Don't do chaotic raid again

i like it and i would like to get it again.... but.... its neither what i wanted nor can they just create unlimited content. so it may be better to make something else.

I’d be much more welcoming to the ‘chaotic raid’ if it actually appeared alongside some kind of substantive casual content that wasn’t literally ‘allied tribe quests take 3456’ lol. Maybe they could’ve released it later?

Do the devs honestly think FFXIV is some kind of hardcore raider community that’s queuing up on a national [Western] holiday* to do the newest raid? ‘Sorry family I can’t see you all this year I have to fight Cloud of Darkness but harder this time’ lol.

Who is this content even for? Don’t savage raiders have all their BiS by now anyway? (I genuinely don’t know lol). And casual players probably aren’t interested in BiS anyway, especially in a game like ffxiv where horizontal gear optimisation offers minuscule overall performance increases at best.

*And before anyone comes at me I am well aware Christmas isn’t celebrated to nearly the same extent in JP as it is in the west and thus it’s not as big a deal over there for release dates etc.

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Originally Posted by Connor

I’d be much more welcoming to the ‘chaotic raid’ if it actually appeared alongside some kind of substantive casual content that wasn’t literally ‘allied tribe quests take 3456’ lol. Maybe they could’ve released it later?

Do the devs honestly think FFXIV is some kind of hardcore raider community that’s queuing up on a national [Western] holiday* to do the newest raid? ‘Sorry family I can’t see you all this year I have to fight Cloud of Darkness but harder this time’ lol.

Who is this content even for? Don’t savage raiders have all their BiS by now anyway? (I genuinely don’t know lol). And casual players probably aren’t interested in BiS anyway, especially in a game like ffxiv where horizontal gear optimisation offers minuscule overall performance increases at best.

*And before anyone comes at me I am well aware Christmas isn’t celebrated to nearly the same extent in JP as it is in the west and thus it’s not as big a deal over there for release dates etc.

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Hilariously Christmas Eve is arguably a worse release date from a JP centric perspective because while JP doesn’t celebrate Christmas as strongly as the west they do celebrate Christmas Eve very much as it’s considered a romantic holiday similar to Valentine’s Day

If they were deciding where to stick it purely based on JP’s celebration habits they likely would have stuck it on Christmas Day itself as it’s less important, it just so happens Eve was a Tuesday this year and we only ever get updates on a Tuesday

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

1) you can craft your own gear, it isn’t hard and doesn’t take that long to gear up one class
2) Gil is worthless in this game, run your daily’s need or greed on everything and sell the seal products and you can basically pay for crafted gear alone let alone the 1049591060295&1$ other methods of obtaining Gil

Excessive savage release over casual content is fair enough but delaying savage for near two months to allow someone who plays 1 hour per month to gear up is just pointless and further renders the crafters useless

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Yes it does. It takes me ages to level crafting. I still haven't finished levelling crafting now. And gathering and wasting materials while you work out a recipie that doesn't break and fail. It takes so long , and for me... its just sooo boring. I just cant do it. Custom deliveries is all the tie I want to spend on crafting. As for gil, I don't know what your doing but I', break even on gil. I don't RP I'm not spending it on glams. About all I'm spending it on is food for Exs actually.
Crafted gear just isn't an option. Unless again, you want to delay so I can get that levelled. I don't enjoy levelling crafting unless I can spread it out a bit here and there. And I don't have the gil.

unless... crafted gear lasts a 'whole' expansion... that I can afford... maybe it does... let me see... nope I cant work it out it looks like there is only one. But I dont see how that can be the case.

(Oh and I had two weeks of from release where I basically did nothing but DT. I'm not playing 1 hour a week)

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Nah, my guess is it will end up be being like BA / RS and discord groups will be running these for a while.

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The main difference is that BA and DRS have a decent amount of novelty in their gameplay. The only thing CoD 3 really has to differentiate it from an extra savage floor is the number of people, so I don't see it having the same kind of longevity once the hairstyle's value declines.

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Originally Posted by Connor

I’d be much more welcoming to the ‘chaotic raid’ if it actually appeared alongside some kind of substantive casual content that wasn’t literally ‘allied tribe quests take 3456’ lol. Maybe they could’ve released it later?

