Samurai changes are unacceptable in the current iteration

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Originally Posted by Akava

I know it was hopium and a little bit silly but I was really hoping they're revert the changes with 6.11. I was hoping for some hint that they've heard us at this point.

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They will most likely not do anything until 6.2
I'll see you in 4 months when they either revert (unlikely) or do a mini rework for SAM

I can't sleep because I'm pissed off.

Let me tell you guys a secret - the changes today weren't to address our concerns, it was to widen the gap between meme rotation and normal rotation so it's no longer viable. But knowing SE's approach, they probably even failed at that.

I'll summarize the reaction so far in JP: Where is the communication? Did you read the forums? Loss of faith in the developers, saying goodbyes. A lot are convinced this was to tell us to shut up. There is a joke about this game lasting another 10 years at this rate. There's been a lot of pages made saying these same things. They are also aware that overseas players have the majorly shared opinion that the 6.1 changes are pure garbage.

But it doesn't stop there. CN and KR are also starting to get loud, while behind in patches, they know what's coming. Stop making adjustments for those who don't want to learn or improve. Existing users matter as much as new users.

these changes, lol. lmao even. i mean sure, it's a .11 patch so personally my expectations were low on them actually doing anything of substance, but damn you'd think they'd at least give some indication that they're paying attention to the actual issues that people have, and not just try nerfing a meme rotation by giving back some potency.

hell, didn't the director say sam and/or nin players would have their issues addressed? where the fuck's that message on the lodestone? housing got like four within days. and even shitters in pvp got talked about.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

I can't sleep because I'm pissed off.

Let me tell you guys a secret - the changes today weren't to address our concerns, it was to widen the gap between meme rotation and normal rotation so it's no longer viable. But knowing SE's approach, they probably even failed at that.

I'll summarize the reaction so far in JP: Where is the communication? Did you read the forums? Loss of faith in the developers, saying goodbyes. A lot are convinced this was to tell us to shut up. There is a joke about this game lasting another 10 years at this rate. There's been a lot of pages made saying these same things. They are also aware that overseas players have the majorly shared opinion that the 6.1 changes are pure garbage.

But it doesn't stop there. CN and KR are also starting to get loud, while behind in patches, they know what's coming. Stop making adjustments for those who don't want to learn or improve. Existing users matter as much as new users.

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Ah, so, these changes were entirely to make Yuki spam rotation no longer viable. That makes sense.

Good to see that the other versions of the game are now making a stink about this too. Hopefully SE will understand the major mistake they have made, walk back the 6.1 SAM changes in their entirety and then start on a path of revising EVERY OTHER JOB that has suffered like this. Deal with MCH and their issues, address the boring healer rotations, add more complexity to what tanks can do beyond what's present for a tank in a savage or ultimate boss fight; actual REAL rotational challenge instead of the race to the bottom bullshit. That final quote makes a lot of sense. They might very well see a new influx of players but they'd be abandoning some of their longest-term and most stalwart subscribers for a casual playerbase who most definitely isn't going to stick with them through the years.

6.11 just killed meme rotation, but I wasn't expecting 6.11 to be the rollback patch (but a small part of me still hoped!). Going to keep the fight for kaiten and Samurai going till 6.2, that's the earliest I think we can expect real feedback on Samurai's future.

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Originally Posted by SiriusBreeze

6.11 just killed meme rotation, but I wasn't expecting 6.11 to be the rollback patch (but a small part of me still hoped!). Going to keep the fight for kaiten and Samurai going till 6.2, that's the earliest I think we can expect real feedback on Samurai's future.

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As someone that notoriously hasn't kept up with patch date release schedules...

Do we have any idea of when 6.2 would be around? 6.2 is the general feeling I had also right from the get go, as far as a chance of getting a revert, or fix.


As obscure and infuriating as the changes have been, I fully expected SE to give their change some time to settle and see if the noise dies down after some time passed...
(Not to mention other classes of which have sat neglected for ages)

But I'm curious if we are thinking like 2 - 4 months?

I dread the idea that SAM will sit and languish in its decrepit and dull state all the way to 7.0.

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Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

As someone that notoriously hasn't kept up with patch date release schedules...

