Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

Rerolled paladin, loving it!

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Well, I'll delete that... until proven otherwise, I am also not ready yet, I don't think. I'm still learning.

8 GCDs for Wrath Stacks? no no no. That's just one of the Wrath stacks take 8 every 60 seconds.

Let's go back to the actual maths.

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Looks legit.

That's why I like Crit Rate and a bit of extra STR for Warrior. On bosses where you aren't waiting for a single large hit you're better off to just spam Inner Beast whenever it's up ~20 seconds and a double Inner Beast ~60 seconds. (Using Vengeance and Berserk for the extra Wrath)

Thanks. A lot has changed since I made that post, and I'll leave it up for history.

I've gone from not holding Wrath V, to stacking Crit and taking advantage of that buff.

The first thing people notice when I tank with them is how much I am granted a Critical hit.

Another thing I've noticed is that my single target rotation and macros don't translate into dungeons nearly as well =/

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Thanks. A lot has changed since I made that post, and I'll leave it up for history.

I've gone from not holding Wrath V, to stacking Crit and taking advantage of that buff.

The first thing people notice when I tank with them is how much I am granted a Critical hit.

Another thing I've noticed is that my single target rotation and macros don't translate into dungeons nearly as well =/

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Yes, it's rediculous how much you get a crit on Warrior. I don't know if Second Wind has a high crit rate normally as a Pug skill, but during my testing without any buffs it was ~40% Crit Rate on Warrior (small sample ~50 uses)

- If you're up for it, I would recommend stacking everything into Crit and STR for testing. I don't think Warrior actually needs much more HP than an equally geared Paladin. It should net an extra 80 STR or so compared to a VIT build Warrior. (Darklight Pieces)

I toyed with that idea and then went scrambling to get my ViT back. I was about 6060 with Defiance. I hit harder but not much harder than with my Vit, plus I was playing with fire. Titan was impossible and I even struggled with Garuda When she was DET-buffed. I'm far more comfy with my current set up. I still hit hard, but I also hit 7700 HP with Thrill of Battle.

So yes, WAR does need more HP than a PLD. But he doesn't need a full allocation of Vit. In fact, if a WAR stack VIT you lose some of the damage you would have mitigated with self heals and parry % so that it ends up being a wash anyway and you're less effect at DPS.

That's why I recommend a balanced approach even on the STR side of the equation. Right now, my parry % is a steady 24%, I can self heal well, I Crit a lot, and I have enough HP to survive what's been thrown at me so far. (Up to and including Caduceus.)

You can see my current stats and set up that I prefer on the Lodestone now. :)

See this is why no one is taking you seriously Hiir. Everyone knows warriors do just fine till turn 5. I have tanked all of 1-4 with my warrior with no problem. Explain to me how you are going to survive an 8000+ damage death sentence on a regular basis like a paladin can. No one cares what you can do on Caduceus.

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Originally Posted by Zanther

Warriors need more "oh shit" buttons and better ways to reduce the amount of mana they suck up. Simple as that

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seems like u want wars to be plds... I think we should get Treaure Hunter so every1 would be forced to take us to every fight :) .

Being serious, I think a longer Berserk with a better recast time and a more potent Brutal Swings could make us stronger. Better autohealing and the ability to prevent huge TP moves would surely justify taking us to big fights.

WAR is a tank so make it as PLD lol
make WAR as dark knight then we will all love you SE.

Many people have suggested the idea of scaling from the monster's damage, like Paladins, but I, for some reason, really don't think they will go that route. The first thing they should do is keep the healing bonus as a static buff from Defiance and then simply make it go up with Wrath. From there, I would look at options to solve Overhealing, HP%-Shields procced from overhealing every x seconds as a passive. I just don't think we will see direct -% damage reduction abilities from the Warrior, so we need to go more crazy with the HP% and Healing% bonus and other ideas.

hey it looks like i was on the right track :) they givin' a more reliable Stun for starters in december and what else?

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Originally Posted by Bladeryk

Here's a thought, something that has been bothering me for awhile now.

This thing...

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps1943150e.jpg

Why not make it an off hand item, that not only increases parry chance, but amount and since it's basically a spiked buckler add a little reflective damage from incoming melee attacks?

yes? no? drink more coffee before i post?

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The buckler!!!
Thats a good idea!

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Originally Posted by Maqaqa

The buckler!!!

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It's not a buckler. It's a gauntlet. Also, PLDs already get bucklers as part of their shield options.

I really don't see a point with providing an offhand item. Why not just give the axes *themselves* some effective equivalence to Shields or provide WAR with a straight up ~25% multiplier to the contributions of Parry Rating and STR's contributions to parry? Unless it's outright impossible because of back end limitations, it would amount to the same exact thing without screwing up the existing equipment paradigm.

imho this could be a major fix IF damage dealt resulted in healing. Quite honestly you would figure that at the very least defiance wouldn't have penalty but would add to strength and parry thus making us a bit more survivable.

To summarize the problem with Warriors is:

1. 25% Max HP +15% Healing > 20% Reduction. On case basis 5000 HP > 6250 HP with 15% Healing vs 5250 HP with 15% Reduction. However healing the paladin will have 5% more effective per cast/mp. On top of that this is considered when a warrior does not consume his Infuriate or gets it back up whenever he uses it.