Do the devs honestly think FFXIV is some kind of hardcore raider community that’s queuing up on a national [Western] holiday* to do the newest raid? ‘Sorry family I can’t see you all this year I have to fight Cloud of Darkness but harder this time’ lol.

Who is this content even for? Don’t savage raiders have all their BiS by now anyway? (I genuinely don’t know lol). And casual players probably aren’t interested in BiS anyway, especially in a game like ffxiv where horizontal gear optimisation offers minuscule overall performance increases at best.

*And before anyone comes at me I am well aware Christmas isn’t celebrated to nearly the same extent in JP as it is in the west and thus it’s not as big a deal over there for release dates etc.

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While true (along with what supersnow said), this is a worldwide game that there's hundreds of thousands of people that play in countries where traveling for the Christmas/New Year's season is common to the point that only some people even bothered to log on to try it. When I'm seeing low amounts of PFs ON AETHER it was a bad idea from the start.
But yeah I wouldn't be so annoyed if there was literally any other content except something I do in 5-10 mins weekly (the custom delivery).

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Originally Posted by Infindox

While true (along with what supersnow said), this is a worldwide game that there's hundreds of thousands of people that play in countries where traveling for the Christmas/New Year's season is common to the point that only some people even bothered to log on to try it. When I'm seeing low amounts of PFs ON AETHER it was a bad idea from the start.
But yeah I wouldn't be so annoyed if there was literally any other content except something I do in 5-10 mins weekly (the custom delivery).

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Yeah, I wasn’t aware of what Supersnow said about how Christmas Eve is probably even more significant there than Christmas Day. Which just raises even more questions lol.

And yeah I was thinking that as well when I was writing. Like, I know they don’t celebrate it the same way we do, but surely they know the significance the holiday has to many people that makes them specifically less likely to log onto an online game that day. But I didn’t know if that was just me being too Eurocentric-minded lol.

Also agree with the PF experience. I’ve been looking out for it on PF since I was like ‘maybe there’s a ton of people actually doing it?’. Yeah, no lol. Not in my purely anecdotal experience based on a sample size of like 3 lol. I guess it’s maybe more an FC activity than PF?

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

And gathering and wasting materials while you work out a recipe that doesn't break and fail.

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This is a bit off topic, but if you're not wedded to working out crafting rotations completely by yourself, I've found https://craftingway.app/ to be a great starting point. Also, Trial Synthesis is a thing (you only need to waste food and pots).

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

My guess is that they designed that to push non raider to try to raid

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This has been my take for a while now. They keep making hard (as in, one person messing up noticeably punishes the entire raid, if not outright wipes it) content while leaving lasting midcore battle content otherwise in a drought (EW straight up didn't have one of those). I think a lot of the sanding down of jobs they've been doing were attempts to make people try them too. Why spend resources on making content not many people'd actually play?

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

This is a bit off topic, but if you're not wedded to working out crafting rotations completely by yourself, I've found https://craftingway.app/ to be a great starting point. Also, Trial Synthesis is a thing (you only need to waste food and pots).

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There is also teamcraft that can either give you rotations, or let you play with trailing without using foot and pots.

I wonder does this take away from 24 man content in the new exploration zone style content. I like the idea of Chaotic raid. But I would much prefer more dynamic mechanics to the 24 man. Not everyone standing on a platform doing a first fight of a savage fight mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Yeah, I wasn’t aware of what Supersnow said about how Christmas Eve is probably even more significant there than Christmas Day. Which just raises even more questions lol.

And yeah I was thinking that as well when I was writing. Like, I know they don’t celebrate it the same way we do, but surely they know the significance the holiday has to many people that makes them specifically less likely to log onto an online game that day. But I didn’t know if that was just me being too Eurocentric-minded lol.

Also agree with the PF experience. I’ve been looking out for it on PF since I was like ‘maybe there’s a ton of people actually doing it?’. Yeah, no lol. Not in my purely anecdotal experience based on a sample size of like 3 lol. I guess it’s maybe more an FC activity than PF?

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I was trying to think both North American and European minded before I posted that lol.
Also this feels like content that if you don't have a static or big FC, the only way you will get people to help is if you're well known. They always post videos saying how easy it is to do content, but in my experience if you're not asking around on achievement discords (which were also very thin with asking people to run the raid as well), then you're going to have a hard time on PF. All they had to do was make the raid in a way that it was puggable...

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

My issue with this type of content is it always ends up as dead content after the first wave of ppl have cleared it. I still cant find groups to do criterion duns with and chaotic raid is going to be worst bc you need 6x more ppl. I hate it bc there is always something locked behind this content I really want. For Criterion it was the glow version of the last tier tomestone weapons. God, I want my avatar rpr weapon so badly. I going to try to do this new 24 man this weekend but I know if I don't clear before everyone gets bored with it, I will never get to clear it and even more rewards are locked behind died content. I know the community says they want something new but every time we do get something new it dies so fast...

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I just learned that there is not just one mount but TWO mounts for this fight and honestly, that pisses me off even more. To be honest I didn't know all the rewards for this fight, I just knew there was gear, the shoad of darkness mount, and the hairstyle. Today I learned you get a tile of darkness mount as well...WHY DOES THIS FIGHT HAVE SO MANY DAMN REWARDS!?! The main thing is there is no f'ing reason for the hairstyle to be locked behind this damn fight and because it will die off like crit dun the hairstyle price on the MB will never drop that much...it most likely will stay in the 100 mil range. This fight doesn't need 2 mounts, 730 gear, and a hairstyle... The gear and the mounts are enough...

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

I just learned that there is not just one mount but TWO mounts for this fight and honestly, that pisses me off even more. To be honest I didn't know all the rewards for this fight, I just knew there was gear, the shoad of darkness mount, and the hairstyle. Today I learned you get a tile of darkness mount as well...WHY DOES THIS FIGHT HAVE SO MANY DAMN REWARDS!?! The main thing is there is no f'ing reason for the hairstyle to be locked behind this damn fight and because it will die off like crit dun the hairstyle price on the MB will never drop that much...it most likely will stay in the 100 mil range. This fight doesn't need 2 mounts, 730 gear, and a hairstyle... The gear and the mounts are enough...

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The content will die because nobody wants to do it

Don’t give it rewards because the content will die

Like I don’t know who this content is for but ripping rewards out of it is exactly the easiest way to ensuring that the content WILL die. And I’m happy to sacrifice mounts and hairstyles for content I won’t do to keep it alive. Content should lock good and desirable rewards

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The content will die because nobody wants to do it

Don’t give it rewards because the content will die

Like I don’t know who this content is for but ripping rewards out of it is exactly the easiest way to ensuring that the content WILL die. And I’m happy to sacrifice mounts and hairstyles for content I won’t do to keep it alive. Content should lock good and desirable rewards

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My only issue is the hairstyle...the mounts are fine to be in content like this but a hairstyle? If this content has to have gear, 2 mounts, a minion, and a hairstyle just to keep it alive then it shouldn't been made in the first place IMO. The mounts, gear and even the minion should be enough reward for this type of content. My only issue is the hairstyle.

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

I just learned that there is not just one mount but TWO mounts for this fight and honestly, that pisses me off even more. To be honest I didn't know all the rewards for this fight, I just knew there was gear, the shoad of darkness mount, and the hairstyle. Today I learned you get a tile of darkness mount as well...WHY DOES THIS FIGHT HAVE SO MANY DAMN REWARDS!?! The main thing is there is no f'ing reason for the hairstyle to be locked behind this damn fight and because it will die off like crit dun the hairstyle price on the MB will never drop that much...it most likely will stay in the 100 mil range. This fight doesn't need 2 mounts, 730 gear, and a hairstyle... The gear and the mounts are enough...

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As much as I enjoy keeping Square Enix accountable for their mistakes - Yoshi-P did promise an uptick in rewards for players, and more player rewards is generally a good thing. So I guess that promise is kinda being worked on.
Now, all these rewards behind an experimental bit of content where the longevity is not a given... thats definitely a questionable choice.

