totally understand that, from both sides of the issue. But, consider this, those people still helped you and helped you progress until you realized that the training wheels could come off - in terms of figuring out you don't really need them to be there, and that they took time of their own and spent it helping you. So, now you have come through that, completed the story and are playing at 60, you play with many of those same people? It was an investment of their time to bring another person along into their group.

Pay it forward and help someone the way you were helped. You might find that it doesn't really feel like a burden, and it feels good when that new player breaks free and becomes a part of the team in their own right.

This applies to everyone, not specifically you, though I am replying to you. Of course not everyone feels the same way, I just wish more people did.