6.0 Story Speculations

I could perhaps see Sharlayan Isle being a zone with Sharlayan the attached city, much in the same way as Lakeland and The Crystarium.

In the keynote they said that the role quests were going to take place in the larger city, and since they'll start at 80 I think it's likely that we'll be going to this city very early on (if the way the role quests worked in SHB was any indication).

I also think that if the Scions are going to be for the most part retired at the end of 6.0 to make way for new stories, which I fully expect, it only makes sense to go there now while we're still travelling with them, as it'd be our last real chance to explore their backstories and the lore associated with their time there.

I think there have been more than enough hints in 5.3 (Archon bread), 5.4 (the conversation with Alisaie in Azys Lla) and now 5.5 (Krile's departure) that Sharlayan is coming, and I fully expect it.

We'll likely get to the main city fairly quickly yeah. HW and SHB we got there almost immediately, and even Kugane we get there pretty quickly after doing the level 61 dungeon. So whether the new city is Sharlyan or something else, I expect we'll have access to it pretty quickly. If anything i could see Thavnair potentially taking a while as the 'endgame hub city' and while we had full access to RR pretty quickly, Idylshire and Eulmore we didn't until later in their expansions.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

This has been my worry ever since they announced all of this. They’re introducing a looooot of things and areas and i’m really hoping it doesn’t turn into split expansion stormblood 2.0. Or i at least hope the Hydy Zodi arc is given enough time(if we go to sharlayan i can’t even imagine what kind of family squabbles we’d have to waste time with).

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People keep bringing up this "split expansion" idea, but it's very flawed. The issue in Stormblood was that the narrative was not only split between Ala Mhigo and Doma, but that the pacing made it so that the Ala Mhigo portion itself was bookending the huge stretch of Far Eastern stuff. Things just begin to heat up in Ala Mhigo when you're forced to suddenly restart the story in Kugane, after which there's a full arc with a climax, and then you go back to Ala Mhigo to start over again and rush to the final final climax.

Consider this - In Shadowbringers, each of the zones in Norvrandt are basically separate from each other. They're all self-contained aside from dealing with the overarching worldwide issue of the Sin Eaters. It seems to me that in Endwalker it's exactly the same, with the issue here being the Final Days. Stopping that will be the thread that connects the journey between each area.

Additionally, another failing of Stormblood was it's zones and the pacing therein. The Gyr Abanian zones are all way too similar to each other. Ruby Sea is an abysmally bad zone that feels as though half it's plot (Sui-no-Sato) was cut and slapped back in as optional content. Practically every zone repeats the same story of working with the locals to try to get them to unite against the Empire - Only the Azim Steppe really stood out, and that was because it had a unique culture and characters beyond "downtrodden villagers".

Basically, I don't think Endwalker cutting between several different locations will be a problem so long as it's properly paced.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Basically, I don't think Endwalker cutting between several different locations will be a problem so long as it's properly paced.

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The pacing is the big part yeah, that’s what a lot of people are worried about, if it’ll be paced correctly. It’s not only that but also they have a lot of things to cover based on each specific zone they’ve shown so far.

There IS a chance that 6.0 will have one of its cities be less relevant for the 6.0 "finale" story and is added to prepare/tease for the 6.1 "new season" story. However, Radz-at-Han seems more fitting for THAT role than Sharlayan, given that one is a center of commerce and is right in the middle of Eorzea and Othard, and while Ilsabard IS also between them, Thavnair has apparently remained neutral enough to host peace talks between the different nations. Plus, as a "small city" Radz-at-Han is also likely to be the endgame hub, so it'd also fitting for us to spend more time there post max-level.

The devs already said Radz-at-Han would be the endgame hub if I remember right.

Typically the main hub city is visited pretty early, so I'm expecting that to continue. Ishgard and the Crystarium are the utter first places visited (after a short trip through a tiny bit of Lakeland in the latter's part), while Kugane is visited after just a short while in Gyr Abania. While it remains unconfirmed, I am now fairly confident the main hub is going to be Sharlayan.

I also recall Yoshi-P stating that as opposed to Shadowbringers' story focus on morality, Endwalker is going for a pure epic feel; as such I'm expecting some globetrotting and less of a focus on the villains antagonists. Both have already stated their goals and motives, and neither have much of an air of mystery to them.

Not sure what to expect on the Moon. While I don't expect lots of IV parallels I am expecting a Lunar Subterrane either as the actual explorable area or as a dungeon, with the Moon's Core (Zodiark's Prison) as the final trial against Zodiark-Zenos.

I have to say it’s interesting to see people think Zodiark will still be the final boss of the arc despite the trailer depicting us as a paladin on the moon...almost like we’re protecting it, while the source glows a dangerous hydaelyn blue...

