Some thoughts:
1. Meteion opened up a path back home for us after singing her song of hope, which seemed to take the shape of a shooting star. Surely Zenos could use this path too? He did explicitly say "I rode the light of the stars to you" when he shows up in Ultima Thule. I also wonder how the dynamis in the space affected him, exactly?
2. Someone was able to get a picture of Zenos's avatar's face behind its hands, and it looks pretty similar to Zenos in terms of facial features. What could this possibly mean? Or is it just a coincidence?
3. I believe we killed the "old" Zenos, and are going to see a new version of him. I think through killing him through our duel, and him still being unsatisfied, it may have led to a change in him-especially since there was so much dynamis in the air. When he turned into Shinryu back in SB, he said "An end to mark a new beginning." This was said by Emet-Selch/Hythlodaeous quite a few times as well in EW, and was one of the many "morals" of the story. By leaving Zenos there with no kind of real conclusion (and new beginning) for him, it completely goes against this moral, and wouldn't make such sense I believe.
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12-18-2021, 04:26 PMnighttimebunny
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12-18-2021, 04:28 PMnighttimebunnySorry that people like to explore characters in depth? You don't have to read it, lol. Also, yes Zenos is very cute UwUQuote:
Originally Posted by MilkieTea
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12-18-2021, 04:32 PMKaliestoQuote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
That I'm not sure right now, the writers are keeping Dalmasca almost under wraps for the moment. -
12-18-2021, 04:40 PMElysidelphi1. Yes, Zenos could use that path opened by Meteion and ride the light of the stars again, or he could also use that other Ragnarok that is located in that area (Ultima Thule) and that connects back to the Ragnarok in Old Sharlayan. Or he could turn back into Shinryu and just fly back to the star since dragons can just fly through space. Or he could harness and use the power of Dynamis to instantly teleport back home or fly back home or something. I mean, he has a few options.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
2. Wow, they got a picture of Zenos's avatar's face behind its hands? I would LOVE to see that picture. And yes, I am also curious about what it means.
3. Yeah, I hope to god that that duel won't be the last we see of Zenos and that it actually helps him start on a path of redemption. I keep talking to people about Zenos and it seems that quite a few people are sad/dissatisfied with his ending and would like to see him back for a redemption story.
And good point to emphasise what Zenos said in Stormblood "An end to mark a new beginning". And yes, both Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus hope to meet again, Emet-Selch says something like "Let the final curtain fall upon this star, so it rises again and we will all have new parts to play." I hope that means that we will see Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus again, as well as Hermes/Amon/Fandaniel, Elidibus, Lahabrea, maybe even Meteion, maybe even Venat, the other Ascians/members of the Convocation...and definitely Zenos. And since he said "new parts", maybe, hopefully, that's a clue/hint that Zenos as well will play a new part, different from what he has done until now, meaning that he will no longer want to just fight us, he will want more, maybe to join us in our adventures. -
12-18-2021, 04:46 PMKaliesto
I'm not sure if Zenos can be redeemed, that guy destroyed so many people directly or indirectly.
Zenos would be extremely hated by everyone. -
12-18-2021, 04:51 PMnighttimebunny
Here it is, along with some other thoughts-this is not mine, but EgoCollective's on Reddit
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...p8CwxWehk/edit -
12-18-2021, 04:53 PMElysidelphiAnyone can be redeemed if they want/seek redemption and work for it. With good writing, it can be done. Zenos is not the worst villain in FFXIV. Arguably, Emet-Selch has done a lot more harm than Zenos and yet Emet-Selch is adored and beloved by the fans/playerbase, having found redemption in the hearts of many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliesto
Zenos wouldn't be hated by everyone. There are still many countries/continents on the star we have not even explored (like Emet-Selch said) that have not even been affected much/at all by Zenos, the people there wouldn't hate him. So no, not everyone. And even with those who would hate him, with proper writing/development, Zenos could earn his redemption.
From A Realm Reborn all the way to Shadowbringers, the Ascians were hated and disliked by many, considered flat characters, boring, annoying, etc. That was 6 years. 6 long years of the Ascians have no redeemable qualities about them, no depth, etc. Then Shadowbringers changed it all for them. The exact same can be done for Zenos. -
12-18-2021, 04:56 PMElysidelphiWow, thank you so much for this link! Much food for thought, must read and analyse the hell out of it now, haha! Thank you so much!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
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12-18-2021, 05:03 PMnighttimebunny
No problem! It's really a great read! I'm curious if anything stands out for you from it :D
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12-18-2021, 05:09 PMKaliestoQuote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
I'm highly suspecting Zenos wants to do something with the World of Darkness (if the writers are really going to continue Zenos), Denizens of the WoD is one of the last big bads left and have direct connection to the Void.
I think the WoD is highly looked over because of its lesser role in the story, and I don't think Cloud of Darkness has been completely defeated.
If this game is following closely with Classic Tropes of Final Fantasy then the final story of FFXIV (one day in the future) should have something to do with the Void itself. I seen what Yoshi-P is doing here, he has followed a lot of classic recurring story beats throughout each expansion and I wouldn't be surprised if the Void ends up being the final story.
Unless he subverts my own expectations, and pulls something out of his hat. -
12-18-2021, 05:15 PMnighttimebunnyThat's a definite possibility I think, especially with us getting a new job that is so closely related to the void. Maybe Pandemonium will also touch on it? Also we still don't actually know how reapers get their voidsent. Unless I seriously missed something. We saw Zenos jump into the hole in the moon and come out transformed, so who knows?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaliesto
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12-18-2021, 06:38 PMMilkieTeaI mean, there’s exploring characters in depth and there’s ignoring what they’ve done, the harm they’ve caused to the world around them, and the loss they’ve rendered unto people who trusted them - all because you just want them to be ‘redeemed.’ There’s exploring characters in depth and there’s wanting them to be a *different character*.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
For example: Emet-Selch was a horrible person. He was an ‘ends justify the means’ person, and all in the hope of bringing back a person - people - who likely would’ve hated what he became. He became a monster. He didn’t become ‘redeemed,’ by the end; just understandably evil. There was no compensation for the actions he output into the world, because one cannot compensate for the lives lost and suffering wrought through his endeavors to go back to the past. It just became easier to understand.
