Endwalker Main Scenario Commentary & Feedback

Oh, in case anybody hasn't discovered this, there's new dialogue with Rammbroes in Mor Dhona if you ask about the NOAH Report on Emperor Xande.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Oh, in case anybody hasn't discovered this, there's new dialogue with Rammbroes in Mor Dhona if you ask about the NOAH Report on Emperor Xande.

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Thanks for the tip! There's also a "much-crumpled report page" that I don't recall having seen before, and the contents are bittersweet. More sweet than bitter, now, but I'm sure glad it wasn't there back in 2.5.

Got to the ending a few hours ago. Still processing. Just dropped in to read the last page without looking through everything yet.

Overall feeling: lots of good moments but I did not appreciate the final fight so the whole thing fell a bit flat at the end.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

My other criticism is probably much more subjective, and has to do with what we see in Zone 5:

It is very obvious that almost every Ancient, except for I think Emet-Selch, uses the Elezen rigging. I was immediately dragged out of immersion when I first saw Hythlodaeus and went "by the Twelve what happened to your NECK".

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Emet uses an Elezen model as well – he just has a lot of custom animations/stances and unique outfit to conceal it, so it's harder to notice without having looked up the character model data.

Elezen do move oddly but I've gotten kind of used to it by this time. Well past the "what is wrong with you" and into "Elezen animations strike again".

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Thanks for the tip! There's also a "much-crumpled report page" that I don't recall having seen before, and the contents are bittersweet. More sweet than bitter, now, but I'm sure glad it wasn't there back in 2.5.

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The crumpled report turned up after 5.3, from memory.

Further MSQ thoughts:

Although I stand by my previous comments in regards to thinking that some parts were rushed and other parts a bit convoluted, I consider the portions that take place in Garlemald, Thavnair, Radz-at-Han and Elpis to be some of the best MSQ content in the game to date. I'll need further time to sink my teeth into the side quests, since there's a lot of them.

Between the Reaper storyline and the Garlemald MSQ's, I'm pleased to see that the nuance was handled well and that it was made clear that Garleans have been fighting for survival for quite some time now. I'm curious to see if the Garleans retreat from the frozen wasteland and settle in their original homeland given how frequently it was brought up and name dropped.

I think a genuine effort was made to squeeze as much fan service in as possible for every character brought up even in passing. I can appreciate that and I'm glad that some of the side characters who might have otherwise have been 'one and done' characters showed up again. Sicard being one of the more prominent examples to my liking.

I appreciated the body horror for the monster transformations. I hope we get more stuff along those lines in the future.

As I thought, we're also moving towards seeing our character become an adventurer again. That pleases me and it makes sense given that we have a largely clean slate to work with now. I imagine we'll still see much of Endwalker spent on wrapping up the plot threads established within the expansion itself as well as building up the groundwork for whatever the new storyline happens to be.

Although I would have liked to have seen Hydaelyn and Zodiark team up against the cause of the Final Days and potentially stick around after that fact, I'm glad that they're both gone - having one linger but not the other would not have felt right to me and with the Sundering being revealed as a deliberate act and not an accident, I could not help but see her as an abusive, if well meaning mother figure.

Though as Yoshi-P said, it's a complex situation and a matter of perspective so a lot of people are going to have varied thoughts on pretty much every major event that occurred during Endwalker.

Overall, Labyrinthos ended up being the weakest link for me. It wasn't terrible, though the first portion didn't grip me as much as the first trip to Thavnair did and the second visit to Labyrinthos had a bit too much padding for my liking. Visually, though, the zone is very pleasing. Old Sharlayan, too, is a beautiful city.

*Spoilers*






Was it ever clear what zodiark’s role was that prevented Meteoin from turning the planet into shit? Because that flew over my head abit.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

*Spoilers*






Was it ever clear what zodiark’s role was that prevented Meteoin from turning the planet into shit? Because that flew over my head abit.

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He created a shield of aether around the planet since they saw the issue occurring in areas where aether was the weakest. As well as to be used to jump start the aether since he is a Dark aspected Primal.

Fandanial surmised that Dynamis was seeping into the atmosphere where the celestial aether currents were the most stagnant, so they summoned Zodiark to get that aether flowing again since darkness = activity

I just finished Endwalker yesterday (also did all the side-quests) & today I unlocked & beat the two optional level 90 expert dungeons. Looks like one of them might be setting up one of the Beast Tribe quests for EW?

Anyways, man what an ending, I actually got a little choked up during the final cutscenes (after the credits). What a momentous experience & feeling indeed.
During the cutscene after the final dungeon but before the final trial, for a brief moment I was a little worried that the build up might feel somewhat repetitive to 5.0 finale, but the direction it did end up going was a revelation & completely flabbergasted me.
While ShB perhaps had slightly better pacing, EW was truly an ending of endings, that it drew on so much of what came before in the entire game’s history was truly astonishing & amazing. At the present at least, EW is about equal to ShB for me.

I do have a couple of spoiler related questions/clarifications I wanted to ask (sorry if any have already been addressed earlier in the thread)

One minor quibble, unless I missed something, Zenos’ reoccurring dream of the Final Days (from 5.2) and Fandaniel’s commentary of “Could Emet-Selch have found a way…?” wasn’t ever addressed/explained, correct? I wonder if it’s something that’s being saved to explore later in the future MSQ or side content (like maybe the Pandemonium raids?), or is it just a dropped plot point? If it’s the latter it’s not a huge biggie, but somewhat surprising that something depicted in a voiced cutscene wasn’t at least somewhat followed up on.