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I have to say it’s interesting to see people think Zodiark will still be the final boss of the arc despite the trailer depicting us as a paladin on the moon...almost like we’re protecting it, while the source glows a dangerous hydaelyn blue...

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That's just a deliberate FFIV reference where Cecil (who like our old friend Derplander went from DRK to PLD) ends up on the moon as well at the end of the game (and which is where FFIV's final bosses are fought too), it's nothing to do with "protecting the moon" - we're on the moon to destroy Zodiark for good, even SE themselves hint that pretty hard on the main EW site:

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Originally Posted by Final Fantasy XIV Endwalker Promotional Site

Take heart in the faith of those who walk beside you, and journey ever higher─to the very stars above.

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and

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Originally Posted by Final Fantasy XIV Endwalker Promotional Site

Journey to Thavnair, the imperial capital of Garlemald, and even the moon!

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Of course they don't say that "Zodiark is the final boss", but as the moon is Zodiark's literal prison, and the aforementioned FFIV references, it's pretty clear that's who we will ultimately be facing at the finale, and where.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Of course they don't say that "Zodiark is the final boss", but as the moon is Zodiark's literal prison, and the aforementioned FFIV references, it's pretty clear that's who we will ultimately be facing at the finale, and where.

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We're still missing what the Sound was, and also why the Moon did not exist during the Final Days of Amaurot (literally, it's not in the final part of the dungeon). We're likely going to discover what the moon is, and the final boss will likely be a form we don't expect (it'll likely be Zenos though, because ultimate battle).

I'd rather be shooting up bandits with my robot buddy in Borderlands 3, but here I am.

Friendly reminder to those who seem to have forgotten: Zenos' whole plan is to mantle Zodiark the way he did with Shinryu. Consequently, whether Zodiark is "good" or "bad" depending on perspective is, as far as I can figure, a complete nonissue. Further, with his "heart" imprisoned elsewhere (i.e. functionally dead), even if he were made complete again as far as I can figure he'd be either braindead or a mindless, rampaging beast. While Shadowbringers did paint a more benign picture of Zodiark (the threat he poses to mortal life was an extension of the Ascians' will; we don't know what he actually wants or even if he wants) that doesn't mean he's "good" or "on our side." In Zenos' hands his power is without a doubt very bad news bears, and I have little reason to doubt Zenos' plan will come to fruition.

Conversely, Shadowbringers painted Hydaelyn in a more ambiguous light than she'd been before, but that doesn't mean she's a malign force in the world. Her raison d'etre is to keep Zodiark's power in check, including preventing him from consuming extant life as fuel. Telling us a falsified (or rather half-true) account of the origin of her conflict with Zodiark doesn't change that, and she hasn't shown any malicious intent toward the people of the Source or Reflections - on the contrary her whole goal, so far as it's been shown, is to keep them from dying. That doesn't mean she can't do wrong or has never done wrong, but there's been no sign of anything malign coming from her.

There are two important-looking bits in the 5.5 trailer that haven't been touched on yet - the PC meeting the figure of light on Silvertear's shore, and Zenos stating that "[He] will await us on the darkened Moon." I'm expecting both of those to inform a lot of what's going on in 6.0, so I'd strongly suggest waiting for those before deciding who is on what side. I'd also suggest hedging your bets considering, as I remember, Yoshi-P said Endwalker was going to be a more straightforward epic tale.

P.S. "Source glows a dangerous hydaelyn blue?" Pretty sure that's the sun, or if you're talking about in the end the planet being eclipsed by the moon. Either way the trailer opens with an ominous shot of the moon, and near the end associates Zenos with said moon by zooming in on his eye and fading his pupil into it. PLD being on the moon doesn't have any symbolic significance by my reckoning, and it's one of the most straightforwardly heroic and light-associated classes in RPG history. Just... Saiyan.

I'm expecting some manner of twist rather than a one note and rather predictable path for the story to take. Which would be very much in line with Shadowbringers and Stormblood in terms of the story elements that were revealed. I'm not even convinced that either Hydaelyn or Zodiark will be given much focus as anything other than convenient plot devices...and in the event that do get more focus, I'm inclined to think that it'll be in the form of a story resolution that works for different groups of players rather than just one 'side'.

More importantly, though, the full trailer isn't even out yet, nor is the second half of 5.5's MSQ's. I don't think anyone can be certain of anything at this point in time.

It's odd to me that there's so much weight given to traditional JRPG tropes and themes of 'heroism' around these parts and yet one of the biggest - the 'benevolent' deity turning out to be sinister/manipulative is mysteriously a big no go. Personally I think it'd be an excellent way to show that blind faith is a bad thing (as we saw with Ishgard, Garlemald and countless other aspects of the game world). Though I suppose we can all agree to disagree on that front.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I'd rather be shooting up bandits with my robot buddy in Borderlands 3, but here I am.