There’s nothing *to* understand with Zenos, and to try to give him something to understand motivation-wise is to misunderstand his entire character and what it brought to the table. He was senseless violence incarnate. People like that exist and to deny him his end is to fervently deny reality. The sad truth is, much like Emet, his story is OVER.
Dragging it out would warp his character beyond recognition. He can’t be redeemed because, much like Emet, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to compensate for the lives lost due to his actions, and at his VERY HANDS. There’s no depth to this discussion, just pleading for what ultimately amounts to “make him a different person altogether, but also the same!”
He’ll never apologize for his actions, and apologizing for his actions wouldn’t even be enough because it’s not like he just did an “oopsie woopsie!”. He destroyed an entire country in his fervent pursuit of ‘the hunt’. He wrecked lives, he killed people, he had people killed. He did it because he *wanted to*.
Give him his death, at least. It was a fitting end for someone so obsessed with nothing but the thrill of the battle. He died doing what he loved - fighting. And he died at the hands of someone whom he saw as the only person equal and even better than him. He flew to the ends of the universe - not to save you, but to die at your hands. He knew it was either kill or be killed, and that if he killed you then he’d die at the edge of the universe, alone in the emptiness he made for himself. He was FINE with that, if it meant one more battle with you.
Edit: I should probably say this before misconceptions are made - I love Zenos as a character. I think that he’s fairly misunderstood by both people who adore him and people who abhor him. I think that as a character he was what we needed in a game with complex emotions and subplots and people who had motivations coming out the wazoo - he was simple. ‘Small brain. Like fight.’
He caused a lot of damage, perpetuated a war just for the thrill of battle, and hurt way too many people to be redeemed. There are irredeemable people out there and to think otherwise is to be woefully naive. -
12-18-2021, 07:20 PMStriderShinryu
Yeah, I'm not really sure what to make of this need to humanize Zenos either, and it falls back to my original issue in that it's perfectly fine to have a villain who is, in essence, just evil (or raised in a way that males him just evil). That's fine. It's fine that he has all of this back story and has all of the "reasons." But it doesn't make him any less boring of a character or any less of a character that ran out of things to do and be a long time ago. He could have 15 full novels of backstory but he would still be a boring, dead-end of a character that only actively exists to grate against any sort of player choice or player definition of their own WoL.
And as for him being redeemable or not? I mean, given all that he's done and, maybe more importantly, why he's done it, I don't see any reason why he should be redeemed. It doesn't really matter that back in his closet somewhere there's a sad story. -
12-18-2021, 07:40 PMLyth
I think this is a fundamental difference with Warcraft's philospophy.
In Warcraft, they convert previously beloved and lore-important characters into villains and then systematically kill them off as raid bosses until there's nothing left. In Final Fantasy, they take previously hated villains, redeem them, and then bring them back as old friends as part of an ever-expanding cast.
At some point, years from now, you'll probably be fighting the God-King of the New World or somesuch, and then Gaius, Nero, Mini-Omega, the combined host of restless spirits of the Dragonsong War, Ala Mhigo, and Nidhogg made manifest as the War Primal Shinryu (channeled by Zenos), the Convocation of Thirteen feat. Hyth, Shanoa, and Endbirb will all sit down together over popcorn and some light banter to cheer you on. And then they'll all queue up to arm wrestle you after you're done. -
12-18-2021, 08:52 PMElysidelphi
Yes, as a huge fan of Emet-Selch, I agree that what he did was horrible indeed. Yet, I am still a fan of his and he is my favourite FFXIV character, I prefer him over ANY of the Scions. Over any of the good guys. And I am not the only one. Emet-Selch is incredibly popular and beloved and people sympathise with him deeply and consider him redeemed. Just because they are not here in this thread to say so, doesn't mean they don't exist. I constantly hear about how people consider him redeemed and understandable and want to hang out with him and go on adventures together and so on. But they don't feel/think the same about Zenos. This is what boggles my mind. People justify that all the evil that Emet-Selch has done can be understood because his reasoning was love, he did it out of love for his people. And because Zenos doesn't have a similar reason, such as love, they treat him completely differently, even though, in the grand scheme of things, Emet-Selch has done, killed, had killed a lot more people than Zenos. Strictly in terms of evil deeds (without taking into account reasons, motivations, etc.), Emet-Selch has, by far, done a lot more harm than Zenos. Yet, Emet-Selch is adored by the playerbase, he was brought back in a way in Endwalker and both himself and Hythlodaeus hinted at the fact that there might be a new reunion, they may be reborn, and have new parts to play.
Even Meteion did a lot more evil than Zenos, she killed entire stars/planets, entire civilisations, over the course of millenia. We are talking here about billions of lives that Meteion killed. Billions. Zenos's murders do not even come close to Meteion's. But yet again, we hand-wave Meteion's murders, because her reasonins was mercy so somehow that makes it okay and she suddenly deserves forgiveness, and friendship. Because after the fight with Meteion/Endsinger, we do actually forgive her. We take her hand in ours and we become friends. After she killed billions of lives over millenia! Oh, but she did it out of mercy so that makes her redeemable! It only makes her redeemable because the writers wrote her that way. Zenos can be written the same way at some point. If we can forgive, befriend and adore characters like Emet-Selch and Meteion, then we most certainly can do the same for Zenos. But if we want to say that Zenos is such a monster and doesn't deserve any understanding and forgiveness and redemption, then we should be fair and say the exact same about Emet-Selch and Meteion! If we don't, then we are just hypocrites. Plain and simple.
"Edit: I should probably say this before misconceptions are made - I love Zenos as a character. I think that he’s fairly misunderstood by both people who adore him and people who abhor him. I think that as a character he was what we needed in a game with complex emotions and subplots and people who had motivations coming out the wazoo - he was simple. ‘Small brain. Like fight.’"
I strongly disagree. Zenos is shown repeatedly that he is intelligent.
"There are irredeemable people out there and to think otherwise is to be woefully naive."