Do we have any idea of when 6.2 would be around? 6.2 is the general feeling I had also right from the get go, as far as a chance of getting a revert, or fix.


As obscure and infuriating as the changes have been, I fully expected SE to give their change some time to settle and see if the noise dies down after some time passed...
(Not to mention other classes of which have sat neglected for ages)

But I'm curious if we are thinking like 2 - 4 months?

I dread the idea that SAM will sit and languish in its decrepit and dull state all the way to 7.0.

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Current patch cycles run for approximately 16 weeks, so we have another 14 weeks until 6.2, or roughly mid-August (the 16th, if 16 weeks is the actual length between 6.1 and 6.2).

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

these changes, lol. lmao even. i mean sure, it's a .11 patch so personally my expectations were low on them actually doing anything of substance, but damn you'd think they'd at least give some indication that they're paying attention to the actual issues that people have, and not just try nerfing a meme rotation by giving back some potency.

hell, didn't the director say sam and/or nin players would have their issues addressed? where the fuck's that message on the lodestone? housing got like four within days. and even shitters in pvp got talked about.

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I mean wasn't Kaiten removal a tiny change? so a tiny re-correction shouldn't be to much to.... oh wait! no they can't cause it's to big of a change to revert a tiny change that meant a lot. Yup, that don't fly around here. I mean Square is after all a Indie-Company.... Quick changes to everything else is possible though that's for sure definitely. Gone start saying " We got Fk'd over... As is tradition ".

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

I mean wasn't Kaiten removal a tiny change? so a tiny re-correction shouldn't be to much to.... oh wait! no they can't cause it's to big of a change to revert a tiny change that meant a lot. Yup, that don't fly around here. I mean Square is after all a Indie-Company.... Quick changes to everything else is possible though that's for sure definitely. Gone start saying " We got Fk'd over... As is tradition ".

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This right here is what drives me up the wall. They give us a band-aid in 6.11 because "we can't make bigger changes" and all it really does is make the meme rotation less viable next to the intended rotation. Midare still doesn't feel powerful. Why can't they just roll SAM back to 6.08 and come back to it later? Absolutely nothing was broken. Shinten spam is still a thing though, and I remember SE saying they didn't want that several times over the years. That's why Hagakure no longer converts Sen to Kenki at such a high rate, and even why it was temporarily removed.

So Shinten spam is bad, but it's never gone away. Meanwhile the rest of the job is basically dumpstered and the given reasons why range from "frustratingly vague" to "laughably contradictory."

What exactly was the logic behind the potency nerfs? God this sucks.

I’m still very disappointed with the changes to Samurai in 6.1 and would very much like them to go back to 6.08 with a future update but I’m even more disappointed how they are handling the whole Situation.

There has been radio silence after the last PLL and pretty much every reason they gave us can be debunked in 5 minutes of playtesting the changes. Meanwhile we got like 4 Updates in the span of a week because of problems with the housing lottery. I’m not saying we shouldn’t get those updates on the housing lottery, but I feel not even acknowledging all the feedback is what makes most of the people angry.

At this point I just hope they clarify in the upcoming days if they are planning to revert some of the changes or going a different direction with the job. This way people can accept the changes and move on to other jobs or quit the game.

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Originally Posted by Ascona

I’m still very disappointed with the changes to Samurai in 6.1 and would very much like them to go back to 6.08 with a future update but I’m even more disappointed how they are handling the whole Situation.

There has been radio silence after the last PLL and pretty much every reason they gave us can be debunked in 5 minutes of playtesting the changes. Meanwhile we got like 4 Updates in the span of a week because of problems with the housing lottery. I’m not saying we shouldn’t get those updates on the housing lottery, but I feel not even acknowledging all the feedback is what makes most of the people angry.

At this point I just hope they clarify in the upcoming days if they are planning to revert some of the changes or going a different direction with the job. This way people can accept the changes and move on to other jobs or quit the game.

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Agreed. Some actual insight on the matter would be appreciated

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Originally Posted by Quor

Current patch cycles run for approximately 16 weeks, so we have another 14 weeks until 6.2, or roughly mid-August (the 16th, if 16 weeks is the actual length between 6.1 and 6.2).

