New summoner is unacceptable

I enjoy how it's only the pro-New SMN posters on this thread dropping slurs and insults, very cool.

Wow, welcome to healer gameplay for the last 4 or so years. I guess now that it's a DPS job suffering from button spam it's a real problem.

I haven't played summoner but I just wanted to comment the following:

It's kind of hilarious to me that the OP posts screenshots of his UI, where he has less keybinds at a higher level than me and then proceeds to shit on tanks for their "simplicity".

Bruh, I'm lvl 54 and I have more keybinds than you, what are you doing? Disregarding half of your abilities?
When you play tank, do you make a macro that uses all your defensive cooldowns in one button? Hint: That's not how you use defensive cooldowns.

Like, I get it, you're frustrated cause your job got changed or something.
But don't shit on another class of jobs for being "simplistic" when you have less keybinds than I do and I'm 26 levels below you. Lmao.

Granted, as a Warrior there are some keybinds I could remove, like Interject. I don't know what the point is of having Interject in terms of PvE, but I still have it keybound because that's what good MMO players do, understand their toolkit and use it when it is relevant to do so. So even if 99% of casted abilities cannot be interjected in PvE, I still have it keybound just in case.

To come back to the topic at hand though, this may actually be the problem with your job. If you aren't using like half or over half your abilities as a job, then there is probably something wrong with your job indeed.
So what should be adressed, is the pointlessness of many abilities in your job?

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It's definitely time for some to step away from the keyboard and relax while we are all waiting on these login queues. Interacting with the affliction warlock crowd in anything but a calm manner is not an effective way to get the point across. For those who do not understand the comparison, Warlock is a WoW class that deals with summoning demons and inflicting poisons. It formed the basis for original SMN but for the past 8 years many believed it was a bad fit for such a longstanding and core class to the FF series.

Now that the class resembles a Final Fantasy Summoner, those who either do not have experience with other Final Fantasy titles or who for whatever reason preferred being a poison mage as opposed to a mage that calls down literal gods are upset. There are also those who mistakenly believe that there should be "simple and complex" classes when in reality what we need is good job design. Something Summoner has been lacking for the past 8 years until recently, now that the rework has occurred. When these players shout down others and demean their abilities or competency it is no wonder why they are largely unsuccessful in wooing over people to their side.

The fact that some of those who still cling to the failed state of old Summoner are still here contributing to such a negative mood speaks volumes about their stance and how contrasting it is with that of the majority of the playerbase, which so far seems to be doing quite fine. I choose to simply speak my mind about things and set the record straight for those who still have an open mind-I know full well that there is no convincing an Affliction Warlock that Summoner is better off as a Summoner with decent controls, with "complexity" being a choice for the player regarding what level of difficulty they wish to pursue in battle content instead of poorly designed controls that are forced upon any who play the class.

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The comparison to WoW is a bit of a dumb angle because, for one, only one of their three specs has anything to do with dots. For two, the dots aren't really what have people upset. It's the fact that the old flavor and rotation was totally removed and replaced with something with a fraction of the complexity and depth. If the new rotation had any actual depth to it, you wouldn't see nearly this level of angst, dots or not. How many jobs need to have their depth destroyed before people are satisfied?

These toxic new summoner mains really are the bees knees. Calling old summoner mains morons and so forth for their jobs getting obliterated, coming from a place of utter selfishness.

Half the time the non-mains want adjustments to jobs they never touch, all for the glint and glam not for the gameplay like all other summoner mains want

I've been thinking, even from a lore perspective this is a loss. Summoners are masters of incorporeal aether. We would drain our enemies of their incorpreal aether (Bio, Miasma, etc) and use it summon primals. This idea is central the entire main story. All we got were in return are lemon, lime and cherry flavored summons. Seriously, we should be summoning alexander or eden or hydaelyn her damn self, not this low tier elemental trash that hasn't been involved in the story since level 50.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Half the time the non-mains want adjustments to jobs they never touch, all for the glint and glam not for the gameplay like all other summoner mains want

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^ This.

90% of the whining about 5.0 SMN was from people who played the job for an hour after watching meme videos and then started complaining non stop. The other 10% was valid complaints about companion AI, clipping, and bugs. So... they just destroyed the job for the people who still aren't going to play it, left all the old bugs untouched, and added new bugs.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I enjoy how it's only the pro-New SMN posters on this thread dropping slurs and insults, very cool.

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The other anti-new Summoner thread in DPS had a bunch of anti-new SMNers dropping slurs and insults. It balances out. Asides, the anti-new Summoners just want company with their misery, and they absolutely hate and despise those who enjoy the new iteration of Summoner.

I agree, Summoner is incredibly boring. Not even doing any of the two EW extremes makes it fun or challenging

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Originally Posted by eva3071

The other anti-new Summoner thread in DPS had a bunch of anti-new SMNers dropping slurs and insults. It balances out. Asides, the anti-new Summoners just want company with their misery, and they absolutely hate and despise those who enjoy the new iteration of Summoner.

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I've been watching that thread as well. I didn't see anything that bad from either side. It's really just this one poster that's being a super rude. Hopefully my reports haven't been in vain.

edit: a few words

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

The comparison to WoW is a bit of a dumb angle because, for one, only one of their three specs has anything to do with dots. For two, the dots aren't really what have people upset. It's the fact that the old flavor and rotation was totally removed and replaced with something with a fraction of the complexity and depth. If the new rotation had any actual depth to it, you wouldn't see nearly this level of angst, dots or not. How many jobs need to have their depth destroyed before people are satisfied?

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Old summoner honestly was not complex it was bloated like it hadn't pooped in a month. It needed addressed and it was. Is the new summoner perfect? Absolutely not I believe it needs tuning maybe even more skills. I am not 90 summoner yet so I with hold final judgements til then. From what I have played of it so far I have enjoyed.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

These toxic new summoner mains really are the bees knees. Calling old summoner mains morons and so forth for their jobs getting obliterated, coming from a place of utter selfishness.

Half the time the non-mains want adjustments to jobs they never touch, all for the glint and glam not for the gameplay like all other summoner mains want

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You are acting as if you were a moron which is why people are calling you a moron.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

These toxic new summoner mains really are the bees knees. Calling old summoner mains morons and so forth for their jobs getting obliterated, coming from a place of utter selfishness.

Half the time the non-mains want adjustments to jobs they never touch, all for the glint and glam not for the gameplay like all other summoner mains want

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I feel this a lot. Most of the time people are just focusing on the fact that egi are pretty now, and how it is a "real" summoner (uh... I still don't feel this tbh), not if the process of managing them is engaging/interesting, what is good about it and what isn't. I get that summoner did have an aesthetic crisis specially if compared to summoners in the rest of the FF universe (although FFXIV has a completely different combat and comparing them is useless... FFXIV summoner will never act like other ff's summoners and that's it). As a healer I often deal with this a lot, people that barely dedicate their time to a class having a strong opinion about it and trying to shut down the ones that actually main the class and often have very different concerns.

I do not get how people thought old smn was bloated. It did have an identity crisis I will give people that.

Though bloated I just did not see it. I think the main reason people are upset is because those that enjoyed smn playstyle before have nothing now. I am glad those that want a more classic smn feel got closer to that. I just wish it did not come at the expense of other else many enjoyed.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I do not get how people thought old smn was bloated. It did have an identity crisis I will give people that.

Though bloated I just did not see it. I think the main reason people are upset is because those that enjoyed smn playstyle before have nothing now. I am glad those that want a more classic smn feel got closer to that. I just wish it did not come at the expense of other else many enjoyed.

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I can understand the complaints. Egi-Assault and Egi-Assault 2 were mostly carbon copy spells that you used to build up Further Ruin. It could have easily been one ability with four charges. Then our dots and aoes were kinda all over the place. You had two dots (Bio, Miasma) one with a cast time and they could be spread around with Bane. Gardua was the aoe summon but ifrit had his dot. Looking at BLM right now. It has its single target DOT, its aoe DOT and some procs. More than good enough. The old summoner wasn't without its flaws but like I've been saying. This new summoner isn't better. The real fun I had with the old summoner was building up for the bahamut/phoenix dps windows. That's just not there anymore.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I enjoy how it's only the pro-New SMN posters on this thread dropping slurs and insults, very cool.

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Toxic casualism in action

What I would have done is...

Combine Egi-Assault 1 and 2 into a single ability. As you leveled it would gain more charges and it would always give you Further Ruin when used. Maybe decouple the ability from our pets and rename it to something else but not necessary.

Get rid of Bio and Miasma. Keep Tri-Diaster but make it one dot that's single target and instant cast with a short cooldown. Dreadwyrm Trance/Phoenix would not refresh Tri-disaster. Keep Bane. Maybe get rid our of pets entirely and readjust Tri-Diaster's potentecy to compensate. Also not necessary.

Energy Siphon/Energy Drain no longer generate Aetherflow. Instead Aetherflow regenerates at specific intervals. Remove the dot requirement for Fester's extra damage.

Get rid of Dreadwyrm Trance and the Dreadwyrm aether cost for Summon Bahamut. Keep the rest of Bahamut and Phoenix the same.

Give us a new summon like Alexander. Have it wreck stuff. Maybe roll with the idea of hard cast times that absolutely melt face.

Damnit. I really want to play that class.

I'm by no means an expert DPS, but I did understand and perform well with old summoner and I'm switching to new SMN as my main this expansion.

With that out of the way honestly the main thing that seems to be lacking with new SMN in my estimation is it feels like I should have more to weave in between GCDs. It feels like this so strongly that I've sifted through my abilities several times looking for that one thing that I must be missing.

I'm still below 86/90 on SMN so no idea if it'll feel better at level cap but overall it doesn't feel *bad* to me, just kind of clunky. I'm used to a really set DPS timeline with BRD, but BRD has the randomness of procs to throw in and I basically think that's what SMN lacks.

SMN is not that bad after lvl 86 IMO

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Originally Posted by Sunako

SMN is not that bad after lvl 86 IMO

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Almost there lol. Finally got past the error 2002 raid boss.

I just hit 90 last night. Summoning the larger sized primals feels awesome.

I love the rework of SMN though there are a few issues I’ve noticed.
When cycling between summons I’m left with a second or two waiting for the next spell or summon to use in rotation.
I wonder if the summons themselves (and ruin IV) being charged to OGCD May help with that.

It does feel awkward summoning the primal and waiting a full GCD to use gemshine or astro flow/Phoenix skill name. (I forgot the name)

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Originally Posted by Zionite

I just hit 90 last night. Summoning the larger sized primals feels awesome.

I love the rework of SMN though there are a few issues I’ve noticed.
When cycling between summons I’m left with a second or two waiting for the next spell or summon to use in rotation.
I wonder if the summons themselves (and ruin IV) being charged to OGCD May help with that.

It does feel awkward summoning the primal and waiting a full GCD to use gemshine or astro flow/Phoenix skill name. (I forgot the name)

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I have felt this way at 80 that the summons feel like they should be an OGCD specially with ruin III only being a 1.5s cast time. Does the 90 Ifrit and Titan have the same janky melee move or do they have a ranged aoe spell? That is something I think should be changed as well.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I have felt this way at 80 that the summons feel like they should be an OGCD specially with ruin III only being a 1.5s cast time. Does the 90 Ifrit and Titan have the same janky melee move or do they have a ranged aoe spell? That is something I think should be changed as well.

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As far as I know they do Hellfire/Earthen Fury/Aerial Blast instead of the egi enkindles.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Toxic casualism in action

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Know whats cute about that between my accounts i have most likely have 5x your playtime so honestly your the casual.


Also its called waiting over 8 years for it to be a real summoner, now it finnaly is after what real summoner fans put up with you want to ruin it.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I have felt this way at 80 that the summons feel like they should be an OGCD specially with ruin III only being a 1.5s cast time. Does the 90 Ifrit and Titan have the same janky melee move or do they have a ranged aoe spell? That is something I think should be changed as well.

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It’s not ranged from what I can tell.

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Originally Posted by FusiaRain

Know whats cute about that between my accounts i have most likely have 5x your playtime so honestly your the casual.


Also its called waiting over 8 years for it to be a real summoner, now it finnaly is after what real summoner fans put up with you want to ruin it.

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Nah, a real summoner would have the bulk of their actions be summoning. What we are doing is casting adjusted versions of ruin 2 and 3 over and over again, while the summons do something meaningful every once in a while.

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Originally Posted by Zionite

It does feel awkward summoning the primal and waiting a full GCD to use gemshine or astro flow/Phoenix skill name. (I forgot the name)

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I find it inconvenient at lower levels as well. I really don't want to speed run the msq to get back my Enery Syphon or to be able to spam ruin again. These are still minor issues though. I can work around them and strategize through the countdown to summon. Maybe that is what some will call a complexity of the job, and some will call bare bones and being clunky.

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Originally Posted by Fyffer

Nah, a real summoner would have the bulk of their actions be summoning. What we are doing is casting adjusted versions of ruin 2 and 3 over and over again, while the summons do something meaningful every once in a while.

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Atleast its closer to that stage now.. They just need to add more summons and a Anima/alexander demi summon with its own cd set outside of the two we got right now. That would trigger 3 more gems for the Shiva,levi,ramuh set

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Originally Posted by Fyffer

Nah, a real summoner would have the bulk of their actions be summoning. What we are doing is casting adjusted versions of ruin 2 and 3 over and over again, while the summons do something meaningful every once in a while.

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Eh, I don't mind damage coming straight from us. It would feel kind of crappy to have the entirety of my kit coming from a separate entity.
I'd rather fight alongside my summons as a team, rather than just throwing ifrit-shaped fireballs at someone.
(which means interacting with/communicating with/supporting those summons, which is a feature we lack now outside of 1 ogcd every minute.)

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As for the summons being ogcd vs gcd, I don't know about that. I think it might throw some things off, (going out of garuda into another summon, would probably need to adjust ruin IV to compensate for it and I just hate ruin IV as a skill right now, etc) and I definitely wouldn't want their damage to be nerfed because of their ogcd status.
I'm still trying to work out what I think would fill what some are feeling as a confusing void, but I'm certain that just indiscriminately increasing the ogcd count is not going to help things all too much. (remember, the CPM is fairly similar to ShB smn. Our hands aren't the things that are being left wanting.) I have a hunch that it might be solved by rethinking carbuncle's role in our kit. But I have to stop having my mind boggled by the MSQ to really start thinking about it. XP

At level 90 new SMN is fantastic. If you are basing your opinion on anything else, get to 90 first. Jobs while leveling are just poor now that they tune the game so tightly for endgame - which is fine IMO.

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Originally Posted by Aerilon

At level 90 new SMN is fantastic. If you are basing your opinion on anything else, get to 90 first. Jobs while leveling are just poor now that they tune the game so tightly for endgame - which is fine IMO.

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No, it's not fine.
The leveling experience is also an important thing and if things feel bad to play, people will drop the game.

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Originally Posted by Riusvell

No, it's not fine.
The leveling experience is also an important thing and if things feel bad to play, people will drop the game.

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Honestly that would be good thing so all jobs can be closer to their past forms in ff.. Dont rlly care much if outsiders that havent played many ffs drop the game.

Thats just how i feel about it

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Originally Posted by FusiaRain

Honestly that would be good thing so all jobs can be closer to their past forms in ff.. Dont rlly care much if outsiders that havent played many ffs drop the game.

Thats just how i feel about it

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Can you please stop with putting irrelevant things in your posts?
Like you've been incredibly hostile towards people who don't share your view and people who aren't fans now as well.

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Originally Posted by Riusvell

Can you please stop with putting irrelevant things in your posts?
Like you've been incredibly hostile towards people who don't share your view and people who aren't fans now as well.

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It is relevent plus there's a thing called domio effectone thing tilts then the entire set falls

Also enjoy 1 out of 15 isnt fan, just like im not fan of linkin park just because i like the song In the end .

Now why is it relevent, begore summoner didnt play the way it should at all it played like a warlock not a summoner.

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Originally Posted by FusiaRain

It is relevent plus there's a thing called domio effectone thing tilts then the entire set falls

Also enjoy 1 out of 15 isnt fan, just like im not fan of linkin park just because i like the song In the end .

Now why is it relevent, begore summoner didnt play the way it should at all it played like a warlock not a summoner.

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I mean, for some this game was their first FF. That still makes them a fan. So what if they only like 1 or 2 FF titles?

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Originally Posted by Riusvell

Can you please stop with putting irrelevant things in your posts?
Like you've been incredibly hostile towards people who don't share your view and people who aren't fans now as well.

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I especially enjoy the incredible lack of spelling and grammar in their posts. Does wonders for their point.

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Originally Posted by FusiaRain

It is relevent plus there's a thing called domio effectone thing tilts then the entire set falls

Also enjoy 1 out of 15 isnt fan, just like im not fan of linkin park just because i like the song In the end .

Now why is it relevent, begore summoner didnt play the way it should at all it played like a warlock not a summoner.

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So we are ignoring the fact that this can function as a gateway to a series that people may like but never have given a chance?

Summoner now feels less than a Summoner. No longer do I feel like my summons are my allies or fight beside me.
There is no connection, they are just there.

Yet every summoner in past FF's that had the summoner class canonically assigned to them had connections with theirs.
There is a disconnect and this isn't the way to go at things. Now we are just an over glorified mage that flings out spells like it's nothing and it happens to be primal flavoured.

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Originally Posted by Riusvell

So we are ignoring the fact that this can function as a gateway to a series that people may like but never have given a chance?

Summoner now feels less than a Summoner. No longer do I feel like my summons are my allies or fight beside me.
There is no connection, they are just there.

Yet every summoner in past FF's that had the summoner class canonically assigned to them had connections with theirs.
There is a disconnect and this isn't the way to go at things. Now we are just an over glorified mage that flings out spells like it's nothing and it happens to be primal flavoured.

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May it yes it may but not at the expensise of long term fans.


Also that is incorrect their sub jobs were typically bound to another yes be it white mage ir black but it still primarly depened on summons only healing, blsck magic on rare occesions.

Also summons never stuck with you until ff10 you would xall them down, then they would fade from battle until recalled

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Originally Posted by FusiaRain

May it yes it may but not at the expensise of long term fans.


Also that is incorrect their sub jobs were typically bound to another yes be it white mage ir black but it still primarly depened on summons only healing, blsck magic on rare occesions.

Also summons never stuck with you until ff10 you would xall them down, then they would fade from battle until recalled

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Yet you call yourself a Final fantasy fan, ignoring the outside of combat things like Rydia's connection with the summons on the moon, the Mist Dragon and how her mother got hurt by Cecil and Kain basically dispelling it.

Or how Ramuh speaks to Garnet about how to move forward, Madeen speaking to Eiko and saving her... whilst being beside her for all her life.
Or how Alexander summons the both of them, asking them for their aid to protect their people. The Summoner race in Final Fantasy 9 had contact with these very beings.
So, what is your argument?

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Originally Posted by FusiaRain

It is relevent plus there's a thing called domio effectone thing tilts then the entire set falls

Also enjoy 1 out of 15 isnt fan, just like im not fan of linkin park just because i like the song In the end .

Now why is it relevent, begore summoner didnt play the way it should at all it played like a warlock not a summoner.

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You have sure mastered the art of mimicking a random thought generator.

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Originally Posted by Riusvell

Yet you call yourself a Final fantasy fan, ignoring the outside of combat things like Rydia's connection with the summons on the moon, the Mist Dragon and how her mother got hurt by Cecil and Kain basically dispelling it.

Or how Ramuh speaks to Garnet about how to move forward, Madeen speaking to Eiko and saving her... whilst being beside her for all her life.
Or how Alexander summons the both of them, asking them for their aid to protect their people. The Summoner race in Final Fantasy 9 had contact with these very beings.
So, what is your argument?

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Lol what does any of that do with the job also since you want to go into that.
Garnet had her summons stolen, Ramuh was going to follow her regardless he was just testing her will. Non of that had to do with her job lol.

Also in the series since only 4 jobs could be picked
Lets look at ff5 if i had butz as a summoner to get white magic I had to sub job it with white mage, same with black mage or blue mage.

Ff6 terras parto summon it would do its moves (*e
terra parents were summons so she got bloodline magic tbh.
Ff7/8 had no jobs so skip.

My point still stands pre ff10 you would spend a large amount of mp it would do hellfire,tital wave, diamond dust then leave the field until recalled.
Now ff14 summon kimd of has blm with elemental change after summon, they use move then fade just like classic ff summons o
Lol