Yes, there are irredeemable people out there. The ones who outright refuse redemption and change and improvement. Zenos was never properly given a chance at redemption so far. So you can't say he refused it. Like I said many times already in this thread, if you are raised in a certain way and with a certain mentality, then even when you become an adult it is very hard to see another way of life. It takes time and effort and usually help from the outside. Zenos was never given help from the outside to actually start on a redemption journey. The one instance people like to quote is to say that when Zenos was body hopping and he was in the body of a male Elezen, he briefly considered redemption and then immediately rejected it; they like to quote that and say that that means that he's clearly beyond any redemption. I disagree. That was him thinking that to himself and rejecting it fast, without much indepth thought. If it was actually offered to him by someone from the outside, especially the WoL, I don't think he'd reject it just as fast, especially after all the events in Endwalker. Sure, in Stormblood he might have rejected it fast, but after Endwalker, after Alisaie's words, after witnessing the WoL killing both Zodiark and the Endsinger, I think Zenos has learnt some things.
I also disagree with his end. He didn't sound happy or at peace when he died. The way he talked to us after the duel, the words he chose, the questions, his voice, how his voice broke at the end on the word "fulfillment", all of those betray sadness, regret. He didn't sound happy to die. He didn't sound at peace. I've seen/read about characters in books, movies, shows, games who died happily or at peace, even villains, and none of them sounded like Zenos. Hell, even when Amon/Hermes/Fandaniel died after the fight with Zodiark, even Fandaniel sounded more at peace with his death than Zenos did. There was a noticeable difference between the death scenes of Fandaniel and Zenos. Even between Elidibus and Zenos. Zenos did not want to die, of that I am convinced. Simply wanting a fight and knowing that it's kill or be killed doesn't automatically mean that character wants to die; plus that character can change their mind even at the last minute; real life people change their minds all the time. You may think you really want something and when you get it you realise you didn't really want it.
And he was obsessed with fighting because he never knew anything else. He constantly mentions "the void" and "filling the void". Alluding to how empty he feels inside. There is room for him to discover than he enjoys other things as well, not just battles and fights.
I think there's a lot to understand with Zenos, and I will continue to deny this particular end. He deserved more than that and he was more than just "senseless violence incarnate". He was more than just a monster.
If I truly believed that humans can be reduced to monsters and "senseless violence incarnate" and they cannot be redeemed, I would have never chosen a career in psychology, above all, in forensic psychology. So no, I believe that no one is 100% good and no one is 100% evil, and people can change. Including characters. Now, if the writers refuse to change a character, that is their personal choice, but it does not mean that that character is impossible to redeem. It just means the writers were fine with moving on to something else.
I said this before, and I will keep repeating: our current media, movies, shows, series, anime, books, comic books, etc. are filled with villains of all kinds who all get killed/locked away/destroyed in some manner or another. The message is loud and clear: you're evil, you will pay either by your death or destruction or by being locked up forever. We already have that message loud and clear everywhere we look. Even basic children's fairytales have this message.
However, we have very few stories of horrible villains who get to learn from their mistakes, get to atone and get redeemed. And I think we need more stories like this. I think they send a stronger message, yes, even a message of hope, which Endwalker was all about, hope against all odds.
I think that we as the WoL already achieved the impossible, we did incredible things, things even Venat couldn't or wouldn't do. Things even the Ancients couldn't do. We achieved things previously thought of as impossible by the majority. Yet, we the WoL did it. So yes, we the WoL, could even help and redeem someone like Zenos. And that would be a message of hope stronger than what we already have.
Because in real life people are grey, no one is entirely good, no one is entirely evil. In real life there are many people with depression like Zenos, people without friends, people with shitty childhoolds whose parents/families didn't give a crap about them, there are people who are ostracised by society, people considered weird, crazy, horrible, beyond help, there are people who were given up on by the ones they trusted the most, there are people who think of themselves as being the worst and deserving of nothing good, there are people so depressed they have no hope they could ever change and improve and learn a new way of life. For all these people, seeing a character like Zenos get redeemed even against all odds, it would be a message of hope stronger than anything Endwalker and FFXIV has done so far. It would be a message to them that they too can be redeemed, helped, they too can be forgiven and they too can find a friend, at least one friend, who will never give up on them. -
12-18-2021, 09:10 PMElysidelphiThe need to humanise Zenos is there because he is human. He is not a creature that came from another world and has nothing in common with the human species and is thus beyond any and all possible comprehension. He is human.Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderShinryu
There is more to him than just evil. For those who do look at the details and care about the details, those people notice and see that there is more to him than just evil.
He is boring to those who don't read between the lines. And to the impatient people. I am 100% sure the Ascians started being boring from A Realm Reborn all the way to Shadowbringers, where they finally got proper development, especially development that was in your face and you didn't have to read between the lines and put the pieces together. Yeah, it's a fact proven scientifically that today the average attention span of all people is dropping, so people get bored faster than usual; if a villain doesn't get developed fast, then surely it's boring and nothing more can be done with him. It took the writing team 6 years to make the Ascians interesting and give them an in depth story and now people like the Ascians or understand them and consider them cool or interesting. Zenos can be given the same kind of development. Plus his arc doesn't feel/seem nowhere completed. There are tons of unanswered questions about him, as well as many clues and hints related to him. I firmly believe he can do a lot more and I hope to god that they will see the potential he has and bring him back and actually give him proper development.
If you personally dislike/hate Zenos, that's perfectly fine. But there are many people out there who like/love Zenos, who see his potential and who are disappointed, severely disappointed, with his ending and want him back. -
12-18-2021, 09:31 PMElysidelphiThank you again, I'll let you know what I think of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
Until then, there was something else I was wondering. What if Zenos is a sundered soul shard of Venat? Could that be possible?
From what I understood, Venat sundered herself along with all creation, Zodiark included. So what if Zenos is actually a soul shard of Venat, and basically, Venat sort of lives on in Zenos? Is this an insane theory or is it possible?