Friendly reminder to those who seem to have forgotten: Zenos' whole plan is to mantle Zodiark the way he did with Shinryu. Consequently, whether Zodiark is "good" or "bad" depending on perspective is, as far as I can figure, a complete nonissue. Further, with his "heart" imprisoned elsewhere (i.e. functionally dead), even if he were made complete again as far as I can figure he'd be either braindead or a mindless, rampaging beast. While Shadowbringers did paint a more benign picture of Zodiark (the threat he poses to mortal life was an extension of the Ascians' will; we don't know what he actually wants or even if he wants) that doesn't mean he's "good" or "on our side." In Zenos' hands his power is without a doubt very bad news bears, and I have little reason to doubt Zenos' plan will come to fruition.

Conversely, Shadowbringers painted Hydaelyn in a more ambiguous light than she'd been before, but that doesn't mean she's a malign force in the world. Her raison d'etre is to keep Zodiark's power in check, including preventing him from consuming extant life as fuel. Telling us a falsified (or rather half-true) account of the origin of her conflict with Zodiark doesn't change that, and she hasn't shown any malicious intent toward the people of the Source or Reflections - on the contrary her whole goal, so far as it's been shown, is to keep them from dying. That doesn't mean she can't do wrong or has never done wrong, but there's been no sign of anything malign coming from her.
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Preventing him from consuming extant life as fuel? I mean they did that to save the world because he needed the aether to do so. He wasn’t forcing them to give him aether and draining the world. In regards to the heart thing, we literally see Hydaelyn on auto pilot in 5.2 meaning her heart(probably minfilia) is gone and she too is brainless and mindless.As far as showing any malicious intent, that i don’t know but apparently she intended people to forget everything about the past which is pretty suspicious to me. What does she have to hide? There’s been no sign of anything malign from Zodiark either yet people still assume he’s evil lmao. The whole theme right now is remembrance but Yshtola herself says(more discernible in the FR and JP dialogues) that Zodiark must be kept safe so that he isn’t used for any bad intentions. That tied with the paladin shot on the moon i mean cmon(I believe Yoshi P had even commented the inspiration for Paladin wasnt wholly for an ff4 reference as well but something more). It isn’t rocket science lmao. Zenos’ plan may be to mantle Zodiark, but Fandaniel exists. Why would they mantle the primal who is for salvation and not the primal capable of sundering things to non existence?

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

That's just a deliberate FFIV reference where Cecil (who like our old friend Derplander went from DRK to PLD) ends up on the moon as well at the end of the game (and which is where FFIV's final bosses are fought too), it's nothing to do with "protecting the moon" - we're on the moon to destroy Zodiark for good, even SE themselves hint that pretty hard on the main EW site:



and



Of course they don't say that "Zodiark is the final boss", but as the moon is Zodiark's literal prison, and the aforementioned FFIV references, it's pretty clear that's who we will ultimately be facing at the finale, and where.

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Implying they dont ever subvert expectations? Also where at any point did you see we're there to destroy Zodiark for good? Especially when the devs literally said in regards to zodiark and hydy there is not evil there is no good.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

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Recap:

The reason Hydaelyn even exists is because the Convocation was going to feed new life to Zodiark, implicitly including sentients, against their will to resurrect those sacrificed to him during the Final Days and restoring the planet. Either way, it sets a dangerous precedent that (ironically) leads to a stagnant world.

Hydaelyn's "heart" is one Venat, named after the character from XII, whom we've only seen a holographic recording of in Anamnesis Anyder. Hydaelyn has contacted us, but not since the climax of 3.0, and Y'shtola suspects something is preventing her from doing so.

Sundering the world sundered everything on it, including people; this more than likely extends to memories, which if I remember right are heavily implied if not outright stated to be aetherial in nature during the Return to Ivalice series.

I flat out said Zodiark is benign - neither good nor evil. That doesn't mean his powers can't be used for evil ends.

I suggested as much but Zenos stating "[He] will await us on the darkened Moon," in 5.55, strongly implies he's going to get there way before us. If we're supposed to be protecting Zodiark, pretty sure we've already failed. (Zenos can just teleport up there Ascian style, y'know. Can't compete with that.)

All primals exist for "salvation," it's just a matter of what that means to their summoners. Zodiark would be more powerful (he can literally rewrite the laws of reality, at least for the planet) so for the power-obsessed Zenos it's a natural choice. Plus we're already Hydaelyn's chosen; forcing us to go for Zodiark would just make things unnecessarily complicated. He wants his fight and he wants it sooner than later. And being controlled by a mortal, a primal's power doesn't necessarily serve its "intended" purpose.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

forcing us to go for Zodiark would just make things unnecessarily complicated.