2. Inner Beast, the biggest devil of them all. Almost in every situation it will cause either the warrior or the healer to overheal. Is not affected by wrath healing multiplier.

3. Enmity/Dmg. Whilst warrior have Maim and 10% Slashing debuff which causes other skill to provide stronger emnity. Paladin have Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within which are off GCD to make up for the damage and more TP effective.

4. Further mitigation rat race. Rage of Halone 10% STR debuff well does not mean 10% damage reduction but still puts the paladin ahead, and to top it off with 1 more mitigation mechanic which is Block. And if you think that is the end of the road, add in Blind effect which is more constant than Featherfoot which is accessible by warriors.

5. The rat race continues... Inner Beast can often heal you 12% Max HP to 30% if it crit with buffs lined up. A Paladin with cross class Stoneskin can cast a 10% damage shield any time he wants.

6. Cooldown is where Paladin blow warriors out of the water. Foresight 20% Defense increase =/= 20% damage reduction of Rampart, not in physical department even more so in Magic damage department. 40% Damage reduction vs 20% Max HP heal = 2000 EHP vs 1250 EHP assuming parry cancels each other out there is still Block on the table. And finally we have Blood Surge vs... wait what? You can cross that shit and still have Hallowed Ground as Paladin.

How to remedy the disparity? Allow Rampart to be cross-skilled if you are reluctant to buff Foresight but still its only 10% for the Warrior (Due to trait). Still need to buff like at least 35% Magic Defense and Defense to maybe make Foresight to hold a candle against Rampart.

Like many people stated bake 15% Healing received into Defiance and bump it up to 20% minimum though many suggested 25%. Inner Beast should be a shield to prevent overhealing. Second wind should be based off Max HP instead of attack power. Berserk should not penalize the warrior that hard in terms of Wrath generation, put a -50% damage for 5 seconds after berserk so warriors can still generate Wrath.

If Halone can have -10% STR and Enmity increase at least Storm Eye/Butcher's block can have it. Bake Enmity increase into Storm Eye and Storm's Path life steal into Butcher's Block.

Remove redundant shit like Unchained (From wrath requirement), if Paladin's have Hallowed Ground with no conditions Warriors should get Unchained with no conditions. Vengeance will always still be a useless skill nothing but a AoE pull extra damage and free off GCD wrath generator in Boss fights. Take off the strings attached on Steel Cyclone put it on a 25s CD like Circle of Scorn and off GCD generates wrath but no longer ignore Defiance damage reduction.

Done your warrior is fixed. Oh and throw in a silent effect on Holmgang too while you're at it and put Brutal Swing on GCD and 100 TP but still doing 50 potency.

I don't understand why Pld was given so many defensive cooldowns and War was given almost none. Running instances on Pld I always have several cooldowns ready if I really need it. Warrior I get to take full damage or burn cooldowns and hope nothing does wrong in the near future.

I also don't get this "Look cool doing it" thing. Yeah warrior would look cool if it required a lot more skill to be able to do the same thing. I would be happy for that. Problem is that is not the case. Pld can derp their way through things that rip War a new one.

It won't happen, but I'd love if Defiance as a click to turn on:

1. +20% HP
2. +20% ALL damage dealt to healing
3. +20% healing

My numbers are clearly just bullshit, but I'd love for Paladin to remain a mitigation tank and Warrior a self healing one.

Leave the crit on the Wrath stacks and possibly make Foresight not so shit...

Thread's tl;dr.

Anyone ever suggested overheals? Like, let war's self heal attacks go over his own maximum HP? 7k HP warrior at max hp does inner beast and heals for say...1500. He now has 7k hp and a 1500 hp barrier.

Then put wrath's +healing to defiance. Turn wrath stacks into +healing done to self. So other people healing would always have +15% and a war healing himself with attacks would be healing +30%. If that's too strong, put a limit on the hp over heal barrier (30% of max hp?).

I think that IB should still give room for some skill in play, so WARs don't just IB whenever they feel like it and they are rewarded in whatever situation they are used. I agree on generating a shield, but probably with a fraction of the heal you recievd from IB, so you still have to TRY and use it when it's more appropiate and not just used whenever it's up, since the ability is suppoused to be REACTIVE.

Well, if the warrior uses IB reactively, he would heal himself but not gain the health shield and the healer healing him right after, would not over heal him and he's stuck at normal maximum hp. So instead of reacting to incoming damage from the enemy, he would be reacting to getting topped up by the healer. I guess the warrior can use it in a preventive way when he's not taking massive damage but I imagine that, that would be pretty rare unless he's over geared for a farmed dungeon.

It's just a suggestion though.

I get the feeling IB is going to be changed in either of 2 ways:

1. It's taken off of the Wrath stack completely and given a cooldown of somewhere between 30-60 seconds.

2. It remains part of the Wrath stack but can be used at any point. Potency scales with stack size.

If they don't boost Foresight, then we should have Rampart added to cross class.

Holmgang should be given some sort of damage reduction. If I'm going to be locked in place for 5 seconds, at least let me take 15-20% less damage.

Bloodbath should be given an additional WAR only trait of increasing healing by 75%. If we're not going to be given damage reduction at flat values, give us some useful padding to our self sustainability on that 90 second CD.