Because Venat's name means "Hunt" and that's something Zenos loves. Venat is also fond of fighting, of challenges, of adventuring and Zenos does like to fight and have challenges, and he might like adventuring as well. Venat was also one of our closest friends back in the Unsundered World, we got the Seat of Azem from her, she specifically chose us; she might have been our friend first, before we became friends with Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus (after we joined the Convocation) in the Unsundered World. And if this is all true, it might explain why Zenos is so drawn to us, why he considers us his first friend, it might be because we are his first friend in both the Sundered and Unsundered World. It might explain why we are so similar to Zenos as well, in terms of fighting and rising to the challenge; because if he is part of Venat, Venat also used to fight and rise to challenges and be reckless. Meaning that both we and Zenos used to be Azem, the traveller, the adventurer...And omg, Zenos's name change in Endwalker, that "viator" meaning traveller...Could it be a clue that he indeed used to be part of Venat and thus he was Azem before us?
Furthermore, in the Unsundered World, when Venat steps down to let us take the Seat of Azem, she doesn't return to the star/she refuses to die, she chooses to live and mentor us, stay friends with us and she continues travelling and taking care of things, helping and fighting and such. This could also be a clue as to Zenos refusing to die, starting from Stormblood all the way until now, but since he may be just a piece of her (a quite big piece of her 7 times rejoined), he doesn't consciously realise why he keeps coming back from death (at least not until now).
Also, Venat refusing to die after she steps down as Azem is viewed as different/controversial in the Ancient World, she doesn't follow custom. And it is often repeated by people that Venat and the current Azem are both weird/do not fit in/do not follow most customs. This ties in with our current self, with us being the WoL and being different, but it also ties in with Zenos being different, not following customs, not being the prince he had to be, and so on.
Also also, it is said/implied that people who take the Seat of Azem are travellers, they like the freedom of moving about and such. By contrast Zenos was chained to the empire, to the duty of the crown, he was limited in what he could do, always having to put the empire's agenda first; he wasn't free, he didn't feel free. If he is indeed part of Venat/ the old Azem before us, then he would be someone who likes to travel and have the freedom of movement, so being chained to the empire like that would only contribute even more to his depression and his lack of interest in ruling and caring for his people. So this may have been part of the reason why he took over Shinryu and flew around and destroyed stuff back in Stormblood, for both the desire to feel free in flight and also open rebellion to his duties as a prince, that desire for freedom finally, something he thought he may never have until he met us, the WoL, another Azem; and when he flew all the way to the edge of the universe just to find us, he made it sound so casual, so normal "I followed the light of the stars to you", so maybe for him it is indeed normal due to his love for travelling.
Then the lyrics, "wings of hope". Zenos chose the form of the dragon and had wings and flew to find us in the middle of a place filled with despair, but then Meteion sang a song of hope. And while Zenos is apathetic and bored when it comes to everybody else, he is very different when it comes to the WoL, around the WoL he has very strong emotions, so maybe being in that place filled with Dynamis, and hope newly created by Meteion, will affect Zenos as well. Also, the fact that he called us the WoL his mirror. It might be nothing, it might be minor or it might be huge. If he is indeed part of the original Venat, the mirror part would work perfectly.
The name Venat means "hunt". The name "viator" means traveller. Both are Roman. Not Greek like Hades or Hermes but Roman. Is it all just a coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.
I wonder... -
12-18-2021, 10:00 PMRosenstrauchIn order for this to be true, Venat would have had to die and be reincarnated. Seven of Venat's shards were rejoined with her, same as everyone else. Five of the remaining are either still alive, or reentered the aetherial sea at the time of Hydaelyn's death (assuming all shards of Hydaelyn and Zodiark are bound to the whole), in which case they may reincarnate in the future. The Thirteenth's Venat/Hydaelyn is MIA, but given that the only living things we ever encounter there are Voidsent, I'd wager she's one too. Maybe the Cloud of Darkness is the result of the Thirteenth's fragments of Hydaelyn and Zodiark getting mashed together and becoming a singular being. Who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
But if that's not a compelling enough answer, consider the following: Hythlodaeus, a character defined in part by his incredible ability in perceiving souls, was unable to recognize Zenos as anyone he knew. This, even though he could tell who Amon-in-Asahi's body was at a glance. -
12-18-2021, 10:07 PMElysidelphiSo sorry, I'm quite tired and I couldn't make sense of your reply. Are you saying that it isn't possible that Zenos is a soul shard of Venat? Or are you saying that it is possible?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch
The first part of your answer made me think you were saying it's possible, but the last part of your answer about Hythlodaeus not recognising Zenos's soul made it sound as if it's impossible. -
12-18-2021, 10:23 PMRosenstrauchThat, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
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12-18-2021, 10:29 PMElysidelphiThen what about Venat? She is sundered, right? Because we've always been told about the "3 Unsundered", Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch. There was never talk that there might be other Unsundered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch
So if Venat is sundered, then it stands to reason that her soul shards have been reborn as people on the Source and its reflections, right? So who are they?
Oh and since you mentioned Hythlodaeus not recognising Zenos's soul, do you have any ideas/theories whose soul Zenos inherited? -
12-18-2021, 11:36 PMRosenstrauch
Yes, Venat is sundered. But, and I can not stress this enough: You need to die in order to reincarnate. You can't have your original self and your reincarnation alive at the same time. Each reflection of the Source is possessed of a shard of Zodiark. Each shard of Zodiark is kept in check by a shard of Venat. Each rejoining puts one shard of everyone back together with their Source counterpart, including Venat. So even though seven of her shards are dead, it's in the same sense that Ardbert is dead: They're rejoined with Source!Venat, just like Ardbert is rejoined with us.
As late as the Hydaelyn Trial in Endwalker, Venat is still alive. There's no wiggle room for that.
Look, I get it. Back in Shadowbringers I was half-convinced that Zenos would turn out to be the reincarnation of Hythlodaeus, just because of the dramatic irony of a former beloved friend becoming a doggedly persistent nemesis. But I was also half-convinced Elidibus would turn out to be Hythlodaeus, having taken up the seat after the original sacrificed himself to become Zodiark. Neither of these came to pass: Elidibus turned out to be Zodiark, or at least the most important part of him: His Heart. And Hythlodaeus was among the voluntary sacrifices made to empower Zodiark to halt the Final Days—and was still with Him all the way up to His death in Endwalker.