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That depends. The game hasn't exactly avoided making many prior plot points more complicated than they arguably needed to be, after all. Just look at the lengthy song and dance that G'raha went through as a more recent example. He didn't simply absorb power during his 'slumber' - he went on a time travel adventure and then ventured to another planet entirely and then came back to the Source.

I'd be very surprised if the finale wasn't similarly intricate and with unexpected twists.

Counterpoint: Hydaelyn is basically a giant katana, so obviously Zenos will mantle her instead.

But seriously Fandaniel asks if Zenos is ready to control "You know what", Hydaelyn is half-dead, and Zodiark is still dead-dead. It's not either of them.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Recap:

The reason Hydaelyn even exists is because the Convocation was going to feed new life to Zodiark, implicitly including sentients, against their will to resurrect those sacrificed to him during the Final Days and restoring the planet. Either way, it sets a dangerous precedent that (ironically) leads to a stagnant world.

Hydaelyn's "heart" is one Venat, named after the character from XII, whom we've only seen a holographic recording of in Anamnesis Anyder. Hydaelyn has contacted us, but not since the climax of 3.0, and Y'shtola suspects something is preventing her from doing so.

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Recap... the hearts can hop out. We saw this with ELidibus. They heavily imply Minfilia was serving as her heart and now shes gone. Right after we see Hydy on auto pilot. You can put two and two together. They were going to do one last set of sacrifices yes, to bring back their loved ones and ensure the safety of the star. Thats still far better than what the sundering did which by the way, has killed more lives than the sacrifices in the long run. Elidibus says in his monologue the loss of memories is as SHE intended and this is while he's alone btw so he isnt lying. Im baffled people think its going to be as clear cut as what Zenos says when 5.55 literally shows us things arent in his control. They're in Fandaniels. Not all primals exist for salvation to the extent Zodiark does. His goal was literally the Salvation of the star and life on it. Zodiark is powerful in raw strength but Hydaelyn sundered him AND is capable of sundering anything period. Idk how forcing us to go to Zodiark is unnecessarily complicated? Seems like people just want things to be clear cut easy and simple. Fun thing about the story is its very complex and Yoshi P himself has said he wants to subvert expectations. This has never been a clear-cut story and it isnt going to be.If anything though, Zenos going after Hydaelyn would be less complicated considering shes literally in the planet he resides at and shes both without a heart and weakened. Ripe for the taking.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Counterpoint: Hydaelyn is basically a giant katana, so obviously Zenos will mantle her instead.

But seriously Fandaniel asks if Zenos is ready to control "You know what", Hydaelyn is half-dead, and Zodiark is still dead-dead. It's not either of them.

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I tend to agree, there's a step here they know that we don't and I feel another Fandaniel's keeping to himself. They did say this'll be a far more straight forward epic fantasy adventure than politics of Stormblood or lore digging and villain understanding of Shadowbrinders, of course they'll be stuff but I don't think it's going to come from where some people think, it's not going to be about Hydaelyn not being "as good as you think/secretly evil" or us having to "protect Zodiark or bring balance" I think the sound got Fandaniel and it's going to come down to him making his true move and then us having to do what the Ancients should have done. They had a good plan, on his own Zodiark was an alright solution at least in the short term, they could have tried to figure out what the sound was, come up with something permeant, but instead they shifted all their focus to trying to have their cake and eat it by getting back all they'd lost, fighting themselves and well, we know how that turned out.
Though given the time constraints with the plot, I wouldn't be surprised if the sound ends up dooming itself, possessing Zodiark or Hydaelyn or both merging them into a new being finally giving itself a physical form, though in doing so gives us the ability to kill it.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Counterpoint: Hydaelyn is basically a giant katana, so obviously Zenos will mantle her instead.

But seriously Fandaniel asks if Zenos is ready to control "You know what", Hydaelyn is half-dead, and Zodiark is still dead-dead. It's not either of them.

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Zodiark isn't "dead". He's been described on multiple occasions as slumbering or dormant, and I can only guess that this whole mess with the towers intends to wake him up considering how the moon is seen glowing unusually bright during the final MSQ battle (And even at present in the ARR zones).

Regardless, I think the "you know what" is probably whatever primal is responsible for the tempering that's been going on with the towers, albeit one that's more primitive in nature considering what little we do know about it. It doesn't seem to be controlling the tempered through anything but sheer force of will, unlike conventional primals that tend to flood their victims' minds with thoughts of them and their ideals.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

I tend to agree, there's a step here they know that we don't and I feel another Fandaniel's keeping to himself. They did say this'll be a far more straight forward epic fantasy adventure than politics of Stormblood or lore digging and villain understanding of Shadowbrinders, of course they'll be stuff but I don't think it's going to come from where some people think, it's not going to be about Hydaelyn not being "as good as you think/secretly evil" or us having to "protect Zodiark or bring balance" I think the sound got Fandaniel and it's going to come down to him making his true move and then us having to do what the Ancients should have done. They had a good plan, on his own Zodiark was an alright solution at least in the short term, they could have tried to figure out what the sound was, come up with something permeant, but instead they shifted all their focus to trying to have their cake and eat it by getting back all they'd lost, fighting themselves and well, we know how that turned out.
Though given the time constraints with the plot, I wouldn't be surprised if the sound ends up dooming itself, possessing Zodiark or Hydaelyn or both merging them into a new being finally giving itself a physical form, though in doing so gives us the ability to kill it.

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WE dont know if Zodiark was a permanent solution though. He couldve been. Our only source otherwise is Venat who seems to be making decisons more out of fear than anything else. I dont see it as having their cake and eating it when we literally did the same thing in the alternate timeline to bring back those we had lost.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

WE dont know if Zodiark was a permanent solution though. He couldve been. Our only source otherwise is Venat who seems to be making decisons more out of fear than anything else. I dont see it as having their cake and eating it when we literally did the same thing in the alternate timeline to bring back those we had lost.

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I'm not saying if he was or wasn't I'm saying if he was, great they had it, if he wasn't they bought themselves time to look for one, but they didn't, they went straight to trying to get back all they'd lost before they'd dealt with the issue.
And we were dead, as for the Ironworks of the 8th, while they had a lot of opposition at first, that shifted heavily once the plan changed to saving us, in addition it's not the same, they wanted to revert history and return everyone, themselves included to an earlier point in time, yes that would change things, some people born after that point would be gone, but given the devastation a lot more would be brought back, so comparable in end goals but not in method or morality.
If time worked how they thought, everything would have just gone back to the divergence point, everyone in the "WoL died" timeline is now gone and their counterparts in the new timeline would continue on unaware of anything.

On the other hand, the Convocation wanted to take this new sentient life and kill it to bring their friends who willingly died to save the planet back.
For the Ironworks plan to equate it would have to have been, "We're saving the WoL, but to power our time tower we need to kill a bunch of people and use their Aether, they also won't come back if we succeed."
Except they didn't, one plan was trying to rewrite history in hopes of a better outcome, everyone was effected equally.
The other wanted to take one set of life, kill it to save another set of life, one group wins, the other loses. Cake and eat it.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

I'm not saying if he was or wasn't I'm saying if he was, great they had it, if he wasn't they bought themselves time to look for one, but they didn't, they went straight to trying to get back all they'd lost before they'd dealt with the issue.
And we were dead, as for the Ironworks of the 8th, while they had a lot of opposition at first, that shifted heavily once the plan changed to saving us, in addition it's not the same, they wanted to revert history and return everyone, themselves included to an earlier point in time, yes that would change things, some people born after that point would be gone, but given the devastation a lot more would be brought back, so comparable in end goals but not in method or morality.
If time worked how they thought, everything would have just gone back to the divergence point, everyone in the "WoL died" timeline is now gone and their counterparts in the new timeline would continue on unaware of anything.

On the other hand, the Convocation wanted to take this new sentient life and kill it to bring their friends who willingly died to save the planet back.
For the Ironworks plan to equate it would have to have been, "We're saving the WoL, but to power our time tower we need to kill a bunch of people and use their Aether, they also won't come back if we succeed."
Except they didn't, one plan was trying to rewrite history in hopes of a better outcome, everyone was effected equally.
The other wanted to take one set of life, kill it to save another set of life, one group wins, the other loses. Cake and eat it.

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I dont remember if they actually confirm it was sentient life or not. If they dont well then this is just assumptions. As for the ironworks comparison though, they were willing of basically erasing their timeline(and the people born in it) to mess with the past and bring us back. The ancients sought to bring their loved ones back in hope of ensuring a better future and to restore things. Same overall concept. People lose in both scenarios but one is subjectively better than the other in that it wouldve prevented the eventual sundering if there wasnt an opposing faction based off of fear.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The ancients sought to bring their loved ones back in hope of ensuring a better future and to restore things.

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How is committing genocide multiple times ensure a better future? What's wrong with the state of the world after Zodiark saved the world and new lives flourishes? The future would be better if the ancients became friends and guardians to the new lives so they could make a better future together

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I dont remember if they actually confirm it was sentient life or not. If they dont well then this is just assumptions. As for the ironworks comparison though, they were willing of basically erasing their timeline(and the people born in it) to mess with the past and bring us back. The ancients sought to bring their loved ones back in hope of ensuring a better future and to restore things. Same overall concept. People lose in both scenarios but one is subjectively better than the other in that it wouldve prevented the eventual sundering if there wasnt an opposing faction based off of fear.

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Hydaelyn was a later development they knew nothing about when making their choice, comparing the two it's still.

Sacrificing life to save other life.
Vs
Changing everyone's future.

The ironworks still had no idea if they'd make things better or worse, but enough people agreed a world with us was worth it and with how things had gone that we'd likely lead to a better outcome. On the other hand the convocation were simply killing newly spawned life to return their own, they were in no immediate danger and these people willingly died to save the world, their society was built of debating and deliberating but they did neither they'd averted disaster at a great cost and they'd now come for an exchange. Those against this questioned if the world shouldn't be left to this new life, that implies they're sentient as they'd need to be if they were to take over the Amaurotine's role, but the convocation just wanted all they'd lost back, again at their core you can compare them as both people suffered a calamity that brought their worlds to the brink, the different however is where these choices were made and why, the 8th timeline was in ruins and wasn't sure if they'd recover or if what they had left was recoverable. the Amaurotines had actually made it past their crisis and had in place a solution, at least for the moment things were stable and the world was on the mend, in that moment they chose to sacrifice new life without giving it the choice to return their loved ones who did have a choice.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

How is committing genocide multiple times ensure a better future? What's wrong with the state of the world after Zodiark saved the world and new lives flourishes? The future would be better if the ancients became friends and guardians to the new lives so they could make a better future together

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That is also a fair point, though we are "told" the sundering made the world unstable most all the damage is Ascian made, the calamites? Ascian. The many wars and strife? Ascian. The loss of the 13th? Ascian the almost flood of the 1st? Ascian. It's easy for them to call us unworthy and all we do is kill each other, when their the ones dropping bombs on one nation then tell the other nation it was that other nation who did it. Of course with free will some people will do horrible things, but it's been revealed that most of the worst sins of the sundered were actually orchestrated or straight up caused by the unsoldered.

It's why Emet's big speech during the end of 5.0 rung hollow for me, while I understood and sympathised with the Emet of 12000 years ago who watch everything he cared about die, but you've been killing, torturing and brining suffering to people for thousands of years, you don't get to talk down to me about being "unworthy"

The Ascians did not immediately seek to rejoin the Sundered worlds and sow chaos. They first attempted to understand the Sundered and live alongside them - but found them wanting due to their behaviour and actions. I'd also assume that alternative methods of restoring the Source to what it once was were pursued but ultimately only the Rejoining plan proved to be something that would work.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The Ascians did not immediately seek to rejoin the Sundered worlds and sow chaos. They first attempted to understand the Sundered and live alongside them - but found them wanting due to their behaviour and actions. I'd also assume that alternative methods of restoring the Source to what it once was were pursued but ultimately only the Rejoining plan proved to be something that would work.

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Which I don't buy, take our world right now, it is far from perfect but if I came from a different world that existed before it, and claimed I could find nothing of value here it's because I didn't want to find anything. Even during Emet's speech he had some people in front of him who proved that "broken" as he believed them to be, the sundered can be good people, seek to do good and follow through, but he pretty much replied with "not good enough" Part of him wanted us to be good enough, but they also wanted their world and loved ones back, so they set a bar we couldn't reach.

Then it returns to, was there even a reason? I've yet to see any of the "instability" they speak of, the world and shards seem to trundle along perfectly fine in their sundered state, all the damage and calamities are done by the Ascians so outside of them wanting their world back, they have no reason to be doing what they're doing. Perhaps they had a leg to stand on back then, morally questionable as that leg was, but after the sundering, they lost any footing they had, it's no longer about killing some "new primordial just spawned life" suddenly you have 13 shards and the source worth of sentient people and their plan involves causing huge amounts of suffering, killing and ultimately the destruction of the shards these people call home, each time the source is rocked with a calamity in addition to all the chaos and strife they cause there. Countless generations will suffer this pain until only those who survived all that on the source remain, and what's their reward? they too will die.

All this because they want their loved ones back, because they want the world back to the way it was for them, because they think it's better that way with the only justification of "You're not like us, so you don't count as life, so I can do what I want to you" They'll have killed 1000 of times what they'll be bringing back. I sympathised with the unsundered, but they lose all of it the moment they started down this path, they're not trying to save the word, they just want something and don't care what they have to do to get it.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

They first attempted to understand the Sundered and live alongside them - but found them wanting due to their behaviour and actions.

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What behaviour and actions would that be? Sounds like cultural differences. If you can't accept them, tolerate them. If you can't tolerate them, at least leave them alone and not kill them.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

How is committing genocide multiple times ensure a better future? What's wrong with the state of the world after Zodiark saved the world and new lives flourishes? The future would be better if the ancients became friends and guardians to the new lives so they could make a better future together

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Uh, well first of all barring the times it was necessary for them to sacrifice for the star to 100% be safe, they had only planned one more sacrifice. You say that for certain, that they could make a better future together but we don’t know the specifics. The sound could have still been there and could’ve risen up again. Idk where you’re getting multiple times from.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

What behaviour and actions would that be? Sounds like cultural differences. If you can't accept them, tolerate them. If you can't tolerate them, at least leave them alone and not kill them.

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The sundered are existing at the expense of their loved ones and family. They’re literally fractured beings of people they knew. It isn’t just cultural differences lmao, it’s abnormal/unnatural and poses a threat to the world as a whole.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Hydaelyn was a later development they knew nothing about when making their choice, comparing the two it's still.

Sacrificing life to save other life.
Vs
Changing everyone's future.

The ironworks still had no idea if they'd make things better or worse, but enough people agreed a world with us was worth it and with how things had gone that we'd likely lead to a better outcome. On the other hand the convocation were simply killing newly spawned life to return their own, they were in no immediate danger and these people willingly died to save the world, their society was built of debating and deliberating but they did neither they'd averted disaster at a great cost and they'd now come for an exchange. Those against this questioned if the world shouldn't be left to this new life, that implies they're sentient as they'd need to be if they were to take over the Amaurotine's role, but the convocation just wanted all they'd lost back, again at their core you can compare them as both people suffered a calamity that brought their worlds to the brink, the different however is where these choices were made and why, the 8th timeline was in ruins and wasn't sure if they'd recover or if what they had left was recoverable. the Amaurotines had actually made it past their crisis and had in place a solution, at least for the moment things were stable and the world was on the mend, in that moment they chose to sacrifice new life without giving it the choice to return their loved ones who did have a choice.

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Changing the future couldn’t sacrificed life though(and arguably did). We don’t know if they were in immediate danger, there were many unknowns at the time.The amaurotines weren’t sure if the danger was gone completely or not either. It’s similar cases for both.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

How is committing genocide multiple times ensure a better future? What's wrong with the state of the world after Zodiark saved the world and new lives flourishes? The future would be better if the ancients became friends and guardians to the new lives so they could make a better future together

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I think the issue at hand is a problem presented in two parts. First, we know the convocation was tempered to Zodiark (Emet gives this evidence in Shadowbringers) and second, Venat and followers had to summon Hydaelyn because Zodiark didn't actually fix the end days, he delayed it so a more permanent solution was needed (as per 5.2).

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I think the issue at hand is a problem presented in two parts. First, we know the convocation was tempered to Zodiark (Emet gives this evidence in Shadowbringers) and second, Venat and followers had to summon Hydaelyn because Zodiark didn't actually fix the end days, he delayed it so a more permanent solution was needed (as per 5.2).

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This is where most of the possibilities I'm working with are, as well.

The first being, we know Hydaelyn's summoners "sacrificed their life energies" to summon Hydaelyn, which in theory may take them off the board for tempering if they're gone and not just temporarily drained. Though, with the Twelve still a big ??? in our background lore, I do wonder if She found a way to bring them back. (If nothing else, as the sundered champions numbering Twelve that history claims to remember Her choosing in several eras.) But it might just be how SE dodges Hydaelyn tempering anybody and then leaving them out in the open. (But then how was there an "Age of the Gods" until the First Umbral Era? Please look forward to it.)

And Venat's "this only delays the inevitable" thing has me wondering which was the bigger threat. If Zodiark was merely as big of a threat as the Final Days once all factors were considered, that makes sundering Him at all costs a devastating sacrifice, no matter how necessary, and it leaves the door open for it to have been one interpretation. I, too, am wondering if it only delayed the Final Days itself. We know that the Final Days caused creation magicks to run amok, so the question is was sundering everyone the only way to stop it?

That opens the door for a lot of going easy on Venat/Hydaelyn if that's what the developers wanted. She "had no choice," she was "just giving life a chance," and, to go full darksteelfoil hat, it might even explain why She didn't want to risk giving people with the Echo enough information they might inadvertently awaken their past identities.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Venat and followers had to summon Hydaelyn because Zodiark didn't actually fix the end days, he delayed it so a more permanent solution was needed (as per 5.2).

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Again though, this isn’t confirmed. This is based on something Venat(already suspicious name) says. She could be lying. My question is how would she know? We see one conversation and people automatically take it as fact lmao.

I'm reminded of this particular nugget from a past lore Q&A session:

https://i.imgur.com/5WlrJW3.png

The Sundering has never really been framed as a good or necessary thing. It could have be an accident or it could have been a deliberate act...we simply do not know.

Again while they said this, outside of Ascian meddling we see no signs of this instability, the shards and the source seems to function perfectly fine, there's not massive disasters or world ending events. So while that may be their intent, until it's shown as of right now, the shards, source and her people only have the Ascian's to blame for slamming shards into them and destroying shards and killing all the people on them.

As for the Sundering, I doubt many would argue on it's own that it's a good thing, but weather it was an accident of their battle or simply how her powers were designed to best him, it created a set of worlds with people on them and they are doing fine, given that the sound didn't just gobble up all the shards and the source, either the sundering, Zodiark, Hydaelyn or some combination of all of it kept it at bay, so outside of the Ascian's wanting their world back, there's no evidence the sundering hurt anything.

And until there is it comes back to who's lives matter more, which is what they showed in 5.0, it was all about perspective, we on the source and shards, like living and would rather not be killed. The Ascians liked their world better, believed their way and life trumps ours and want it back, even if it costs them every living thing on every shard and the source. To us, they were a powerful people who faced a horrible fate, but had their time and should let us have ours, they need to let go. To them, we're a mistake that doesn't even count as life, so all there're doing is correcting a mistake, so long as they can hold this justification nothing they do is really wrong.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Again while they said this, outside of Ascian meddling we see no signs of this instability, the shards and the source seems to function perfectly fine, there's not massive disasters or world ending events. So while that may be their intent, until it's shown as of right now, the shards, source and her people only have the Ascian's to blame for slamming shards into them and destroying shards and killing all the people on them.

As for the Sundering, I doubt many would argue on it's own that it's a good thing, but weather it was an accident of their battle or simply how her powers were designed to best him, it created a set of worlds with people on them and they are doing fine, given that the sound didn't just gobble up all the shards and the source, either the sundering, Zodiark, Hydaelyn or some combination of all of it kept it at bay, so outside of the Ascian's wanting their world back, there's no evidence the sundering hurt anything.

And until there is it comes back to who's lives matter more, which is what they showed in 5.0, it was all about perspective, we on the source and shards, like living and would rather not be killed. The Ascians liked their world better, believed their way and life trumps ours and want it back, even if it costs them every living thing on every shard and the source. To us, they were a powerful people who faced a horrible fate, but had their time and should let us have ours, they need to let go. To them, we're a mistake that doesn't even count as life, so all there're doing is correcting a mistake, so long as they can hold this justification nothing they do is really wrong.

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No evidence that sundering hurt anything? Look at soul density. Look at the difference in potential of the sundered individuals. Their loss of memories of who they once were. The lives ended due to mortal illnesses and age. Are you serious?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

No evidence that sundering hurt anything? Look at soul density. Look at the difference in potential of the sundered individuals. Their loss of memories of who they once were. The lives ended due to mortal illnesses and age. Are you serious?

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That's all perspective, the life that exists now is different life than that of the Ancients, but being different or weaker doesn't mean you are less deserving of life.
Should the Viera wipe out the Hyur and take their lands because they live longer, thus making them more deserving? Should the Garlean's be wiped out due to their inability to use magic?
Just because the races that are alive now are not as hardy or ever lasting as the pervious, makes them no less worthy of life, and they are still capable despite this, the people at the 8th timeline were able to surprise Emet in what they pulled off and in may works of fiction the idea of immortality Vs mortality is often explored where both sides have merit, living forever can be a curse as well as a blessing and while the races of today in 14 grow old, get sick and die, they lay the foundation for those who walk after.

The question was, "Has the sundering caused any instability or harm?" The answers is no, we've been shown no evidence that the sundering itself has caused anything to go wrong, all it did was spllit everything and by extinction weaken everything by a factor of 14, but the 13 shards and the source functioned perfectly fine afterwards, and likely would still be fine had several of them not been destroyed, two of them near irreparably damaged and many calamities visited upon the source.

Which brings us back around to the Ascian's have nothing noble about their goal, they just want their world back, which is totally fine, it's a perfectly acceptable and relatable motivation, they lost their world and they want it back, but they're not "saving" us or the planet it's just plain survival, ours or theirs and we won.

It just me but anyone here think the The Final Day just got delay?

Although some of the morality aspects involved are a matter of perspective, the Sundering itself has - by the writers own words as linked above - been portrayed as a negative act. It made people weaker and fostered more inequality.

For example, most Garleans are unable to manipulate aether altogether and some areas, such as Eorzea, are infused with disproportionate amounts of aether. In turn, this led to more war and strife over resources and opportunities. There is also the element of consent. By Venat's own admission, Venat's group were a minority among the Ancients. Their people had been through so much, with countless losses in the form of willing sacrifices and the demise of those who perished in the Final Days.

Yet rather than be granted the opportunity to remember their fallen and spend time with what loved ones remained...the Sundering forcibly separated them. Imagine being forcibly separated from a spouse? Forced to forget your parents and grandparents? A beloved pet? All those precious memories destroyed and ripped apart, fragmented into vague recollections of what once was.

Given how important the theme of remembrance is shown to be elsewhere and the simple fact that the Warrior of Darkness made a promise to Emet-Selch to remember the Ancients...it'll be very interesting to see what, if anything, Venat/Hydaelyn has to say about that.

The reins of history cannot truly be placed into the hands of man until the history of the world is revealed, in full and false deities are exposed as such.