My other question is in regards to the status of the inhabitants of Ultima Thule after finishing 6.0: namely, are the inhabitants of UT now actually alive/living for real now?
Because I understood that the areas aren't the actual remnants of the original planets (i.e. stars) that the Meteia encountered in their journey, but rather are recreations of them. And I believe Y'shtola and/or Urianger compare the inhabitants to the shades of the Ancients in Emet-Selch's recreated Amaurot. So wouldn't that mean that like the Ancient shades, they weren't the actual original souls of the dead planets, right? But after Meteion is beat and she restores "life/hope" to the universe, did that turn the inhabitants of Ultima Thule into for-real alive/original souls denizens?

Because the way the game discusses them and the side-quests treat them (after beating 6.0), it appears like they are living beings with souls now. (and from what I understood Meteion collected the dead souls of the planets she had visited and sequestered them away in the dead sun, so that they wouldn't continue to be reincarnated/reborn into potential future new lives, right?)

Or were the inhabitants of UT always alive, & it was only the specific individuals that the Scions had to emotionally overcome in order to progress through the zone (the ones that turned into black birds) that weren't alive and were only recreated shades?

Oh, I also recommend reading this little essay this person wrote on Endwalker and Buddhism, as I had a lot of very similar thoughts when playing and finishing the MSQ.

https://twitter.com/SayaKiyohara/sta...818637316?s=20

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The crumpled report turned up after 5.3, from memory.

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That sounds about right, actually. I apparently just didn't check the NOAH reports again after checking Ramnbroes' other new dialogue. For some reason.

The Source of Limit Break's power

Well that was a sudden important lore drop in the final trial fight being that Limit Break is the power of Dynamis.

This does bring into question just what kind of powers can Dynamis give our characters beyond just Limit Breaks.

Some one like moose or a pre ARR release player correct me if I'm misremembering but wasn't it explained at one point or hinted at pre launch of ARR that the Limit breaks were that but they had to change it due to lore reasons?!

Ie they were giving away something before time? I'm kinda hoping I'm misremembering that from back then.

So, a funny thought came to me. Back in 5.4, right after emerging from the Kobold place, Alphinaud asked/declared "Is that a Garlean tower?".

Given that they were extensions of the primal Anima, created using the desecrated corpse of Varis zos Galvus, Alphinaud was correct in the most disturbingly literal fashion.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

So, a funny thought came to me. Back in 5.4, right after emerging from the Kobold place, Alphinaud asked/declared "Is that a Garlean tower?".

Given that they were extensions of the primal Anima, created using the desecrated corpse of Varis zos Galvus, Alphinaud was correct in the most disturbingly literal fashion.

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Other parts of 5.4 confirmed that the tower does look like it's of Garlean construction, which confused players because to them, it looked more like Mhachi design.

It actually didn't if comparing them close-up, you could tell that the paneling and construction was different if you compared them to the pyramid in Mhach, and getting a better look at the Tower of Zot you could definitely tell that it's bastardized Garlean construction. The meat parts aren't Garlean, of course, but the metal parts look like their work.

Some after thoughts:

With Zodiark's death and all the sacrificed Ancient going back into the aetherial sea, at some point they are going to be reborn, and and likely keep their creation powers since those sacrificed were not really sundered I think. So down the line, you are gonna have a bunch of characters able to act like gods again. It's probably not something the game will explore down the line, but still food for thought.

The whole time shenanigan. G'raha's original timeline is now an oddity, cause if we caused a time loop to happen, then G'raha's future should have never happened in the first place, yet it needed to in order to save the first. Cause if we died in G'raha's timeline, then the time loop wouldn't have happened, and Venat might have never caused the sundering (unless she had already decided on it, even without meeting us).

So I deleted my front page post. I'd started writing it up, but had to stop, and when I re-read it I couldn't get in line with what I was thinking when I started writing.

I'm still not sure I've fully digested the story, even though I finished it a week and a half ago. I'm going to try to write up a review tonight, in this post. It's probably going to be messy. I'm also still sick, but back to work now... and seriously considering phoning it in on this job of mine, and looking for something else. *sigh*

So overall, I very much enjoyed Endwalker. For as much crap as I talk here on the forum, and as combative as I can be about certain characters and plot points and philosophical conundrums brought about by them, I'm not hard to please. The action, excitment, MUSIC, misdirection, and unique tomfoolery was all very much enjoyed. Even if some bits of it(stealth missions) caused veins to bulge in my temples and forehead.

That said, there was a constant feeling where it felt as though the writers themselves were slapping me in the face sort of like, "Yeah, it's happening like this. Deal with it." Elements most strong in this feeling were the almost immediate conflation with the Blessing of Light and the Echo. I guess it was supposed to draw our attention to the fact that we have it, but it seemed to just say that the cast of Scions still don't distinguish between it and the Echo/Resonance... they referred to Fordola and Arenvald as having it when as far as we know, they don't. The time travel for fan service. The nothingburger fake drama that turned out to be every arc in Sharlayan. I could go further into this, but idk, it'll become way too much of a tangent.

Endwalker's misdirection certainly worked on me. By letting me actually be pointed towards Venat on the boat right away, I was primed to think that they might actually go with, "Hydaelyn Bad." Then there was the female voice on the moon after killing Zodiark and Fandaniel(which turned out to be Meteion). So when they brought it back around to the way they decided to portray her, I definitely got some mental whiplash that I'm not quite over. Mainly I guess because they didn't go with, "Hydaelyn Good." They went with, "Hydaelyn is Self-Righteous, but she's also like, 110% RIGHT. Hand wave all your doubts now, feeble willed perfection seeker." Of course, they didn't do that with her character alone, they did it by proxy with the Scions and the theming in Ultima Thule and The Dead Ends. First you get the Scions, namely Y'shtola, saying that, "Well I know Hydaelyn herself said that what she did wasn't right, just necessary, but it's serving noble ends, so she was right." basically. Then you get everything else.

The idea presented half a dozen times that the pursuit of perfection always leads to a dead end or bad end or desire for the end. Of course, the crucial missing piece to counterbalance that is the fact that you could learn more than, "Don't pursue perfection." You could instead learn, "Watch out for these pitfalls." Of course, that would be a much harder story for the writers to tell, because they'd actually have to envision a world that's perfect and then articulate it, and we being imperfect as we are, wouldn't be able to digest it, even if they could write it. So instead they opt to say that what Hydaelyn did was a bold move, directing the course of her entire planet, forcing her personal belief onto everyone via painful soul dispersion. Leaving it to us to question it outside of and beyond the narrative if that's actually bold at all, since it essentially robs the people of their will to choose for themselves their own outcome. I'm sure they're at least aware that she eventually became for the Sundered what Zodiark was for the Unsundered. A font of inspiration and belief, a being to stake your life on. The more she tried to be different, the more she proved herself the same.

Winding back a bit, the intro split session that was expected came to pass typically for Thavnair with a little Fandaniel twist. I like what they did with him. For Sharlayan... I can say I got jebaited yet again. Them laying Labyrinthos out as a big deal but not like... actually a big deal right away really sent me spinning. I still held onto the idea that Hydaelyn was lying in their basement, and that sorta worked out to be true-ish. I wasn't sure if it was going to be the 87~89 arc or the 89~90 arc after we got our wrist slap from the fake drama Forum. Ameliance's segment was welcome. Try as they might to paint Fourchenault as a good dad who just wants what's best for his kids while letting them live their lives didn't land with me. He just felt entirely inconsistent as a character to me. Just a mouthpiece for minor/fake drama.

The Garlemald contingent was pretty dang cool. I was surprised they went with so many side quest characters that have more or less been collecting dust on the shelf. In some ways it was a great idea, because they could have literally done anything they wanted to with those characters, since there's not a lot of strong attachment to them. On the other hand it was bad, because there was little to no attachment to them. Garlemald itself was appropriately bleak, and many of the sidequests and MSQs there presented me with ideas I've seen espoused on our forum come to life. The prideful suicide seemed more or less appropriate for that character. The new model radios preventing Tempering had my head spinning with an idea of an AU where the Garleans form a Scion-like organization and combat primals in teams with their radios. I'm sure the Garlean roleplayers got so much meat this expansion that they were quite happy for the possibilities while simultaneously being appalled at only getting ruins. Babil was cool, and Anima was kind of epic for a dungeon boss. We got more FFIV references. I also certainly would have never predicted that Fandaniel's plan was literally to charge a super laser and shoot Zodiark's prison with it. Also every time Hydaelyn piloted Krile, it made me wonder why she didn't pilot us instead.

So we go to the moon by the way of the Babil teleporter. A long awaited what-if I'd always thought since playing FFIV for the first time finally comes true "10" entries into the series later. Neat! The watcher or whatever on the moon was also not what I expected, nor did I expect the concept crystals he had to just be Zodiark containment logs. Fandaniel proves to be a delight again, fulfilling many a person's wish by fucking over Zenos. Seven times Rejoined Zodiark seemed pretty together, at least physically. I left that trial feeling like my mind was blown, and of course, there was the possibility of, "Hydaelyn Bad" looming form the female voicing, "Finally..."

The Loporrit section slowed things down waaaay too much, especially as someone doing side quests, and this was also when I had queue issues, so it took me an extra day just to get past all of that and move back onto Thavnair Part 2: Frenetic Boogaloo.

Thavnair Part 2 was where all of the feels really hit me. The people of Radz-at-Han fighting for survival, whole families being consumed by despair and turning into Blasphemies. Vrtra at first being unwilling to kill them letting them beat on him, bite him in Vanaspati. The scene at Maya's Well. The baby. I got choked up. This is the only actual part of Endwalker that has any teeth. Of course, sidequests here felt terrible with what had just happened. Doing them all while the sky was still blood red seemed very off for some of them, and I wish they'd let them not appear till post 6.0 final boss. I put off going to that dinner with the Scions for a long time... oh hey another chance to have a Cold One. Gonna need that stiff drink after watching that poor woman get her neck wrenched in the throw like that.

So onwards! Back to the past. Apparently. For Fan Service R Us. And godsdamned is it beautiful. Elpis is gorgeous, and the fan service was staggering. I know most folks are Emet-selch obsessed, but they really fed us a big heaping helping Venat Pie. I actually wasn't pleased to learn that our Azem was her protégé. Hand picked successor or whatever. When that happened, I knew they were going for a heavy handed layer up layer of just how good, right, and farsighted Hydaelyn was going to be. Course we got another yucky time loop, but honestly time travel doesn't bother me at all, so I didn't much care about that. I care more about why the hell didn't Hades summon his Grani and swing him and Hyth out with us. Yes, yes, narrative cohesion, but this "review" is somewhat talking outside of and beyond the narrative. As much as they tried to get away with this jaunt in the past it just begs so many questions. Such as, "If Hermes could create a fleet of Entelechies that could manipulate Dynamis, then why couldn't other Ancients create different Entelechies that could do the same, and then stop her?

Though my favorite thing is that the mystery emotion energy is Dynamis and it's not more powerful than aether, it's quantity over quality, making up 68.3% of the universe according to Hermes. But the fact that they chose the name Dynamis is hilarious to me, an FFXI vet, because that was the dark dream world of Raogrimm's soul, and it was often colloquially referred to as Die-namis by players, due to how easy it was to wipe even large 30+ people groups in its original iteration. So having the apocalypse fueled by it was like a great in joke for me.

Of course, the revelation of this big energy, and all of the plot aspects tied to it, stuff like, "Oh the Sundering was good actually because it lets us manipulate Dynamis unwittingly, and that's how we transcend our limits! -citation needed- causes all sorts of issues with gameplay vs. narrative but also like, narrative vs. narrative. Gameplay wise we never use any new skills that are explicitly Dynamis manipulation. Narrative wise a lot of people are harping on about how if we'd never been sundered then we couldn't manipulate it... but the Unsundered Hermes was able to manipulate it well enough along with creation magicks to create a cast of beings composed primarily of it that could manipulate it willingly and expertly so they could sustain themselves in the sea of stars. I think they didn't really think it through when they conceived it as a part of the story. Oh well, they tried I guess. An attempt was made, and I got a kick out of it.

Actually can't remember the order of events right off hand. Instanced battles as Alisaie and yourself in Garlemald trying to protect the Thavnairian refugees from Final Days phenomenon in front of Fourchenault with a little Zenos panache at the end was kinda cool. Instantly knew what Alisaie said bugged him.

Labyrinthos part 2 was pretty meh. And also riddled with side quests that also seemed to be out place and pace with the MSQ. Feels for Urianger and Moenbryda's parents, a tinge. It's hard to care about the parents of a minor character who was there for a patch and a half, and has been in the grave since 2015. They used her for Urianger character development. I guess that's one way to separate the wheat from the chaff. Oof.
Aetherial Sea dungeon was cool. The character call backs there were more welcome. The Garlean souls in there as the first two bosses were also a nice surprise. Freaking Shiva, wow! Asahi's bit? I don't think he deserved it, honestly.

Ok, so! An 8 player trial with Trusts! Interesting. Dynamic. Epic feeling but boring. I did it with Trusts just to see how it'd be. I lost one of my lives. I was on PLD. Also just weird that Hydaelyn kept a guesstimate epic level of power stored up just for that... which was supposedly a true test to see if we were strong enough to fight Meteion, but like... there's just several disconnects there. I thought the devs were on record saying that Zodiark was stronger than her. Supposedly she Sundered herself too, I thought? Idk. I feel like they really phoned it in with Hydaelyn and really really road the, "She was the better way, deal with it." high that they had built up to by this point and they road it hard. And they also copped out on Tempering. Just an Ascian machination. Not part of original summoning/creation at all. Huh. Then how did they make it be?

Epic spaceship ride quickly devolves into nightmare fuel. Thancred almost pulls off a meaningful sacrifice. My gut actually wrenched because I'd realized what had happened before the story spelled it out for me. But then no one in the story so much as batted an eye really, and Estinien "died" next almost immediately. So I wore a frowny face cause I knew it was about to be fake drama fake death procession for literally everyone, and then Y'shtola flipped me off by mentioning the Azem stone with Hydaelyn's charm which I'd already figured on. Ultima Thule was beautiful though. I enjoyed getting the ideas about trip to Dragonstar/Omega Star nixxed, but at least getting to see more about them. Side quests were more at pace with less of them.

The Ea were mildly interesting, and also made me think either the localizer or the writer for that section watched the episode of X-Files, "Eve." (Exsanguination is a key bead in its beginning).

Fan Service for flowers. It was ok I guess. At this point I was ready for anything, and expected more and more emotional window dressing. Kudos to Emet for calling Hydaelyn's magic filthy.

The real treat was the dungeon though. It had some pretty on the nose real world commentary with the first two sections. Blaming the plague victims for the plague itself etc. Two sides in a war referring to themselves as Freedom Fighters and Peacekeepers lol. The music in The Dead Ends is one of my favorite tracks in the game now. The final civ was more supposed to mirror our Ancients' civ. Tallish robed masked individuals just waiting to be extinguished because their lives were so perfect that existence become synonymous with insipid. A beast with a human face delivers the result. Oh look, it also has wings. *glares at Meteion* Hmmm. Theming.

Final fight, EPIC phew! Riding on Zenos-Ryu, YEEHAW! Dynamis commentary? Not necessarily about the Limit Break. Just might be about how we're opposing her at all. She's not only got like 108 dead planets' worth of info/knowledge/power, but has 12,000 years of torment etc. going on etc.

Final final fight? A TEST OF MY RELFEXES! Actually, stupid easy. I loved it though. It was anime as hell, and it's the truth that there is more to the WoL and the player than just saving the world and being a hero. It also had a smidge of commentary inherent in saying that point blank. Being more than just a hero and even being a hero comes with baggage, baggage like Zenos. He could be dead, but he's probably just having a nap.

10/10 would Endwalk again. My LP is proceeding apace, but limited due to queue issues still, life issues, and trying to get ready/geared up issues for raid issues. Also totally ready to argue ad infinitum about things I'm powerless to change within and beyond but related to the narrative.

More Towers observations, now that I'm going back to level Summoner.

Tower of Babil:

The first two bossess, Barnabas and Dr. Lugae, are obviously references to Final Fantasy IV. Barnabas in particular is a faithful recreation of the original's design, while Dr. Lugae's robotic form is seemingly better adapted to FFXIV's overall Magitek design. A thing I'd like to note about Barnabas, however: If you look at his forehead, you'll see that he has the Garlean Third Eye, meaning just like Inferno and Number #24 from Castrum Abania, he's another Hypertuned experiment. And while attacking Lugae right at the start is also a reference to his dumb behavior in FFIV, lashing out at the man responsible for his transformation with what little will he has left seems probable to me as well.

After defeating Lugae, Alisaie questions whether or not he was Tempered. Regrettably, much like a certain Garlean scientist in Stormblood whose impact long outlived his own appearances, we'll probably never know for certain what his deal was other than "Garlean mad scientist". But I wouldn't be surprised if Lugae was soft implied to be Resonant.

As for Anima/Varis being the final boss... consider the following: The first two bosses are Barnabas and Dr. Lugae. There's a region in Garlemald named the Eblan Rime. And Varis, father to the prince of the region, was turned into a monster against his own will. Zenos is no Edward "Edge" Geraldine, thankfully.

As an aside, the centipede-like spinal constructions all over the place creep me the **** out.

Will do a write up later (not departed for the final zone yet) but there's one thing that has been bugging me

If the teleportation that zenos and fandango did at the end of the second dungeon could be redirected, why couldn't it be redirected out into empty space :P

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Will do a write up later (not departed for the final zone yet) but there's one thing that has been bugging me

If the teleportation that zenos and fandango did at the end of the second dungeon could be redirected, why couldn't it be redirected out into empty space :P

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I assumed it was kind of a gravitational thing. Yes, Hydaelyn could knock them off-course, but she couldn't swing its trajectory so far out that they wouldn't end up on the moon somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Will do a write up later (not departed for the final zone yet) but there's one thing that has been bugging me

If the teleportation that zenos and fandango did at the end of the second dungeon could be redirected, why couldn't it be redirected out into empty space :P

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Given how exhausted Hydaelyn and Krile seemed to be afterwards, redirecting them took no small effort, and I can imagine the further you redirect the more strenuous it becomes. Besides, it wouldn’t kill them either way.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Will do a write up later (not departed for the final zone yet) but there's one thing that has been bugging me

If the teleportation that zenos and fandango did at the end of the second dungeon could be redirected, why couldn't it be redirected out into empty space :P

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Krile-S2 Limitations.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

If the teleportation that zenos and fandango did at the end of the second dungeon could be redirected, why couldn't it be redirected out into empty space :P

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Maybe she did but underestimated Zenos' breaststroke?

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

10 chars..

I actually think unsundered souls might be sundered on death, since Emet splits into 7 little light motes when he dies in ShB. I think he and Hythlo also each split into 7 shards when they go back to the aetherial sea after being revived, but it's a little harder to count them with certainty in that scene due to the color of the sky and the fact that they kind of blend together a bit.

I think it's awfully coincidental and probably deliberate, considering there are 7 shards remaining if you include the Source and the Thirteenth/Void.

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About those two

Emet already died in Shadowbringers so his soul should have already split if that was the case..which means that he should not have been able to use creation magic at the end of Endwalker. So yeah I too believe that we know have a bunch of souls in the lifestreams that are able to use creation magic.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

About those two

Emet already died in Shadowbringers so his soul should have already split if that was the case..which means that he should not have been able to use creation magic at the end of Endwalker. So yeah I too believe that we know have a bunch of souls in the lifestreams that are able to use creation magic.

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I believe the implications were that once dead and back in the lifestream, souls do not immediately dissolve. Especially on the way to Hydaelyn, we encountered several souls that have been dead for a good while now (obviously not sure how much in universe time has passed, but certainly souls have been lingering there that we encountered in 2.0 at the very least).

Regarding those two, we don't know is probably the best answer here. We're not sure they actually split into 7 parts, and if so, there's just no information on if we reformed the 7 parts, pulled pieces or even created a "primal" version of them. We just don't know.

Eventually though as Montichaigne said souls “are reduced to pure aether, coalesce with that of others, and create souls anew”, in addition to staying whole and returning to the corporeal world through reincarnation (the prime example being that of the WoL).

I really liked how Montichaigne argued that both processes are at work in the Aetherial Sea/Lifestream, as it allows for both traditional reincarnation to occur but also allows for entirely new original souls to be born as well.


As for whether the Souls inside Zodiark had been sundered along with him or not, the devs may or may not choose to further follow up on that, but I don’t think it’s super important if they do or don’t. Also I presume killing the sundered Zodiark on the Source also ends up destroying the literal missing other pieces of Zodiark in the other shards I guess? Or do those other pieces still exist in their respective shards?

Anyways even if there are unsundered souls now existing in the Aetherial Sea/Lifestream, I wouldn’t expect to see new individuals born with the power of creation magicks, at least from a Doylistic narrative perspective expectation.

Endwalker was truly a phenomenal, hauntingly beautiful story, but I’m really having trouble stomaching how poorly Zenos was handled.

His development was shafted in just about every way, and I’m puzzled why the writers gave him so many loose threads after Stormblood that ultimately lead to nothing - his dreaming of Amaurot, Elidibus calling him an invaluable test subject, and Fandaniel wondering “Could Emet-Selch have found a way…?” in regards to his dreams…none of this addressed. There was incredible potential for him to be one of the most compelling characters in this story, but he served as more of a footnote than anything else.

What’s most frustrating is that we’re never, ever allowed to show Zenos a modicum of sympathy (which is especially gut-wrenching if you’ve read this canon short story, which really should have been shown/mentioned in-game before his death.) He was instrumental in our fight against The Endsinger, and we can’t even thank him. We just…abandon his body to the edge of the universe. What does that mean for his soul? Did it endure once more due to his Resonant abilities, or was he somehow perma-killed? And if it’s the latter, does he get to return home to Etheirys’ aetherial sea for an opportunity to try again, or is he just drifting out there in the dark expanse? He got exactly what he wanted in the end, but the fate of his soul may be even unkinder than that of Amon’s, who wrought significantly more damage.

Old villains who have done equal harm (or more!) are treated with much more grace by the narrative, particularly if they help the WoL at some point. Even before knowing Fandaniel as Hermes, the game implores us to try to understand him via that exchange with Estinien pre-EW. Why is Zenos not afforded the same courtesy? If we weren’t going to approach him in such a way, particularly with all of his loose threads, he should have stayed dead after Stormblood.

I shared these thoughts on my twitter, and got a few replies that were essentially, "there's no way we're done with Zenos, yet - he's coming back for sure." and while that wouldn't make any sense whatsoever with the finality expressed during that fight, I can't help but hope the same thing because of how badly he was bungled in a story that otherwise flawless. ...I want to teach him there's more to live for. :(

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

10 chars..

I actually think unsundered souls might be sundered on death, since Emet splits into 7 little light motes when he dies in ShB. I think he and Hythlo also each split into 7 shards when they go back to the aetherial sea after being revived, but it's a little harder to count them with certainty in that scene due to the color of the sky and the fact that they kind of blend together a bit.

I think it's awfully coincidental and probably deliberate, considering there are 7 shards remaining if you include the Source and the Thirteenth/Void.

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10 chars, reply

The sundering only happened once when Hydaelyn did the first one, if the sundering still took effect after, then wouldn't the Rejoining be pointless in the first place? Since it would just split back souls again when the person dies.

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Originally Posted by dragonflie

10 chars, reply

The sundering only happened once when Hydaelyn did the first one, if the sundering still took effect after, then wouldn't the Rejoining be pointless in the first place? Since it would just split back souls again when the person dies.

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If the sundering does indeed automatically apply to Unsundered Souls after death, that wouldn’t make the Rejoinings pointless, as the rejoined shards still would no longer exist to be sundered into. So in this hypothetical scenario, if an Unsundered soul died during the 3rd Astral Age, it would split into 11 pieces while if happened in the 7th Astral Age it only splits into 7 seven pieces (with the Source piece presumably being denser than the others).

Of course the number of Unsundered Souls that even exist, that we know definitely existed post-Sundering were Lahabrea, Elidibus, and Emet-Selch. Whether Venat and the souls inside Zodiark were sundered or not is still somewhat ambiguously defined. So it’s not like that hypothetical scenario could ever really be tested.
Though if I were to state my current interpretation based on my present understanding, I think Venat and the Souls inside Zodiark count as Unsundered.


As for Zenos, while don’t think he will come back to life again. I don’t necessarily think that means the unanswered plot threads (e.g. his reoccurring dream of Amaurot and the Final Days, Fandaniel’s “Could Emet-Selch have found a way…?” comment, etc.) surrounding him will go unanswered/unexplored. Stuff about a character can still be further explored even after death.

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Originally Posted by Theozilla

Re. inhabitants of the final zone

My other question is in regards to the status of the inhabitants of Ultima Thule after finishing 6.0: namely, are the inhabitants of UT now actually alive/living for real now?
Because I understood that the areas aren't the actual remnants of the original planets (i.e. stars) that the Meteia encountered in their journey, but rather are recreations of them. And I believe Y'shtola and/or Urianger compare the inhabitants to the shades of the Ancients in Emet-Selch's recreated Amaurot. So wouldn't that mean that like the Ancient shades, they weren't the actual original souls of the dead planets, right? But after Meteion is beat and she restores "life/hope" to the universe, did that turn the inhabitants of Ultima Thule into for-real alive/original souls denizens?

Because the way the game discusses them and the side-quests treat them (after beating 6.0), it appears like they are living beings with souls now. (and from what I understood Meteion collected the dead souls of the planets she had visited and sequestered them away in the dead sun, so that they wouldn't continue to be reincarnated/reborn into potential future new lives, right?)

Or were the inhabitants of UT always alive, & it was only the specific individuals that the Scions had to emotionally overcome in order to progress through the zone (the ones that turned into black birds) that weren't alive and were only recreated shades?

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An explanation I've seen elsewhere that makes sense:

The inhabitants are initially recreated memories, as explained to us while we're exploring, but that changes when we summon Emet and Hyth and they work their magic to allow us to reclaim the other Scions' souls. This (according to the theory) flooded the whole zone with aether, replacing the dynamis that originally gave it form – so the Scions' aether is no longer needed to do the same job – and this seems to have affected the inhabitants as well. It has given them physical aether-based forms and they seem to have broken out of the frozen state they were trapped in.

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Originally Posted by dragonflie

On timelines:

The whole time shenanigan. G'raha's original timeline is now an oddity, cause if we caused a time loop to happen, then G'raha's future should have never happened in the first place, yet it needed to in order to save the first. Cause if we died in G'raha's timeline, then the time loop wouldn't have happened, and Venat might have never caused the sundering (unless she had already decided on it, even without meeting us).

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What do you mean, I seem to have a pet subject...?

G'raha's timeline has always been an oddity because it contrasted with the Alexander plot before it, which indicates that time loops are the standard outcome of time travel shenanigans and G'raha's successful "breaking out" is inconsistent.

My own theory is that the split specifically happened because he altered the past in a way that could not be reconciled with his original future, so the timeline has to take a second course but the first one can't be shut down.

For everything else, the changes get absorbed into the single original timeline.

The "Elpis time loop" doesn't have anything to do with G'raha's time loop spiral besides that his actions paved the way for the timeline where the Elpis loop is completed.

You don't need one to happen "before" the other can be fulfilled. In the sort of objective whole-of-timeline view of everything that happened over time, they're just separate loops and swirls that link into each other.

We may feel like we "create" time as we live it, but as soon as it's possible to make contact with someone from another point in time, you have to accept that from another person's perspective your future has already happened even though you are in full control of your actions at all times.

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Originally Posted by Vuro

On Zenos's fate:

We just…abandon his body to the edge of the universe. What does that mean for his soul? Did it endure once more due to his Resonant abilities, or was he somehow perma-killed? And if it’s the latter, does he get to return home to Etheirys’ aetherial sea for an opportunity to try again, or is he just drifting out there in the dark expanse? He got exactly what he wanted in the end, but the fate of his soul may be even unkinder than that of Amon’s, who wrought significantly more damage.

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Emet and Hyth were successfully summoned out of Etheirys's Lifestream and talk as if they'll go back there once they dissipate, so presumably (if dead) Zenos would as well.

There's a line somewhere about souls returning to the Lifestream "or joining a larger flow"? Perhaps Etheirys is actually some kind of aetherial centre point for the entire universe and "Silvertear Lake as the source of all aether/magic" (I cant remember which) is not just for the planet itself.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Tower of Babil:

A thing I'd like to note about Barnabas, however: If you look at his forehead, you'll see that he has the Garlean Third Eye, meaning just like Inferno and Number #24 from Castrum Abania, he's another Hypertuned experiment.

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Is he a Frankenstein's monster or a robot? Either way, any fully artificial creation of a human form by a Garlean (be it a statue or a child's drawing or a high-tech robotic abomination) is likely to have the third eye because that's what people are to them, in the same way that the statues on the Azim Steppe are horned Au Ra.

From general context it's likely that, if organic, Barnabas is a hypertuned – but the mere presence of a third eye isn't specific proof of that.

You know what would have been an excellent resolution to a side story problem if it could have been made canon?

Using Alexander to power the Ragnarok. Wake him up, get him to drop Mide and Dayan off in the past to complete their time loop, use up all of his aether before we resort to scavenging the Mothercrystal.

It would also provide an excellent excuse for any strange space-time anomalies like the lampshaded presence of the Ragnarok in both Labyrinthos and Ultima simultaneously.

Of course, there might still be future plans for something to happen with Alexander before Mide and Dayan escape from their eternal moment. Or the writers don't want to lose the option for it anyway.

And actually...

If we can siphon off the energy of the Mothercrystal by draining it into smaller primals, can't we unmake Alexander's core in the same way? Draw them out and destroy or repurpose them, Eden-style.

Further thoughts

Anima being reduced to a dungeon boss was disappointing... but they kept her, or him in this instance, true to the spirit of the original while also twisting it around to fit Zenos' villainous intentions.

Zodiark is pretty damn ugly for the Ancients' "god / will of the star," but I love how they're faithfully recreating Amano's artwork for such big characters as him and Hydaelyn in 3D models.

The one part where the story dragged was Labyrinthos - the proper, second visit. "World's ending, better send a bunch of people on expeditions and manually ship stuff, over sea, while we philosophize with rabbit folk from the moon." It didn't bother me too much though, because the loporrits are both adorable and wise.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

You know what would have been an excellent resolution to a side story problem if it could have been made canon?

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I like the idea, although I do think it would've been nonviable.

Remember that Alexander is ultimately optional content, and if you never touch it, then to your story, Alexander barely exists. So if the solution to powering the ship is Alexander, but you haven't done Alexander... what do you even see, does it even work as a payoff?

That said, I did find Alexander as a story to be surprisingly thin on the ground in references, which was surprising to me for how popular it is. Personally, if I were doing a bit of a punch-up on the story, that'd actually be how I'd save the problem of Labyrinthos dragging; have the Illuminati recur as a minor foe to add some action to the proceedings. If there's any group that'd have some fun reasons to mess with a spaceship and/or artificial habitation, it'd be the Illuminati.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

An explanation I've seen elsewhere that makes sense:

The inhabitants are initially recreated memories, as explained to us while we're exploring, but that changes when we summon Emet and Hyth and they work their magic to allow us to reclaim the other Scions' souls. This (according to the theory) flooded the whole zone with aether, replacing the dynamis that originally gave it form – so the Scions' aether is no longer needed to do the same job – and this seems to have affected the inhabitants as well. It has given them physical aether-based forms and they seem to have broken out of the frozen state they were trapped in.

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So would that mean

the Ultima Thule denizens weren’t composed of souls prior to Emet and Hythlodaeus’ magick and/or Meteoin’s defeat and the dead sun spilling out the souls it had had trapped inside it?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

What do you mean, I seem to have a pet subject...?

G'raha's timeline has always been an oddity because it contrasted with the Alexander plot before it, which indicates that time loops are the standard outcome of time travel shenanigans and G'raha's successful "breaking out" is inconsistent.

My own theory is that the split specifically happened because he altered the past in a way that could not be reconciled with his original future, so the timeline has to take a second course but the first one can't be shut down.

For everything else, the changes get absorbed into the single original timeline.

The "Elpis time loop" doesn't have anything to do with G'raha's time loop spiral besides that his actions paved the way for the timeline where the Elpis loop is completed.

You don't need one to happen "before" the other can be fulfilled. In the sort of objective whole-of-timeline view of everything that happened over time, they're just separate loops and swirls that link into each other.

We may feel like we "create" time as we live it, but as soon as it's possible to make contact with someone from another point in time, you have to accept that from another person's perspective your future has already happened even though you are in full control of your actions at all times.

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Wouldn’t it just be simpler to just accept that Alexander and Endwalker causal loop time travel while G’raha Tia in ShadowBringers does multiverse-theory (a la Future Trunks in DBZ) time travel. And therefore just assume that Exarch!G’raha’s timeline had a slightly different history even before the 8th Umbral Calamity?

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Originally Posted by Theozilla

So would that mean

the Ultima Thule denizens weren’t composed of souls prior to Emet and Hythlodaeus’ magick and/or Meteoin’s defeat and the dead sun spilling out the souls it had had trapped inside it?

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Spoooodles

Endsinger mentions how the souls inside her writhe and rage so I would say that’s likely.

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Originally Posted by Theozilla

Wouldn’t it just be simpler to just accept that Alexander and Endwalker causal loop time travel while G’raha Tia in ShadowBringers does multiverse-theory (a la Future Trunks in DBZ) time travel. And therefore just assume that Exarch!G’raha’s timeline had a slightly different history even before the 8th Umbral Calamity?

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That is basically what I "accept" already, though? G'raha's actions bring about a multiverse-style splitting of timelines despite all other examples so far resulting in causal loops in a single timeline. (Though I am not familiar enough with DBZ to know how that timeline originated exactly.)

The key thing is, there was only one timeline until the events of Shadowbringers caused it to diverge into one path that leads to the Eighth Calamity and a second path that does not. The second path could not have formed if G'raha did not come back from the future of the first path, but now they are simply equal paths for history to take.

I feel like it's something that is actually quite simple but in a way that is hard to explain, especially if people have a fundamentally different concept of how time works.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That is basically what I "accept" already, though? G'raha's actions bring about a multiverse-style splitting of timelines despite all other examples so far resulting in causal loops in a single timeline. (Though I am not familiar enough with DBZ to know how that timeline originated exactly.)

The key thing is, there was only one timeline until the events of Shadowbringers caused it to diverge into one path that leads to the Eighth Calamity and a second path that does not. The second path could not have formed if G'raha did not come back from the future of the first path, but now they are simply equal paths for history to take.

I feel like it's something that is actually quite simple but in a way that is hard to explain, especially if people have a fundamentally different concept of how time works.

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Oh well, I was under the impression that there was frustration that FFXIV has two different types of time travel existing within the same narrative.
Also Exarch!G’raha’s original timeline doesn’t just diverge from the new one (our main timeline) in regards to the future. Because of Endwalker, Exarch!G’raha’s timeline also has to have a slightly different past as well since it never had its WoL travel back in time to do a causal loop, because the WoL was dead (and the 8th Umbral Calamity occurred instead of the second Final Days occurring), so therefore the Hydaelyn of that timeline still sundered the original world even without having met the WoL in Elpis.

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Originally Posted by Theozilla

Because of Endwalker, Exarch!G’raha’s timeline also has to have a slightly different past as well since it never had its WoL travel back in time to do a causal loop, because the WoL was dead

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This is where things get really wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey but very simple if you have the right picture in mind.

Our "other self" from the Eighth Calamity timeline does not need to travel back in time at all, and in fact would confuse things for our side of the time divergence if they did. The time loop only happens on our side.

Although the starting point for our time travel trip is after the two timelines diverge, our destination is before the split. What we do there affects "the past of both timelines simultaneously" because they aren't separate things yet.

Therefore it is our presence in Elpis, and ours alone, that is experienced and remembered by the people there.

(Or to look at it another way, if our other self somehow did make it to Elpis prior to their untimely demise, they would be arriving in the same Elpis that we visited ourselves. There is no alternate version of those events.)

About the last zone, the post MSQ dungeon and the side quests there

So I have finally finished all the side quests and done the two new LVL90 dungeons. And I am completely confused...

So in one dungeon we stopped the production of more weapons and after that we know plan to start a cafe in the last zone...

This is just something that I dont understand. Arent all of those beings in the last zone reconstructions of death people that Meteion met? Why do we fear the reproduction of more weapons if those robots are not even real or alive? Why would we built a cafe there?

Also the side quests made it feel like those are not just reconstructions but souls..yet Ysthola also mentioned in the main story that we fell for this act and that we should remember that they are not real.

Can someone explain this to me? @_@

About the role quest (Dancer)

I loved this one. Not only do we at least see Hien again but his actions with Yotsuyu do have consequences. I always could not believe how easily the people of Doma seemingly accepted that Tsuyu was able to run around after all Yotsuyu has done to the people. Seeing that they did harbor some very bad feelings towards their own king for that was great because you cant just get rid of all these negative feelings that fast.

Still I loved his idea at the end and cried some tears. The battle was awesome too and I loved the part Gosetsu played.

I cant help though to feel even worse when they pray for the souls to find rest...the WoL knows that there is nothing left...how much must that hurt?

About reaper

I just started that job and it just feels strange story wise. So we totally just made a contract with a voidsend and bascially collect souls to use as attacks...I know that we already did the souls part with the relic quests (which I also did not like) but we are going around using souls as batteries while we are also shocked that nothing is left of ones soul after turning into a beast...

I dont know if they explain it a bit more later but I just headcanon it now that we are only using some left overs of the souls and not the whole thing..otherwise we are just bascially destroying other peoples and animals chances at being reborn...

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Originally Posted by Alleo

So I have finally finished all the side quests and done the two new LVL90 dungeons. And I am completely confused...

So in one dungeon we stopped the production of more weapons and after that we know plan to start a cafe in the last zone...

This is just something that I dont understand. Arent all of those beings in the last zone reconstructions of death people that Meteion met? Why do we fear the reproduction of more weapons if those robots are not even real or alive? Why would we built a cafe there?

Also the side quests made it feel like those are not just reconstructions but souls..yet Ysthola also mentioned in the main story that we fell for this act and that we should remember that they are not real.

Can someone explain this to me? @_@

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A few thoughts on that dungeon.

Its my understanding that Meteion was gathering souls there as a source for her dynamis and when we arrive its Thancred's will bending the dynamis to create everything there. The question becomes, how accurate, how thorough, was everything recreated? Ysthola warns us that these are effectively illusions, souls with no aether, but that doesn't make them less real; get in a fight with one and it will hurt you. By a similar token, we have the soul of Sir, and possibly a great many of the race, but do we have all of them? The Omicrons spanned multiple worlds and while they are sentient, are all machines on their world sentient? Are their factories sentient? Its shown during the MSQ that things were created well enough to mimic electricity and wireless communication. My interpretation was that regardless if the soul of Sigma was there, we were sending a communication to somewhere else to change what the factories were doing on some far away planet. If we hadn't, then eventually we'd have a horde of drone missiles coming towards Etheirys.

As for the cafe...the lopporits didn't get the memo that these things aren't real so they're treating them like a new race they've met. And its probably a set up for the beast tribe quests later.

My feels and thoughts after the raids:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...id-Spoilers%29

Still leveling Summoner as opposed to touching the new raid—and got to see how the tank trusts handle the level 87 dungeon.

Of course Emet-Selch would be a faux Dark Knight. It's arguably even more fitting for him than Black Mage, lol. Tempted to swap over to Scholar—which I have no idea how to play—just to check out Venat as a faux Paladin.

I'll probably get to the raid questline sooner or later. Though I think I saw a new thread up for that, so I'll be putting my thoughts there instead, I guess.