Given that Zenos had tostealcopy the Echo in order to gain it himself, it's arguable that he's nobody's reincarnation, but instead a new soul altogether. Which, frankly, I like better for his character. Zenos as a self-made man is infinitely more interesting to me than Zenos as some star-crossed destined chosen one. -
12-18-2021, 11:39 PMSaberMaxwell
Wait, when was Venat sundered? Venat, being Hydaelyn's heart, just can very much imagine not being in the blast radius of her own attack. It would also be counterintuitive to sunder herself, no?
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12-19-2021, 01:11 AMElysidelphi
So, I really, really must post this in here as I feel that it is extremely relevant to this topic.
I want to thank Nighttimebunny for posting the link and drawing my attention to it, and I also want to thank EgoCollective's on Reddit for writing this beautiful, in-depth post.
All the credit for this particular post goes to EgoCollective's on Reddit.
I only want to share their work with the rest of you.
I also highly, highly recommend that you use the link and read the post for yourself as I won't be able to post/quote everything.
Here is the link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...p8CwxWehk/edit
"Thoughts about Zenos
As the title may imply, I am of two minds as to whether we are going to get him back. I’d say there is a rather good chance for some reasons, but other reasons have me questioning this and in this text block I hope to write out pretty much all the arguments I have for both theories. I want to try and approach this not as a Zenos enjoyer but as someone who is well versed in the lore of FF, FFXIV, and with literary tools in general, and hope that rather than making any specific argument I can present information needed for others to formulate their own informed opinion, however my bias should also be clear here.
Arguments for “Rebirth”
This should be considered a compiled ‘argument’ for ‘rebirth’ of some form. This is not to give a definitive as to ‘when’ this will happen nor in what form (Another shard, his void avatar, etc). I will say here, that if Zenos is reborn it cannot nor will it be as an antagonist in the way we’ve seen him. If he is to be an antagonist, he will need an entirely new motive (Which I feel will basically be a new character). If he is to keep remnants of his current motive, it can only be as an anti hero or reluctant partner.
First I will start with a literary arguments for why his story is not over and where he would fit into the literary work:
1. We do not have anyone that fills the ‘antihero’ role. The closest we really come is Fordola, and even she doesn’t really fit. People may point to Estinien, but he has many of the traits of a conventional hero, and lacks those of a traditional antihero. Being antisocial does not make you an antihero. An antihero traditionally performs noble actions but without noble reasons. This would fit Zenos and already defines what he did at the end of Endwalker. This is why Zenos would fit this role where no one else currently does.
2. It goes against the entire theme of the Endwalker expansion to leave Zenos alone in the cold and doesn’t even work as a cautionary tale. Let me explain. The entire point of Endwalker is hope, escape from despair and forgiveness. Leaving someone alone at the edge of the universe flies in the face of all of this. You could say that this is a cautionary tale based on what Alisiae said to Zenos, specifically that if he did not make the connections, he would be left alone with no one wanting to deal with him. That’s well and good, but a cautionary tale must teach a lesson, and that really doesn’t work here. We know Zenos is largely the way he is based on childhood neglect, actual mental trauma/depression/anhedonia, and very likely actual experimentation, even if the WoL/Scions do not know this. Secondly, not ten seconds before the last scene in Endwalker, our Scions are telling actual robots who were built for and enacted multiple planetary genocides that it was “not their place to judge [The Omicrons]” and that they could simply “change” and become different. Then we go on to help them in the post credits. If those robots can change, everyone can. Our WoL is known to give pretty much everyone multiple chances at Redemption. More over, Zenos was changing after Alisiae spoke to him. He was starting to become introspective, he bargained with Krile rather than using his usual means (hatred and physical force) to get what he wanted. He offered us help, he changed from wanting his moment and his sole pleasure to wanting to grant our moment and the single pleasure I have to share. Where the first time he died blissful, sure of feeling something ‘real’ and in a state of ‘transcendence’, his second death was doubtful, introspective, confused, and incomplete. Even his last words were incomplete. In an expansion whose entire theme is ‘hope’, why damn one specific character, put up a hand and say “No, not you.” ?
Next, I will make a pragmatic argument that is basically this: You don’t give the guy an entire rework, CGI art, a significant part in the trailers, a card on the Key Characters page, and merchandise space if you don’t plan on using the character more than you already did. If you’re admitting that he is some sort of ‘fan favorite’ as his addition to Dissedia aside Y’shtola would suggest, then I’d argue that the level of his inclusion was actually a step back from Stormblood if this is all you planned to do with him given the below:
So! lets get into the crux of the reasoning for this. Mainly, we have to admit two things:
1. Square Enix/the writers for FFXIV rarely if ever like to let a character or a mystery go to waste.
2. Zenos has had none of his associated mysteries and odd connections/loose ends answered, and, in fact, has had more added since Stormblood and Shadowbringers.
Since we are using the ‘mysteries’ surrounding the character as the crux of the argument for, let me recap what we have in the order that they appeared:
1. “...Not to mention an invaluable test subject” - This is something that Elidibus stated to Varis after his son ‘died’ in Stormblood. While this could refer to the Resonant, we know for a fact now that that knowledge survived and was used in Bozja and elsewhere. If the Resonant can be applied to others, it does not make Zenos invaluable, even if he is further along in the Resonant than other subjects. So why is he ‘an invaluable test subject?”
2. “I have always dreamed of it. The city, nay, the entire world ablaze” - In the post Shadowbringers patches, it is revealed that Zenos has had dreams of the Final Days, presumably since childhood. Oddly, some have noted that Zenos’ and Venat walk similar paths. I will let you decide:
Zenos - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5TxlTSV7rE&t=7325s
Venat - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwTcMt6k8FQ
3. “[Aside] Could Emet-Selch have found a way? …Precious few have memories of the Final Days” - After Fandaniel hears Zenos’ recant the fact that he dreams of the Final Days, he said this. This, like the above is never elaborated upon.
It’s not simply that they dropped the plot line and hoped we’d forget. The first cutscene inunless Endwalker that has Zenos in it directly references it.