Though, CS3 seem a bit weird with how they space out the rewards, are they not? They add the joke weapons, but only make them drop in map dungeons. They release a PvP Patch, and don't really add any PvP rewards. Then they release another Savage level raid, with 2 mounts, interesting looking gear and a hairstyle design contest winner.

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

My only issue is the hairstyle...the mounts are fine to be in content like this but a hairstyle? If this content has to have gear, 2 mounts, a minion, and a hairstyle just to keep it alive then it shouldn't been made in the first place IMO. The mounts, gear and even the minion should be enough reward for this type of content. My only issue is the hairstyle.

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I'll agree on the hairstyle, feels like their idea to put the desirable glamour weapons from the contest in maps. (Instead of pvp, but that's going off topic). Everything else makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Rolks

Oh, this is totally going to direction of Criterion Dungeons. No one will be doing this in four months.

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I give it one month and you will have a hard time finding a PF that is not behind a discord server.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Hilariously Christmas Eve is arguably a worse release date from a JP centric perspective because while JP doesn’t celebrate Christmas as strongly as the west they do celebrate Christmas Eve very much as it’s considered a romantic holiday similar to Valentine’s Day

If they were deciding where to stick it purely based on JP’s celebration habits they likely would have stuck it on Christmas Day itself as it’s less important, it just so happens Eve was a Tuesday this year and we only ever get updates on a Tuesday

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We all know mmo players don't have romantic partners, thus this is a non problem.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I give it one month and you will have a hard time finding a PF that is not behind a discord server.

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It will probably be a much better experience via those Discord servers than it would through PF though.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

There is also teamcraft that can either give you rotations, or let you play with trailing without using foot and pots.

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Raphael is better: https://www.raphael-xiv.com/

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

It will probably be a much better experience via those Discord servers than it would through PF though.

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This leads to the fact there should not be content that forces you on Discord to clear it, and should only be for people who need to use it to communicate with their party in statics for Savage/Ultimate raids. But I know not everyone agrees with me on that.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

This leads to the fact there should not be content that forces you on Discord to clear it, and should only be for people who need to use it to communicate with their party in statics for Savage/Ultimate raids. But I know not everyone agrees with me on that.

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Sadly, when you join a pf group in this game, people will very often just stay silent, put markers down to form LP, partners and such and then start pulling. If the group wipes, they pull again and again leaving no time to explain anything in between pulls, leading to the same mistakes being made over and over until people start leaving (there is no point to stay in such conditions…the only option is to find a better group and it’s the pf waiting game with the risk of finding another similar group). Some mistakes would be easy to fix with a minimum of communication and progress would be faster.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

At best discord may help in the way collecting small groups for things like MINE savage from ARR and HW but that’s basically just advertising on PF by a different name

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Clearing Chaotic through discord is going to be inevitable. PF is full of inconsiderate players, limsa-afkers, prog-traps, and trolls.

Discord will be able to ban those players from the server/community, allowing 24 players to have a better experience.

This is both the fault of CBU3 and the playerbase. CBU3 for allowing players who's hardest content clears are msq dungeons to enter Chaotic, and the playerbase who are mainly leechers hoping 23 other players will carry them across the finish line so they can roll on the hair design.

I honestly cannot wait until we have this very same discussion but the other way around, when BIS gear will be locked behind cosmic exploration or whatever the hell it was.
Oh it will be glorious.

(probably wont happen but you all gotta admit it would be funny as hell)

Also, didn YoshiP told us, that discord is technically a 3rd party program? And people straight up making it a requirement for runs and advertising it on the forums? D:

On a serious note tho, genuinely believe that this content will be dead by mid january at best. Such wasted dev time.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

Sadly, when you join a pf group in this game, people will very often just stay silent, put markers down to form LP, partners and such and then start pulling. If the group wipes, they pull again and again leaving no time to explain anything in between pulls, leading to the same mistakes being made over and over until people start leaving (there is no point to stay in such conditions…the only option is to find a better group and it’s the pf waiting game with the risk of finding another similar group). Some mistakes would be easy to fix with a minimum of communication and progress would be faster.

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I should say I'm fine if you join a PF and they ask "can you hop on this server? We want to discuss strategies". That's more then fair. (Not always ideal with people who don't like being in places like that but I get it) But having to go to servers to find players that will run content otherwise you're SOL is not great.