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Yah, that is pretty disappointing to hear. Hopefully we see something before 6.2

Thanks for the details.

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Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

Yah, that is pretty disappointing to hear. Hopefully we see something before 6.2

Thanks for the details.

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You wont. Get used to being a shinten bot or rerolling to another class. But at least SE fixed your button bloat issue, right? Or was it the damage issue? I forget which excuses they want to use. All I know is samurai is flat out boring to play. Have to play it for the first week of Dragonsong because SE screwed samurais over on gear and wont refund our tomes and books, and my god, being a shinten bot for an ultimate was still putting me to sleep.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

All I know is samurai is flat out boring to play. Have to play it for the first week of Dragonsong because SE screwed samurais over on gear and wont refund our tomes and books, and my god, being a shinten bot for an ultimate was still putting me to sleep.

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This is probably bloating the job's playrate quite significantly, since a lot of people who only farmed one savage set will be forced to do the ultimate on Samurai for the first week or so, myself included

I agree with OP 120%, and to add to the “action bloat issue” I see Devs still haven’t removed Kaeshi: Higanbana. We don’t need a second Higanbana, I’ve used it maybe 5 times trying to work it into multiple enemy pulls and it’s useless. No one uses Kaeshi: Higanbana regularly, so why take away a basic ability SAM’s been using since Stormblood and not this crappy dot that cannot be used in high-level gameplay?

I’ve said it twice, I’ll say it again,

WHAT DID YOY DO TO SAMURAI JOB!?

NOT FAVORABLE.

Hey folks, sorry for the late update. 12 hour shifts and all that.

Popular points on Samurai changes: Samurai are useless, baggage, dead weight. Continuous feedback asking for answers, suggestions being given, and theories on criticals. The speculation that this was all done for Dragonsong's DPS checks, and if so, how the hell is that justified when it's one piece of content? Are we designing jobs based on Ultimate only now? I guess so after what they said about healers. Keep in mind I am one of those people who do Ultimates, and I disagree with this garbage mindset. I'd rather play Scholar than Samurai right now and find it more engaging.

"This game is a failure as a game because it's dull before you can even play."

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Originally Posted by Roxus

Hey folks, sorry for the late update. 12 hour shifts and all that.

Popular points on Samurai changes: Samurai are useless, baggage, dead weight. Continuous feedback asking for answers, suggestions being given, and theories on criticals. The speculation that this was all done for Dragonsong's DPS checks, and if so, how the hell is that justified when it's one piece of content? Are we designing jobs based on Ultimate only now? I guess so after what they said about healers. Keep in mind I am one of those people who do Ultimates, and I disagree with this garbage mindset. I'd rather play Scholar than Samurai right now and find it more engaging.

"This game is a failure as a game because it's dull before you can even play."

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Sorry to derail a bit but could you give us some small updates on what they think about Ninja too?
I believe Ninja is in a better spot than Samurai but far from perfect

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Originally Posted by Roxus

Hey folks, sorry for the late update. 12 hour shifts and all that.

Popular points on Samurai changes: Samurai are useless, baggage, dead weight. Continuous feedback asking for answers, suggestions being given, and theories on criticals. The speculation that this was all done for Dragonsong's DPS checks, and if so, how the hell is that justified when it's one piece of content? Are we designing jobs based on Ultimate only now? I guess so after what they said about healers. Keep in mind I am one of those people who do Ultimates, and I disagree with this garbage mindset. I'd rather play Scholar than Samurai right now and find it more engaging.

"This game is a failure as a game because it's dull before you can even play."

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Man that's some intense doomposting. But I can't argue with it; everything about these SAM changes, from the un-updated tooltips to the actual changes themselves, comes off as half-baked and half-assed.

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Originally Posted by butchersblock

Sorry to derail a bit but could you give us some small updates on what they think about Ninja too?
I believe Ninja is in a better spot than Samurai but far from perfect

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I'd like to extend the petition for DRG as well!

I'm one of the people jumping in to the forums for the first time just because I need to protest these Samurai changes. I've never mained Saumrai. Hell, I'm a healer main for the most part, but I've always liked wandering around and trying other jobs from time to time just to keep things fresh. But man, honestly, I wouldn't even mind if they nerfed Samurai, I just want the homogenization to go away. Samurai's lost its focus on its big finishers, and Samurai has been all about it's big finishers for as long as I've been playing, it was what I would dust off the job to do, it's what made me pick Samurai over playing whatever other job. The jobs all having a variety of playstyles and feels is part of what keeps the game fresh.

I also just don't care about the inconsistency argument for Samurai DPS, if that's what they wanted to fix, why remove Kaiten? Just reduce the potency on Midare or whatever, and make it auto-crit so that it balances to roughly the same damage at some tiers of play. I swear, next they'll come for Reassemble-Drill, and we'll all go through this same rioting all over again.

Oh, and one more thing, bring back some kind of secondary benefit to Third Eye please. I get that the secondary buttons were causing some bloat, but can't we at least fit one of them in as an option Third Eye turns into if it procs? Maybe this is the healer main in me talking, but frankly I want more DPS to have buttons that reward them for avoiding damage, and while I'm sure actual Samurai mains can find more use for more Kenki, as someone who only plays Samurai casually, I was finding it troublesome enough to burn Kenki faster than I got it as it was, and having surprise Kenki tossed in could range anywhere from getting me closer to hitting Shinten yet again, or just getting wasted in part or in full if I built up Kenki for a buff window or whatever. Getting a mini-heal, or another option to burn Kenki with was more satisfying on both counts than just ever more Shinten.

2+ weeks later and I still hate it. Please revert :(

They still have threads on the forum for the live letters questions, yes? Back when they did Gunbreaker dirty and gave us terrible sfx we submitted a question to the live letter as to why and they simply told us to give it time to accept the change and ignored the question.

Is it possible to submit several questions for the live letter thread regarding kaiten and Samurai and get a bunch thumbed up so they have to ask them? Make them pointed questions that simply have a yes or no answer so they can't wiggle around it?

I've already been victim of their homogenization twice. I'm not letting this go a third time.

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Originally Posted by Eskat

I'm one of the people jumping in to the forums for the first time just because I need to protest these Samurai changes. I've never mained Saumrai. Hell, I'm a healer main for the most part, but I've always liked wandering around and trying other jobs from time to time just to keep things fresh. But man, honestly, I wouldn't even mind if they nerfed Samurai, I just want the homogenization to go away. Samurai's lost its focus on its big finishers, and Samurai has been all about it's big finishers for as long as I've been playing, it was what I would dust off the job to do, it's what made me pick Samurai over playing whatever other job. The jobs all having a variety of playstyles and feels is part of what keeps the game fresh.

I also just don't care about the inconsistency argument for Samurai DPS, if that's what they wanted to fix, why remove Kaiten? Just reduce the potency on Midare or whatever, and make it auto-crit so that it balances to roughly the same damage at some tiers of play. I swear, next they'll come for Reassemble-Drill, and we'll all go through this same rioting all over again.

Oh, and one more thing, bring back some kind of secondary benefit to Third Eye please. I get that the secondary buttons were causing some bloat, but can't we at least fit one of them in as an option Third Eye turns into if it procs? Maybe this is the healer main in me talking, but frankly I want more DPS to have buttons that reward them for avoiding damage, and while I'm sure actual Samurai mains can find more use for more Kenki, as someone who only plays Samurai casually, I was finding it troublesome enough to burn Kenki faster than I got it as it was, and having surprise Kenki tossed in could range anywhere from getting me closer to hitting Shinten yet again, or just getting wasted in part or in full if I built up Kenki for a buff window or whatever. Getting a mini-heal, or another option to burn Kenki with was more satisfying on both counts than just ever more Shinten.

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I've been telling everyone that I miss Open Eyes proc. Third Eye can turn into Merciful Eyes, make it semi-useful or something. And Shinten can turn into Seigan. I always wondered why Shinten couldn't just be changed to Seigan under Open Eyes. They did the same thing, but one was situational. Make it more potent or cost less.. or both! I wouldn't mind something nice and rewarding for mitigating raid wides. Seigan was one of my favorite buttons in the game.

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Originally Posted by butchersblock

Sorry to derail a bit but could you give us some small updates on what they think about Ninja too?
I believe Ninja is in a better spot than Samurai but far from perfect

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No worries. Honestly Ninjas aren't getting much traction because they are the highest DPS at the moment, so it is satisfying to most.

Trick Attack felt like an Identity skill and having it reduced to a personal buff didn't sit right with some. The debuff icon is not unique and there are requests to change it, putting out Death's Design as an example. Mug looks lame, so some want that changed. Requests to have Mudras delayed like current jump to prevent accidents, and comments on Ten Chi Jin messups as well. Those against the changes feel like they are ignored because they are doing the most damage right now. Also people asking for explanations, because it feels like developers touch jobs without any feedback and stay quiet about it. The opinions are all over the place because they are strong, the changes are technically easier to use if you disregard ninki optimization and many don't actually care that much about those kinds of optimizations.

"Please stop robbing Ninja's."

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Originally Posted by Aco505

I'd like to extend the petition for DRG as well!

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The Jump changes has made the job feel more rigid and there is a request to change it back to 6.08 specifications. Reasoning is the delay and losing the freedom to choose your timings. That is a common opinion and there isn't much deviated from it. They have positive reception to the animation shortening from 6.1, though. They have also asked the developers to come forward and explain job adjustments. This is an important point because they are next in line for major tweaks in 6.2 alongside Astrologian.

"People who don't main Dragoon wanted these changes."

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As for Samurai, more comments on the new Ultimate. They just want them to admit they couldn't balance Samurai for Ultimate. There is a huge loss in traction, partly due to it being a Weekday, but also the fact that many have given up their Katana (or just outright quit).

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Originally Posted by Roxus

As for Samurai, more comments on the new Ultimate. They just want them to admit they couldn't balance Samurai for Ultimate. There is a huge loss in traction, partly due to it being a Weekday, but also the fact that many have given up their Katana (or just outright quit).

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Those who quit contributed the greatest feedback SE can receive at the moment. It's a double-edged sword essentially. Unfortunate it had to come to that; may their sacrifice not be in vain.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

The Jump changes has made the job feel more rigid and there is a request to change it back to 6.08 specifications. Reasoning is the delay and losing the freedom to choose your timings. That is a common opinion and there isn't much deviated from it. They have positive reception to the animation shortening from 6.1, though. They have also asked the developers to come forward and explain job adjustments. This is an important point because they are next in line for major tweaks in 6.2 alongside Astrologian.

"People who don't main Dragoon wanted these changes."

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Thank you! I suppose they're talking about the Mirage Dive merge. It makes sense that JP players share the sentiment of western players!

Just here to say (and make sure thread is bumped) that honestly, I'm kinda sad I'm not noticing sam on player roster in wf race for dsr (unless i'm blind and there actually was at least one).

Also, i've been playing through other jobs since sam feels so boring and i could only heal for so long before i feel the need for that good ol' dps vibe. So far, i've noticed that reaper's smooth gameplay felt exactly how sam felt pre-6.1 and it really makes me feel salty every time i play with it.

Long story short, i still miss ye olde sam. I only use it in pvp now. And yes i'm a casual that enjoyed sam.

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Originally Posted by NotReallyMistral

Just here to say (and make sure thread is bumped) that honestly, I'm kinda sad I'm not noticing sam on player roster in wf race for dsr (unless i'm blind and there actually was at least one).

Also, i've been playing through other jobs since sam feels so boring and i could only heal for so long before i feel the need for that good ol' dps vibe. So far, i've noticed that reaper's smooth gameplay felt exactly how sam felt pre-6.1 and it really makes me feel salty every time i play with it.

Long story short, i still miss ye olde sam. I only use it in pvp now. And yes i'm a casual that enjoyed sam.

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Yeah, my first impressions with RPR are very much akin to my first time leveling up SAM and DRG in the previous xpac. Very well designed, easy to understand, and flows nicely despite the lengthy GCD I have on it. But that last point might just be me since I'm so used to a job that allows me to weave every other GCD

Hey folks.

Small update - more voices about the demerits of having guaranteed crits and disrupting party synergy, stating that this isn't a solo game and we raid with 8 members as a reminder. A few more voices on how Iaijutsu impact is nonexistant with the removal of Kaiten and potency shifts. More repeated statements of how our only contribution is DPS, as a pure DPS, and comparisons made yet again (as well as questioning why the adjustment was made to only one job). In short, many agree that the developers have no idea what they are doing with the concept of Samurai. Changing for the sake of convenience, and because Dragonsong Ultimate is all about short phases where burst is quite valuable so its speculated that the changes to Samurai and Ninja were made with this content in mind. Stop treating the game as a beta environment.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

Hey folks.

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As always, thanks for the updates...

Guessing the JP servers have heard just as much as we have as to any direction SE has for SAM?

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Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

As always, thanks for the updates...

Guessing the JP servers have heard just as much as we have as to any direction SE has for SAM?

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Yup, radio silence. Oh but not to worry, YoshiP has enough time to write several messages for housing. Not to say it isn't important, but he created the disaster himself in the first place when he made poor decisions at the start of it's implementation. It has never, ever left the majority satisfied even once with every addition.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

No worries. Honestly Ninjas aren't getting much traction because they are the highest DPS at the moment, so it is satisfying to most.

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That's quite disappointing, I feared this might be the case since NIN is very strong currently despite its numerous issues in my opinion. I'm glad that more focus is on SAM who could use all the help it can get but I sincerely hope this won't mean sweeping Ninja under the rug.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

Hey folks.

Small update - more voices about the demerits of having guaranteed crits and disrupting party synergy, stating that this isn't a solo game and we raid with 8 members as a reminder. A few more voices on how Iaijutsu impact is nonexistant with the removal of Kaiten and potency shifts. More repeated statements of how our only contribution is DPS, as a pure DPS, and comparisons made yet again (as well as questioning why the adjustment was made to only one job). In short, many agree that the developers have no idea what they are doing with the concept of Samurai. Changing for the sake of convenience, and because Dragonsong Ultimate is all about short phases where burst is quite valuable so its speculated that the changes to Samurai and Ninja were made with this content in mind. Stop treating the game as a beta environment.

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Or ninja's trick attack was basically a fairly useless and actually dead ability until you reached level 45 and also did the quest to unlock Huton. That prior to the change, when you got it at level 18, it was for purely for outdoor content. The changes done made rogue useful with mug providing a damage buff when doing early dungeons and trials.

Like I don't know about you, but would you like to have a button on Samurai that you get at level 18, but can't use till 45?

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Originally Posted by Whalaqee

Or ninja's trick attack was basically a fairly useless and actually dead ability until you reached level 45 and also did the quest to unlock Huton. That prior to the change, when you got it at level 18, it was for purely for outdoor content. The changes done made rogue useful with mug providing a damage buff when doing early dungeons and trials.

Like I don't know about you, but would you like to have a button on Samurai that you get at level 18, but can't use till 45?

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I don't understand what you're trying to argue here. Most jobs have incomplete kits at low levels because that's precisely what it is - low levels. If you want to go that way, yes Samurai has a feels bad low level experience because they only get their dot unlocked for Iaijutsu at 30, and won't have access to their Midare until 50.

I'm sure the devs will take "people are no longer actively complaining about it" as "they waited and saw they liked the changes". So uh, here's a bump.

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Originally Posted by Karious

I'm sure the devs will take "people are no longer actively complaining about it" as "they waited and saw they liked the changes". So uh, here's a bump.

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That seems highly likely.

Gonna bump the post as well.

Please fix SAM. 6.1 and 6.11 was uncalled for. Listen to the cries of the people, please.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

That seems highly likely.

Gonna bump the post as well.

Please fix SAM. 6.1 and 6.11 was uncalled for. Listen to the cries of the people, please.

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Yeah lol I'm just doing casual bumps so it doesn't look like people have forgotten, adjusted, and moved on.
Silence can often be misinterpreted as compliance.

Bump so SE can't think that if just ignore the issue, it'll slowly die.

Been a while, but I'm here to say that I still don't like the changes and Kaiten is still on my bars waiting to be revived.

Edit: Oh, also shift some of the potencies from the rotation back into Midare and Ogi, I hate that change too.