4. Yoshi P , in interviews, told us to ‘pay special attention’ to Zenos’ reaper avatar, and said that while the Hydaelyn Zodiark Saga does not depend on it there ‘could be a reason’ for the class change. His exact words were:
“It’s not really the case that we wanted Reaper to have a big role in the story, or have a big impact in the story, but it might be that there is some reason why Zenos has gone down that path,” Yoshida said.
“So of course, since Zenos is a Reaper, he would obviously be using an avatar,” he continued. “Zeno’s only friend is the Warrior of Light so in that respect maybe his avatar is some sort of variation of our Warrior of Light. (laughing) But please be sure to, I haven’t put it clearly here, look forward to seeing what happens with Zenos.” (NME: https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news...walker-3068718)
He mentions this a second time in the Zepla interview:
[Translation]: “But of course this time around in the expansion its not the Warrior of Light who is taking on that job, its Zenos. You know Zenos the reaper. So that means he must have an avatar. Hmmm, I would like you to focus on just what or …yeah or what is my avatar. Well he might finally have a second friend.
Now this could refer to Zenos literally taking the WoL’s body as an ‘avatar’ but I don’t think that lines up with the context of what is being said. This to me feels more “Ive got friends on the other side” so I did take a literal closer look at the Avatar and this is what I found.
Now let’s see if we can peek under those eyes (Which should be noted are not the Avatar’s own hands, but someone else’s/a different part of the model)
While I can’t be certain I feel very confident that this avatar is Zenos after a fashion. The facial structure, nose, hair and eyes are almost spot on. Either way, the reason that Yoshi P mentioned above is never mentioned in game. We hardly see the avatar well enough in cutscenes to ‘get a closer look’, and his reason is never mentioned in the game beyond a single cutscene where he says something after the Zodiark fight about searching for a power mightier than Shinyru. Was this the power of the Void?
5. Tied in with the above, on the moon, there is a single text dialogue box I’d like to focus on. It is when Zenos is first seen in his ‘full’ reaper form, though he is blurred by a red light:
Notice that the text box says simply “Zenos”. This is the first and only time in this expansion that this happens, but it is not the first time we’ve seen this. The other time we’ve seen this is when it was not Zenos but Elidibus in Zenos’ body, indicating that the character we were speaking with was not necessarily Zenos. Now, while the dialogue here seems Very Zenosish, it can be implying that Zenos is at the very least sharing control with some other entity
CORRECTION: There is technically a second time in this expansion that this happens. Which is when he is possessing/in control of Shinryu
This is odd , because in Stormblood when he was possessing Shinryu, he was still Zenos yae Galvus, and it is not a text box UI choice because in the final duty he is back to being Zenos viator Galvus….so…is he really saying We, WoL and he? Hmm. The more I consider this text the more I don't believe he's referring to the endsinger at all. He read never hunting that…. So who is we if the person fleeing is the WoL……..
6. When we return from the moon and speak to Lucia in Garlemald, we learn that Zenos has been given a new name to indicate that he is an enemy of the state. Now, they could have drawn from a number of words and titles from actual Roman legions/history to indicate ‘exile, betrayer, defector’ etc. They went with viator. Viator has a very specific meaning in Latin, which is Traveler, and Zenos is the only person to receive this title. Gaius , who is believed to have killed Varis, did not receive this title. Maxima, who defected to the Eorzean side, did not receive it. Lucia herself, who was a defected spy, did not receive it; Only Zenos. As we all know, Traveler has a very important connotation in this game as the Seat of Azem. This is never explained or mentioned in detail.
7. After the End scene, it is left unclear if Zenos, in fact, helped us escape. There are two dialogue options and quests that leave this somewhat open ended. The first is Urianger’s dialogue.
It is mentioned briefly that the Scions did not cause this; they were waiting on you to follow Meteion. This had to have come from someone within the realm of Dynamis, thus it is left open ended if the prayer was yourself (The WoL) or another (Who could have only been Zenos). Those are the only two options.
The final duty at least implies that you are both utilizing dynamis in this space and that it reacts to your fervent desires.
Secondly, There is the Omicron quest for the expert dungeon, “Where no Loporrit has gone before” Here is the pertinent dialogue:
I’ve checked, and no where in G’raha’s words to “Sir” was the specific command “Live” given. Also, during the fight with the Endsinger, there was no specific command “Live” from the Scions. Finally, Meteor did not specify that either, only that the way was going to be opened up. This, like the above, is therefore left to interpretation in that it could have been your wish or another’s. The reason some make the argument that it was Zenos is the significance of the word that calls back to his Stormblood mantra “Endure, Survive, Live”. More interesting:, Hydaelyn and Krile before you depart tell you to endure, Thancred’s word to breathe life into Ultima Thule is survive, and this command was live. At the very least it is an interesting literary throwback.
In summation, we have a good 6 mysteries and 1 purposefully vague ending surrounding Zenos that have not been explained up to and until the time of death." -
12-19-2021, 01:24 AMElysidelphi
Continuing...
"Arguments Against:
Arguments against Zenos coming back mostly have to do with implications and guesses as to what may occur in the writing room. First, it is known that Japanese audiences love Zenos while Western audiences are very polarized about him. Some love him and some despise him.
With that the largest argument is that Zenos already returned from the dead once and doing so again in the same form or fashion may cheapen a character who is already on such ‘thin ice’ with a large portion of the player base. The writers may take this into account.
Similarly, the scene did include a ‘death exhale’ and the journal at the end sounds rather ‘complete’
It could be that the writers seem to have believed they offered him a ‘satisfactory closure’ in that he got what he wanted (I question the logic of giving basically an addict his fix and then leaving him to die but hey) , but I would then argue to the above. Why not just leave him dead in Stormblood where he was happier in his death? If this is truly it and none of the questions are answered, you would leave many fans asking what the point of him coming back at all was, since it cannot really be disputed that he was a B plot within Endwalker regardless of how the trailers hyped him up.
