SE Please implement a Chonoscroll/PLEX system in FFXIV: ARR

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Nope, I really hope they do so that people who create threads suggesting they add something just to have an argument rather than caring a single bit about whether it's added or not can whine and cry when they do add it because they don't do it the way you wanted them to, which was actually not at all. My argument is perfectly valid, you just choose to ignore it because you don't like it.

That you think this will in any way change or get rid of RMT shows how little you understand why and how they make money. RMT don't care whether making money is easy or not, and they will continue to exist whether or not this system is added.

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Your problem is that I don't "Think". I've seen it happen.

This isn't a new idea.

To prevent gil buying by becoming a gil seller seems to me to be completely ass-backwards logic.

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Originally Posted by AhmeraMae

I think every stone that this topic has to offer was turned and discussed thoroughly.

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Yes, I see no attempted solutions here. (How do YOU propose RMT be combated? Still waiting on an answer to this btw. Please continue to ignore it)I'm not gonna call people idiots and jerks for not agreeing with me.

I'm gonna just lurk. Every other post is to tell someone they don't understand the system. You can only scream "ignorance" so many times.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

To prevent gil buying by becoming a gil seller seems to me to be completely ass-backwards logic.

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Gil buying isn't the problem. I already explained the problem by your request. Here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post875421

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Your problem is that I don't "Think". I've seen it happen.

This isn't a new idea.

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You're right, you don't think. If you even half believe there is a single game out there without a large RMT population you are sadly mistaken. The only thing that gets rid of RMT is when people stop playing the game and there's no one left to buy their products.

This isn't a new idea, and it's not going to change anything. It won't even make it harder for RMT to make money because RMT don't actually put any work into the game in the first place. Unlike you, they simply start a bot program and let it run until they've made enough of what they want to sell to make a profit. That you think you have the solution to change that and know more about combating RMT than SE does (or at least enough so you think they should change their billing system to support what you want them to do) is arrogant, ridiculous, and just plain wrong.

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Originally Posted by A_Hortensia

Nuru: What you posted was accurate except for the fact that SE is going to make money. It just won't be your money. It'll be someone else's money. Someone else will buy the subscription, and sell that subscription to you for gil. Technically, SE is going to be making the same amount of money regardless, except the person who spent the USD is getting extra in-game gil out of the whole deal. Kind of/sort of makes you and and guy you bought the item from RMT in the sense that you just spent gil on USD, and they just spent USD on gil.

Hopefully that's clear.



I agree with this big time. There's no reason for them to change how they do things, when their current model made them a huge amount of success from FFXI. I'm certain they want to replicate that model and success with FFXIV.

And then my personal beliefs, which I don't want to be contested.. I'm just sharing:

FFXIV should not be free to play for anyone. Even if the money is coming from somewhere/someone else.

By playing and subscribing to the game service, you should be proud with your decision to enjoy this high caliber product, while supporting the hard-working high caliber staff and company. Your own money should speak for you, not somebody else's. Be part of the community and let everyone be equals as customers.



It seemed like you being being a jerk, and it has nothing to do with the debate.
I just wanted to call you out if you were intentionally trying to be a jerk. Not insulting you~
Please forgive me. ._.

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I forgive you. No harm done. I have no patience for fake people. They asked questions with no real intent on accepting an answer while placing fake emotes. I may be a bit curt and forward but I never insulted anyone. They don't understand even thought there have been Wall o' texts explaining. You also might have missed their previous question. "which one are you? the gil buyer? or the gil buyer supporter? It added nothing at all to the discussion except to put the poster "ON THE SPOT." Don't buy into their game.

And this is for people concerned about current RMT in FFXIV, this is how SE handled the situation previously with their previous online title:

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...13/detail.html

Just for the sharing and caring of knowledge.

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Originally Posted by A_Hortensia

And this is for people concerned about current RMT in FFXIV, this is how SE handled the situation previously with their previous online title:

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...13/detail.html

Just for the sharing and caring of knowledge.

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And it didn't work.

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Originally Posted by GodseijuroHiko

Yes, I see no attempted solutions here. (How do YOU propose RMT be combated? Still waiting on an answer to this btw. Please continue to ignore it)I'm not gonna call people idiots and jerks for not agreeing with me.

I'm gonna just lurk. Every other post is to tell someone they don't understand the system. You can only scream "ignorance" so many times.

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I'm not sure if you quoted me because you agree with my post or because I, if so, unintentionally, ignored one of your posts that was directed at me earlier today.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Gil buying isn't the problem. I already explained the problem by your request. Here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post875421

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Yes yes with the RMT destroying our economy. That wasnt the point I was trying to make with this post.

My point is that gil buying is an issue worth addressing so long as real world currency can influence it. Your argument of :

"time = money and therefore we should be able to substitute time with money" (paraphrasing)

may work for a select few other games in dealing with subs, but these factors were with the games from the start. Who is to know how pressing this on an existing economy could change the game for the better or worse? Do we have test cases with specific examples?

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Originally Posted by Abriael

And it didn't work.

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If by "work" you mean cutting down on the amount of gil available to RMT and buyers and greatly (GREATLY) decreasing the runaway inflation in a fairly short amount of time, then at least on my server, yes it did work.

If by "work" you mean "wave a magic wand and suddenly make all RMT go poof like some kind of SE/Gandalf hybrid" then no, it (and everything every MMO company has ever done ever) did not work.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

You're right, you don't think. If you even half believe there is a single game out there without a large RMT population you are sadly mistaken. The only thing that gets rid of RMT is when people stop playing the game and there's no one left to buy their products.

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Unfortunately for your misguided argument, the examples are there in front of everyone. On TERA and EVE Online RMT is a lot less widespread and they didn't manage to ignite the inflative process that they do in other games.

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This isn't a new idea, and it's not going to change anything. It won't even make it harder for RMT to make money because RMT don't actually put any work into the game in the first place. Unlike you, they simply start a bot program and let it run until they've made enough of what they want to sell to make a profit.

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Running an RMT operation requires large resources and manpower. Bots don't run by themselves completely unsupervised. In FFXIV bots work only for a small part of the operations RMT does, as the preferred method is multiboxing (that is definitely manned).

Sorry, but you should really make some research before writing.

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That you think you have the solution to change that and know more about combating RMT than SE does (or at least enough so you think they should change their billing system to support what you want them to do) is arrogant, ridiculous, and just plain wrong.

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And you think you know more about combating RMT than CCP Games and En Masse Entertainment?

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Originally Posted by AhmeraMae

I'm not sure if you quoted me because you agree with my post or because I, if so, unintentionally, ignored one of your posts that was directed at me earlier today.

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Yes it was an agreement.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

And you think you know more about combating RMT than CCP Games and En Masse Entertainment?

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No, but I think the 25 year old gaming company that has been making games before even the ideas for these two companies existed MIGHT possibly know better about what works in their games the you or anyone else does.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Unfortunately for your misguided argument, the examples are there in front of everyone. On TERA and EVE Online RMT is a lot less widespread and they didn't manage to ignite the inflative process that they do in other games.

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See where I said population affects RMT? Now check the huge population decline in Tera since it was released and try to figure out why maybe it's not as widespread as more popular, and populated, games.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Yes yes with the RMT destroying our economy. That wasnt the point I was trying to make with this post.

My point is that gil buying is an issue worth addressing so long as real world currency can influence it. Your argument of :

"time = money and therefore we should be able to substitute time with money" (paraphrasing)

may work for a select few other games in dealing with subs, but these factors were with the games from the start. Who is to know how pressing this on an existing economy could change the game for the better or worse? Do we have test cases with specific examples?

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No, they weren't there from the start. As I specified near the beginning of the thread, In TERA chronoscrolls have been added a few months after release, in EVE Online PLEX have been added a whole five years after.

SE has the possibility to check plenty material about it. When En Masse Decided to look into creating a system similar to PLEX, they simply went to CCP Games and asked for their support. CCP Games were happy to provide, and I don't see why they wouldn't do the same for SE.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

No, but I think the 25 year old gaming company that has been making games before even the ideas for these two companies existed MIGHT possibly know better about what works in their games the you or anyone else does.

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25 years making offline games doesn't help one bit in combating an online issue. All the experience SE has on this is the (mostly failed) experience in FFXI and the experience in FFXIV, that isn't even a real study case because the game was an explosive flop.

On the other hand, both CCP and En Masse have been more successful in combating RMT that Square Enix has ever been. So yes. they do know better. Results don't lie.

So yeah. SE has everything to gain from taking a page from the book of those that managed better.

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See where I said population affects RMT? Now check the huge population decline in Tera since it was released and try to figure out why maybe it's not as widespread as more popular, and populated, games.

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Actually the population of TERA is definitely healthy and stable at the moment. This without mentioning the fact that EVE online's population is very large and still growing.

Does ANYONE have an idea that could effectively combat RMT? Please share with the class. Leaving it up to SE hasn't worked well yet. Anyone who lost claim to the 24/7 campers might feel some way about it.

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Originally Posted by GodseijuroHiko

Does ANYONE have an idea that could effectively combat RMT? Please share with the class. Leaving it up to SE hasn't worked well yet. Anyone who lost claim to the 24/7 campers might feel some way about it.

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That would be off topic, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

25 years making offline games doesn't help one bit in combating an online issue. All the experience SE has on this is the (mostly failed) experience in FFXI and the experience in FFXIV, that isn't even a real study case because the game was an explosive flop.

On the other hand, both CCP and En Masse have been more successful in combating RMT that Square Enix has ever been. So yes. they do know better. Results don't lie.

So yeah. SE has everything to gain from taking a page from the book of those that managed better.

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Source?

In what way was XI a "Failure", and what evidence do you have that CCP and En Masse have been successful at all, much less more successful in combating RMT? If you have some kind of report suggesting this system is in any way effective by all means link it up.

Two points.

1: Exchanging in-game currency for real money hasn't ever been allowed in any SE ToS since they started creating MMOs. Furthermore, any reward-based event (Mog Bonanza- a sort of lottery in FFXI of coveted in-game items) has come with rules stating that the winning tickets for these items cannot be exchanged for real-life money as reward. Why do you think SE would break it's own ToS in this instance?

2: FFXIV's about to go down, bro. Don't you think it's a little late for "add this, that and this!!" suggestions to be implemented into 2.0?

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Source?
/10

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Try playing them. If you don't, you don't have much title to comment about it. Multiple people that play them already confirmed it in this very thread.

As a matter of fact, your opinion on the matter is rather inconsequential. SE can do exactly what En Masse did, and go to CCP asking for support. As they did with En Masse, they'll probably be happy to provide all the data on the issue SE needs to judge.

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Originally Posted by faris

Two points.

1: Exchanging in-game currency for real money hasn't ever been allowed in any SE ToS since they started creating MMOs. Furthermore, any reward-based event (Mog Bonanza- a sort of lottery in FFXI of coveted in-game items) has come with rules stating that the winning tickets for these items cannot be exchanged for real-life money as reward. Why do you think SE would break it's own ToS in this instance?

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TOS change all the time to suit a company's needs. All they need to do is to send you a mail inviting you to aknowledge it again. I think the Xbox Live TOS changed about five times in the last two years.

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2: FFXIV's about to go down, bro. Don't you think it's a little late for "add this, that and this!!" suggestions to be implemented into 2.0?

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There's always time to add new things, "bro". It doesn't even need to be there at launch.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Try playing them. If you don't, you don't have much title to comment about it. Multiple people that play them already confirmed it in this very thread.

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Unable to confirm source/unreliable source.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

And it didn't work.

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10 char. Are you serious? (In regards to FFXI Special Task Force)

It did work. We saw progress. Our AHs weren't inflated to hell.
We saw mass amounts of RMT disappear from Diabolos. We regained a lot of control in a lot of in-game economic areas where we desperately needed it back, like fishing and mining.

We reported, the GMs answered, they said: "We'll look into it" and within weeks, tons of accounts were banned, gil was frozen. We even had non-RMT casualties in the process, with the global bans of people who were caught duplicating items in Salvage. Some people were mad, most just remade their characters, or fought for their characters back and they were glad that SE was serious about making FFXI the absolute best experience they could, even when they didn't have to.

Linkshells notorious for botting claims got some of their accounts banned, even accounts had held the entire LS bank. Everyone who tried to break the ToS in any regards, not just chinese teenagers in internet cafe sweatshops, were dealt with. SE loves the hell out of their products, and their customers, they worked their asses off.

I was there, I experienced all of that, and I was grateful.

There is no way to reduce crime to 0%. There's no way to reduce RMT to 0%.
But holy hell did they ever put in the work. AND, they kept us updated constantly on their progress.

I don't even.. I can't even..

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Unable to confirm source/unreliable source.

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Fact is that your opinion is inconsequential. SE is able to acquire all the data they need.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Fact is that your opinion is inconsequential. SE is able to acquire all the data they need.

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I don't need opinion, RMT exist in all MMOs and I can link you to any site proving it. Fact is you're talking out of your ass and I have sources to back up my claims.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Translation of the above: "My arguments have been demolished, I don't know how to argue further. Therefore, I will insult my opposition."

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It's ironic you dislike people being rude and confrontational..yet that's all you are.

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Originally Posted by A_Hortensia

10 char. Are you serious? (In regards to FFXI Special Task Force)

It did work. We saw progress. Our AHs weren't inflated to hell.

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The massive prices on the AH I've seen just a few months ago say the opposite.

Banning accounts works very badly in combating RMT, because besides the very possible collateral damage (and in fact it happened), RMTs have access to a virtually infinite number of accounts through credential theft or credit card fraud.

What SE did in XI is simply a very extensive game of whack-a-mole.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

I don't need opinion, RMT exist in all MMOs and I can link you to any site proving it. Fact is you're talking out of your ass and I have sources to back up my claims.

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Too bad that all you can prove is nothing else than a strawman argument, as no one here argued that RMT doesn't exist in any game. Try harder :D

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

You're right, you don't think. If you even half believe there is a single game out there without a large RMT population you are sadly mistaken. The only thing that gets rid of RMT is when people stop playing the game and there's no one left to buy their products.

This isn't a new idea, and it's not going to change anything. It won't even make it harder for RMT to make money because RMT don't actually put any work into the game in the first place. Unlike you, they simply start a bot program and let it run until they've made enough of what they want to sell to make a profit. That you think you have the solution to change that and know more about combating RMT than SE does (or at least enough so you think they should change their billing system to support what you want them to do) is arrogant, ridiculous, and just plain wrong.

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RMT is a bit more complicated than that but for the purposes of argument, let's say that you can just bot botany (pun only partially intended) to gather items to sell. First, this is one of the slowest but most easily automated money-making tasks in the game. However, by increasing competition for the price of gil, you decrease the amount of money they make per time doing this bot task. If they can't make enough gil in 1 month of botting to cover the cost of subscription, internet costs, and computer costs, then this ceases to be a profitable solution.

Let's go the next step up: farming for fleece. This requires much more monthly subscription cost since each account must be separate to get the proper leves. It's probably still bottable to some extent, but might require some supervision, which adds a human labor cost. Again, lowering the amount of real money that gil sells for will lower the RMT's bottom line and make this unprofitable.

Next step up: spiritbonding in Natalan. This again requires multiple monthly subscriptions AND requires at least 1 actual person to be operating the character at all times, but has the potential to be very profitable. Who knows if RMT gil prices will fall to the extent that this stops being worthwhile over time.

And a hypothetical final step that you suggested: selling U/U item drops. This is probably completely unfeasible since it requires at least 7 people working full-time to help 1 paying customer. These 7 people also have to get well-geared so there's a high up-front cost before it becomes profitable. It's probably more trouble than it's worth, especially because that initial gear investment is completely lost if the account(s) get banned.

In each of these cases, yes, RMTs can use the PLEX system to pay for their own subscriptions but that only serves to lower their bottom line even further since it cuts into their profits by having to use the product they're selling. I know SE has been combating RMT for 10 years now and they're probably decently good at it. However, EVE Online has proposed an alternative to traditional RMT-management which seems to have worked.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

That would be off topic, I'd say.

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I agree, kinda. My bad. Let's continue to argue in circles. Its a good system. RMT Bad, no. You don't even understand the system, don't comment. The system works, but SE will never allow it. I see how the system could work but I don't want it. ||:||

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Originally Posted by Elexia

It's ironic you dislike people being rude and confrontational..yet that's all you are.

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I'm afraid that demolishing your misguided and hateful arguments doesn't equate to being rude or confrontational. As much as you don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

The massive prices on the AH I've seen just a few months ago say the opposite.

Banning accounts works very badly in combating RMT, because besides the very possible collateral damage (and in fact it happened), RMTs have access to a virtually infinite number of accounts through credential theft or credit card fraud.

What SE did in XI is simply a very extensive game of whack-a-mole.



Too bad that all you can prove is nothing else than a strawman argument, as no one here argued that RMT doesn't exist in any game. Try harder :D

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I can give you links to many sites all selling currency for the games this system supposedly worked in, no fewer than a dozen each. Not only do RMT exist for those games, they're all over the place.

Still waiting for even one link supporting this system's effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

TOS change all the time to suit a company's needs. All they need to do is to send you a mail inviting you to aknowledge it again. I think the Xbox Live TOS changed about five times in the last two years.

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Holy crap guys, we're speaking a SE executive.

This is me putting it plain. You are nothing to do with SE. Therefore you cannot predict if they will change their ToS in this (or any) matter, much less say they will just because Microsoft did once upon a time. Such is unlikely, very much so. Especially considering SE have had the same stance on real money trading for 10 years.

Having the customer pay money for currency is what F2P MMOs do. (while making ways to accrue money without handing over your credit card details very scarce, but that's neither here nor there.) In case you haven't noticed, XIV isn't going free to play. Just because a few companies have done it does not mean it's a viable way to get rid of RMT. It's a viable way for said companies to make extra money and potentially rip off their playerbase, but that's it.

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Originally Posted by GodseijuroHiko

I agree, kinda. My bad. Let's continue to argue in circles. Its a good system. RMT Bad, no. You don't even understand the system, don't comment. The system works, but SE will never allow it. I see how the system could work but I don't want it. ||:||

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That's not much of a problem. People can cry for their side as much as they want, but the decision is for SE to take, and if someone thinks that anything said here can influence that decision one way or another, I'll sure laugh.

All the fearmongers are doing is bumping this thread over and over, raising the chance that the idea will reach the right people that do have the tools and the power to make a decision. That's all i need.

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Originally Posted by faris

Holy crap guys, we're speaking a SE executive.

This is me putting it plain. You are nothing to do with SE. Therefore you cannot predict if they will change their ToS in this (or any) matter, much less say they will just because Microsoft did once upon a time. Such is unlikely, very much so. Especially considering SE have had the same stance on real money trading for 10 years.

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Where did I predict anything? I simply said it's possible, and legally viable.

SE had the same negative stance on official forums for 8+ years as well. Guess where we're writing now?

I'm not sure, but a whole lot of things changed at SE in the past couple years.

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Having the customer pay money for currency is what F2P MMOs do.

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EVE Online and TERA say you're wrong :D

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Originally Posted by Abriael

That's not much of a problem. People can cry for their side as much as they want, but the decision is for SE to take, and if someone thinks that anything said here can influence that decision one way or another, I'll sure laugh.

All the fearmongers are doing is bumping this thread over and over, raising the chance that the idea will reach the right people that do have the tools and the power to make a decision. That's all i need.

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It's cute you think YOUR opinion will "reach the right people" but everyone else's won't sway SE one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

It's cute you think YOUR opinion will "reach the right people" but everyone else's won't sway SE one way or the other.

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Neither opinion will sway anyone ("anything said here" tends to be fairly inclusive. It's common English, you know). All I need is the idea to get there. They'll be the ones looking for the data and taking the decisions.

When making decisions about money, SE will listen to their marketing and financial departments before anything that's said here.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Neither opinion will sway anyone. All I need is the idea to get there. They'll be the ones looking for the data and taking the decisions.

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Considering no mention has been made of any such system, I'd say they've made their decision. This whole thread has been you trying to convince them otherwise. But by all means continue arguing with nothing to support it, I'm sure that will change their mind.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

I can give you links to many sites all selling currency for the games this system supposedly worked in, no fewer than a dozen each. Not only do RMT exist for those games, they're all over the place.

Still waiting for even one link supporting this system's effectiveness.

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http://rushprnews.com/2012/07/11/new...nomy-by-mmobux

http://rushprnews.com/images/posts/5...6348b81051.jpg

This graph shows that RMT prices for in-game currency in EVE have dropped nearly 75% since the introduction of the PLEX system in 2009. That means that RMTers have earned 75% less profits since PLEX was implemented. PLEX works. Sources, huzzah!

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Neither opinion will sway anyone ("anything said here" tends to be fairly inclusive. It's common English, you know). All I need is the idea to get there. They'll be the ones looking for the data and taking the decisions.

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I'm confident that if they don't think it will work in this game, or will be more trouble than it's worth, they will kill it.

But it's certainly worth consideration if they think that they can get enough new players (F2P types) to sign up under this system... moreso if it puts a damper on RMT in the process.

I trust Yoshi and Co to make the right call on this. :)

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Considering no mention has been made of any such system, I'd say they've made their decision. This whole thread has been you trying to convince them otherwise. But by all means continue arguing with nothing to support it, I'm sure that will change their mind.

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Unfortunately, you defining my (very solid) argument "nothing" doesn't make it so. As much as you'd surely like it.

There are a lot of things that will make it into ARR that they didn't mention yet.