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Originally Posted by AyumiCosplayGlam

I honestly cannot wait until we have this very same discussion but the other way around, when BIS gear will be locked behind cosmic exploration or whatever the hell it was.
Oh it will be glorious.

(probably wont happen but you all gotta admit it would be funny as hell)

Also, didn YoshiP told us, that discord is technically a 3rd party program? And people straight up making it a requirement for runs and advertising it on the forums? D:

On a serious note tho, genuinely believe that this content will be dead by mid january at best. Such wasted dev time.

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To be honest people have been doing this for years. I didn't very much like his view of what a third-party program is, it feels like he took it far, far too literally instead of trying to actually look at the spirit of the issue. But alas he's the producer and director so...

I don't think it's wasted dev time, but like 90% of things they implement in this game.. It's half-done. Chaotic should've had 2 tiers behind it really as opposed to the singular, that way you're still introducing people to that content instead of throwing them straight in and then the community coming up with their own rules. - If it isn't 1 thing with this team then it's another.

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Originally Posted by Gullis

I don't see why anyone new to raiding would do this over just doing m1s

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Many reasons? Some people like raids with more bodies? (DRS, DLL, DR, Castrum, BA, Alliance Raids etc.) for one.

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Originally Posted by AyumiCosplayGlam

On a serious note tho, genuinely believe that this content will be dead by mid january at best. Such wasted dev time.

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Dead in PF, "alive" in discord like how BA and DRS are.

Also, not really much of a waste of dev resources since everything in the fight is reused models and mechanics. Probably took an intern a whole weekend to throw together.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

1) you can craft your own gear, it isn’t hard and doesn’t take that long to gear up one class
2) Gil is worthless in this game, run your daily’s need or greed on everything and sell the seal products and you can basically pay for crafted gear alone let alone the 1049591060295&1$ other methods of obtaining Gil

Excessive savage release over casual content is fair enough but delaying savage for near two months to allow someone who plays 1 hour per month to gear up is just pointless and further renders the crafters useless

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You lost me at "Excessive savage release over casual content is fair enough." How is this fair enough? Who is this fair for?

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Originally Posted by AyumiCosplayGlam

I honestly cannot wait until we have this very same discussion but the other way around, when BIS gear will be locked behind cosmic exploration or whatever the hell it was.
Oh it will be glorious.

(probably wont happen but you all gotta admit it would be funny as hell)

Also, didn YoshiP told us, that discord is technically a 3rd party program? And people straight up making it a requirement for runs and advertising it on the forums? D:

On a serious note tho, genuinely believe that this content will be dead by mid january at best. Such wasted dev time.

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No, no. You're misunderstanding surely! THAT one third party program is approved by the community!!!

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Many reasons? Some people like raids with more bodies? (DRS, DLL, DR, Castrum, BA, Alliance Raids etc.) for one.

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If someone has no experience in Savage (or even Extreme) then they have no place doing Chaotic. They are simply not skilled/used to content of that level and will be forcing 23 other people to suffer wipe upon wipe because of them.
Chaotic is absolutely not "my first difficult content". Content with this many people demands consistency.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

If someone has no experience in Savage (or even Extreme) then they have no place doing Chaotic. They are simply not skilled/used to content of that level and will be forcing 23 other people to suffer wipe upon wipe because of them.
Chaotic is absolutely not "my first difficult content". Content with this many people demands consistency.

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Again, that begs the question, who is this content for? It was very much obviously designed to get new people interested in jumping right in with all those rewards thrown into it.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

who is this content for?

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People like Arthars who went to every single fanfest across the globe and begged Yoshi P for it every single time he met him.

The devs tried to advertise this as a gateway content for casuals to get into hardcore content, and that is absolutely not the reality we got. If casuals aren't already doing extremes (which is easier than this) they aren't going to do this, and those that are, are just ruining it for everyone. It's been very obvious while progging and clearing this in PF over the past 2 days, who was used to content of this level and who wasn't.
The issue is, content of this scale demands that you are a consistent player. PF is barely consistent enough for 8 man savage fights, put 24 of them together, and you're going to guarantee that one or two people per pull will mess up and snowball into a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

People like Arthars who went to every single fanfest across the globe and begged Yoshi P for it every single time he met him.

The devs tried to advertise this as a gateway content for casuals to get into hardcore content, and that is absolutely not the reality we got. If casuals aren't already doing extremes (which is easier than this) they aren't going to do this, and those that are, are just ruining it for everyone. It's been very obvious while progging and clearing this in PF over the past 2 days, who was used to content of this level and who wasn't.
The issue is, content of this scale demands that you are a consistent player. PF is barely consistent enough for 8 man savage fights, put 24 of them together, and you're going to guarantee that one or two people per pull will mess up and snowball into a wipe.

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This content basically is added to the pile of Savage tier raids current tier raiders already got this expansion, at the end of the day. Just with more desirable rewards.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

This content basically is added to the pile of Savage tier raids current tier raiders already got this expansion, at the end of the day. Just with more desirable rewards.

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This is where we disagree. I'm absolutely okay with more Savage level content. I loved criterion, for example. I just don't think the playerbase is consistent enough for 24 man content. If criterion had gotten rewards of this scale (instead of basically nothing) it would have been a much bigger success.
I wish the dev time went into more criterion than this Chaotic fight. It was longer and the fights were actually more engaging.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

This is where we disagree. I'm absolutely okay with more Savage level content. I loved criterion, for example. I just don't think the playerbase is consistent enough for 24 man content. If criterion had gotten rewards of this scale (instead of basically nothing) it would have been a much bigger success.
I wish the dev time went into more criterion than this Chaotic fight. It was longer and the fights were actually more engaging.

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I'm unsure how this is disagreeable? This is another Extreme or Savage tier level fight on top of the others already dropped in this expansion, not to mention FRU, with the lack of... anything else for people who don't raid.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

I'm unsure how this is disagreeable? This is another Extreme or Savage tier level fight on top of the others already dropped in this expansion, not to mention FRU, with the lack of... anything else for people who don't raid.

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jUsT wAiT fOr OcCuLt CrEsCeNt

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

To be honest people have been doing this for years. I didn't very much like his view of what a third-party program is, it feels like he took it far, far too literally instead of trying to actually look at the spirit of the issue. But alas he's the producer and director so...

I don't think it's wasted dev time, but like 90% of things they implement in this game.. It's half-done. Chaotic should've had 2 tiers behind it really as opposed to the singular, that way you're still introducing people to that content instead of throwing them straight in and then the community coming up with their own rules. - If it isn't 1 thing with this team then it's another.

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I know, his take was pretty much bs.

Not a waste of dev time?
Tell me, is it not a waste of time and resource to set up a McDonalds in the middle of the desert with no civilization in a 500km radius?Its not a bad thing to have, just the timing and place make it a waste to set up.

Same can be applied to chaotic, its not a bad thing that we have it inherently, its just that niche content like this should be only focused on when the masses are satisfied to some degree, that has not happened since yawntrail release and sure as hell wont happen until around March-May.

When they saw the reception of Yawntrail, they should have been dropping everything that can be categorized as luxuries and start working all hands on deck to course correct.
Its not hard to rebalance all alliance raids for max level on a fixed item level for example and give us a roulette for it with some totems as rewards that can be exchanged for shinies.

No joke, i could probably do it within a week without any help, once i have an optimal hp/damage output for a boss, 80% of the work is done, the rest is just minibosses and mobs.
And guess what, rebalancing all those raids are only "hard to do" only once/expansion, once you have it you are done until the next level cap.
Its not rocket science to create content that the majority of our playerbase can interact with.
But for some reason rebalancing outdated content for max level is restricted to 1 extreme trial in every 4 months which is rotated out, why exactly?
Why cant we have normal old content rebalanced for max level so we can use all our skills in more content?

Even if they cannot do bandaid course correction like this fast enough for whatever reason, its still better to delay the chaotic by a few weeks and putting out fires anywhere you can, rather than pour some gasoline on it by making it as the only content for 4 months and asking people to hang on.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

You lost me at "Excessive savage release over casual content is fair enough." How is this fair enough? Who is this fair for?

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I meant it’s a fair enough criticism