A second potential argument is how well the Endwalker scene lines up with his short story, The Hunt Begins. They are basically poetic book ends, which would speak to finality. From The Hunt Begins:
"And he settled into bed, he prayed as earnestly as a boy of his years might that one day he would cross paths with a worthy foe and feel such exhilaration as the heroic epics promised. And then, with a sigh, he closed his eyes and knew the soundest sleep he had ever known."
This does not 100% have to mean death, but literary book ends often do tie up this way, and honestly this is probably the strongest argument for leaving him dead that I have.
The other potential argument to leave him there is that the writers themselves were undecided or there was some dispute over what to do with the character. Concernedly, this already happened once with the Garlemald plot lines as a whole. We saw this with Bozja ending the way it did and the writer stating rather coldly that the plotline was over. It ended before it felt ‘ready’. Furthermore, we don’t see anything but the barest mention of Nerva yae Galvus OR Titus yae Galvus in Garlemald even after doing all the Side quests. It could be that someone or a group of someones in the writing room really did not want to deal with Garlemald anymore, nor its Crown Prince. I have seen speculation stating that Ishikawa specifically did not want to write Zenos into the story because he was not a character she created, but that Yoshi P specifically likes him a lot so there was some discrepancy there, but I saw absolutely no evidence to this point.
The last argument against bringing him back or bringing him back in current form or right now is power creep. We needed to be rid of Zenos In his current form right now because of the ‘soft reset’ the team is speculated to have in mind as the WoL, as Azem, travel to the places Emet-Selch mentioned. Since the story is likely to be more localized and less world ending, it would not make sense to have this all powerful being on either side during these story phases. However, my counter argument potentially for that is that it does nothing to relieve our own power creep as being more powerful than Zenos. Furthermore, as the only other person (besides Emet) actively realizing we are at the core, an adventurer, it would make the most logical sense to have him along for the ride in some sense. Maybe that’s just wishful thinking…
That’s..really the only arguments I can think of against bringing him back. There is no in story reason not to resolve the mysteries that he would need to be alive in some form (Again, different shard, Void avatar, etc) to resolve. The only arguments not to is because the fans don’t like it, or the writers don’t like it, or they wrote themselves into a corner and need to relieve power creep. I would be very interested in knowing which changes Yoshi P had to make in the last two weeks and if they affected the end. However, it is said they have 1-2 years in advance planned for the story at all times.
With that said, I will leave you with one last interesting tidbit from a Japanese interview from Yoshi P from May 2021, and let you decide. I would hope that the game’s story was finished by then…but who knows. It could be that we will never see what the original intent was..or it could be baseless worry. Here it is:
When asked in this game.watch interview about 6.1 and beyond, Yoshi P Said:
Of course, I have a plan for what kind of story to draw after 6.1, and who will play a central role in adventuring with the warrior of light. However, how to deliver it to everyone depends on the tension of the "Akatsuki Finale". In other words, as one of the players, when I played the game, I had this kind of emotion, so I haven't experienced how to deliver this kind of delivery from 6.1, so I developed a little more. I think that various ideas will come out and decide if it progresses.
(Source https://game.watch.impress.co.jp/doc...w/1324782.html)
PART 2: Reaper Questline Points of Interest
In this section of the document, I will be writing interesting things I’ve learned in reading and searching through the Reaper quest dialogue chains and journal entries . These will have to do with Garlemald as well as Zenos and the Reaper and be in no order, just interesting tidbits as I find them:
So did Zenos just do what I like to call the “River Tam” thing where he watched the talent and then learned it? Who helped him contact the Void? Amon/Fandaniel? Or did the Void come to him?
This whole bit here is just amazing. I’m assuming Solus basically showed himself as Hades and gave the Trainer’s grandpop a good old scare. Could Zenos be aware of this?
This is important. The void creature struck when the man was his weakest. I feel like this is setting us up for what will happen to Zenos post Endwalker. If this is the case we have two options
a. Antagonist “Zenos” , but not. Basically using his voice and appearance but it’s not him and/or
b. The above, but with the added bonus of Zenos’ spirit hanging around somewhere in some form. Either way in order for the character to fufill all of its outlying mysteries and not get boring, I believe we need to eventually hit the Anti Hero angle, or else it’s just going to get old fast.
5. So here is the other interesting possibility. Rather than taking possession of his flesh, the void sent could have taken the hit for him. Why it would do this rather than possession is beyond me. They don’t explain why here either.
This is all I have from the Reaper questline."
Again, the link for all of the above is:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...p8CwxWehk/edit
From EgoCollective's on Reddit.
Thank you also to Nighttimebunny for showing me this link. It's extremely well written and makes some excellent points.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
PS: EgoCollective's from Reddit, if by some miracle you happen across this thread and these words, I would LOVE to talk to you about Zenos. -
12-19-2021, 02:55 AMnighttimebunny
Sorry, just a quick little correction, their name is EgoCollective, I think I did a typo last night on accident. :P
I was so happy reading their small essay, it makes so many amazing points.
I really enjoy this quote from Yoshida: "Of course, I have a plan for what kind of story to draw after 6.1, and who will play a central role in adventuring with the warrior of light. However, how to deliver it to everyone depends on the tension of the "Akatsuki Finale". In other words, as one of the players, when I played the game, I had this kind of emotion, so I haven't experienced how to deliver this kind of delivery from 6.1, so I developed a little more. I think that various ideas will come out and decide if it progresses."
But can you tell me what Akatuski Finale means? Is that Endwalker as a whole, or the very last part of Endwalker? I really think he's hinting at Zenos being an antihero in 6.1+ here, so I am extremely hopeful! -
12-19-2021, 03:08 AMElysidelphiThank you again so, so much for sharing that link with me. I loved reading it, it's so well-written and it gives me hope that Zenos will be back. Thank you so much!Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
As for what "Akatsuki Finale" means, I Googled it and it seems to mean "The end of the Moon". So it could either mean the whole expansion or just the finale. It's anyone's guess. Personally, I'd interpret it as the finale of the expansion, but I may be wrong.
I would be so SO happy if Zenos came back and became an antihero! I would cry tears of joy, literally. And I mean Zenos, not his body used by somebody else.
Oh, something else I started wondering about... How come the Japanese audiences seem to love Zenos but the Western audiences are so divided about him? Why this huge difference? -
12-19-2021, 03:41 AMYianKutku"Akatsuki no Finale" (暁のフィナーレ) is just the Japanese title for Endwalker. "Akatsuki" means "dawn", like in "Scions of the Seventh Dawn".Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttimebunny
It's also part of the "cycle of the day" theme that YoshiP has pointed out in the Fanfest and Live Letters: apart from ARR being simply "Eorzea Reborn", Heavensward was "Blue Skies of Ishgard" (representing daytime), Stormblood was "Crimson Liberators" (representing the red of sunset), Shadowbringers was "Jet Black Villains" (representing the black of night), and now Endwalker is "Finale of the Dawn" (representing the new day dawning). -
12-19-2021, 07:11 AMst0ut717
No let that asshat stay dead. finally
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12-19-2021, 03:59 PMAneshdaQuote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
Elidibus said in the end of the Credits, this Place never change. We woke him up in the present and i am sure he went from that back to the past. Or how would he know us in the past? I think that Elidibus cares / sees it as his Duty to care about those who he gave a second chance. Fandaniel (Amon), was someone like that. Even after Emet-Selch gave Amon the Seat of Fandaniel, Elidibus cared about him, we don't know why. And i think since he gave Zenos a second chance, he will take care of him again. Maybe just for Emet Selch since it is family. -
12-19-2021, 04:18 PMAneshdaZenos told the WoL that he found out that Strengh comes not from the Body, it is from Soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by NyannCat
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12-19-2021, 04:51 PMElysidelphiVery interesting take! I love how it shows that maybe Elidibus is so caring and giving others second chances. He does sound like someone who would be so caring, even from his voice when he says certain things, as well as his crying...Hmm...Now that I think about it...When Lahabrea and Emet-Selch died, neither one cried. But Elidibus cried. So maybe he is more sensitive than the others, more soft-hearted and more inclined to forgive and give second chances to others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneshda
Why do you say that Elidibus gave Zenos a second chance? -
12-19-2021, 04:52 PMElysidelphiAnd that's true, good point!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneshda
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12-19-2021, 07:45 PMNatarumaOh my word, NO. I vehemently hope they don't make the WoL suddenly hug Zenos and sing Kumbaya with him by the fire, I'd HATE that. Not everyone wants to see this pile of excrement be represented as anything other than DEAD. Zenos was a terribly shallow one-dimensional character and a mwahaha twist-my-moustache predictable villain from A to Z. His childhood trauma does not excuse his assholism in adulthood in the least. "Uwu daddy issues" doesn't cut it, I'm afraid, furthermore it sounds like a poor crutch to explain away the disgusting garbage of a person he was and the atrocious apathy he held towards anything other than stroking his hardon for the WoL's sword. The convenient "tragic backstory" trope is a terrible excuse for a genuinely shit person's shittyness. My representation of the WoL hated him with a burning passion. I tried to pick the snarkiest response lines whenever I had a vaguely nasty option to pick to address him. Honestly the only thing that would have made EW better for me was if the WoL had gotten an option NOT to fight him, where they would just walk away from him denying his sick raging hardon for a dog fight. Personally, I found his character (the little there was of it) extremely unlikable, nor was there any meaningful development of his character in the game that would ingratiate him to me in any way, shape, or form.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysidelphi
I unfortunately don't think we've seen the last of him, as we never get to see his aether dissipating following his supposed death, which makes me groan so hard because he's the last character I'd ever want to see again in any narrative capacity, hell I'll even excuse a lame reincarnation of Minfilia over this garbage. I'm going to be rolling my eyes SO HARD that they'll scrape the bottom of my brains if he pops back up in future. Narratively, bringing him back at this point would just be the biggest groanfest. He had his time in the limelight, it's time for him to just... Go away. I can at least hope he goes away for good. Or maybe there's some way to take out a restraining order against him, maybe I can do some research in Sharlayan about it. -
12-19-2021, 10:25 PMMagiusNecros
Zenos lies motionless still having his voidsent arm intact. A full voidsent possession is not out of the cards given what occurs in the Reaper questline.
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12-19-2021, 10:38 PMShuuli
I don't feel like every mass murderer needs a redemption ark... in real life, serial killers have sometimes very troubled childhood, which we all understand, yet we tend to like to see them behind bars, locked away forever or dead. I just wonder if Zenos was 20% less attractive would fans still want him back cause what else is he really giving to this story?
Or did people forget that he kills for 'joy'? Even if he changes it does not change the fact of how many died by his hand for just the "fun" of it. Even if he would be brought back and all would end he should be locked away forever... so then whats the point of bringing him back? Surely you guys do not want him to be part of our "friend" group, just cause he is sexy? -
12-19-2021, 10:47 PMLihtleita
i could fix hannibal lecter probably
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12-19-2021, 11:35 PMElysidelphi
I explained in great detail why I want Zenos back. And I am not the only one who feels this way. If people don't bother to read what I wrote and decide to interpret it however they please, there is no point in me repeating myself ad infinitum for each and every single person who ignores everything previously said.
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12-20-2021, 12:02 AMMagiusNecrosEverything he kills doesn't even make him happy. Every evil thing he did was to make an Eorzean threat so large that the WoL can't ignore him. Which backfired spectacularly. And he even says as much to Jullus. All for nothing and so much wasted effort. Zenos is amazingly simple and has a Rhino's one track mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuuli
He wants a challenge and only the WoL can provide it to him. Zenos is the Rank #2 in the Feast and WoL is #1. The rest are trash.
Zenos is the epiphany of the Savage raider mindset. Looking for the harder content to clear so he can find something challenging to do. And thus far all content has been beneath him other then Warrior of Light (Unreal).
Meanwhile grandpa Emet Selch gets a free pass despite being responsible for the death of at least 6 reflections. As well as creating Garlemald who waged several wars and is also responsible for so much death. Much more then Zenos ever caused.
And it can be argued that Emet Selch is also responsible for how screwed up Zenos is. As Emet saw anything that was sundered as lesser then him. -
12-20-2021, 12:16 AMElysidelphiThank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros