FFXI did eventually get a sort of monster training system for the mini game Pankration. This basically had you catch monsters then level up and train them. I recall being able to assign skills and such to it or even a job class to it and some combos like WHM crab being kind of broken. However these monsters basically found in an arena on full AI against eachother so it was more like playing a pokemon spin off on full auto since it wasn't player job dependent.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
What Classes Do You Want to See Next?
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09-22-2021, 03:54 AMRitsukoSonoda
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09-22-2021, 04:27 AMMonsutaMan
Bumping my BST comment.....
Seriously, is XIV the only mmo without a true hunter pet class, despite BST being a class in the series, plus a staple mmo class?
I only play XIV from time to time when there are events, like this month (Tryna get that XV car....)
It would be my a main game in my mmo rotation if it had such a class; otherwise, I play other mmo being a pet class junkie.
If Summoner was like XI summoner, that would be a different story......
Honorable Mentions
Morpher; it would probably be a limited Monstrosity -esque system job though......I mean if Blue was.....there is no way they are letting people become Dragons in group dungeons.
Summoner, I mean a real deal Holyfield summoner..... -
09-22-2021, 04:36 AMHoehenflugSorry in advance, but you are getting on my nerves.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
All you do in the two topics discussing jobs is to spam 'I can't envision it'. Sorry you are that small minded and can't objectively judge a person's ideas. Maybe next time you play the judge on who's idea is legimate, maybe create a pro/con chart.
It wouldn't grind my gear if you hadn't done it for 2 days straight now; and advance your unfounded negativity in same breath as rooting for 'blitzer'.
To be clear, this not a personal attack. The negativity just gotten a bit excessive. This is supposed to be a fun, positive outlet.
I mean, it's not like FF14 job skeletons are super hard to build.
B Combo 1
A Combo 2
Y Combo 3
X DOT
^ ogcd 15
> ogcd 30
< ogcd 60
v ogcd 120
B Egi Attack 1
A Egi 2
Y Egi 3
X
^ Def CD 120
>
<
v -
09-22-2021, 05:06 AMChazNatlo
In fairness, sometimes he can envision it and feels that vision is bad. I disagree with him (He wants something wholy original, I want something I know I like.) but his outline for why he wouldn't like my Mystic Knight class was at least reasonably well thought out. It'd just be nice if he put such thought into something he liked instead of something he didn't. (If you have and I missed it, I apologise, there is a lot of stuff to read and I only have so many hours in a day.)
On topic, I've made no secret that I want Mystic Knight, though I'll spare the details in this thread.
With Gunbreaker they've basically given a hard no to the Garlean Gunblade, but I still kindof like the aesthetic. Uncertain how you'd differentiate it strongly from Red Mage as a long range fighter that has a close range combat form. (obviously it would lack the doublecast/Black White Mechanic, but it'd still be compared to Red mage.)
I have other ideas, but my brain is leaky right now, so I cannot for the life of me remember them. -
09-22-2021, 06:15 AMSeverianLyonesseFans are generally not the best source of ideas. Their imaginations are often heavily constrained by what previously existed, and they often don't invest much thought into how an idea would *actually* be implemented. They presume that simply because it existed before, that it could/should somehow work in any iteration. And heaven forbid an iterative series forget to include literally everything that came before it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoehenflug
You think I am small-minded for dismissing ideas. I think many others are small-minded for not thinking through their proposals and just hoping that sheer force of will and trust in the devs' boundless creativity will make a concept good. I am merely stating the obvious limitations that have *always* existed with beast-related jobs, and which will probably not improve if it is implemented in FF XIV. Unless someone is super-stoked about spending most of the job leveling running around with an aldgoat, a goobbue, and a spriggan, with small, underhwelming ability sets, it's not going to be a particularly fun experience. I'm sure some demographic of players exists that would actually enjoy that, but I would venture to guess even most of those will be a little put-out when the job released and you could only collect a couple bosses and NMs (like with BLU).
I do have to clarify, though. I think BST is still a likely possibility. Fans are clamoring for it, the devs still don't seem to have given up on the limited job concept, and we still do not have a whip class. So it very well could still happen, but as a BLU fan who thinks BLU was a waste of development resources, I do not anticipate a final BST product to be worth the resources either.
I posted an idea for a Sorcerer/Time Mage using a lot of final bosses as inspiration. But as I think about it more, I would rather some of those ideas just be incorporated into Astrologian which already has a really cool "star magic" theme going on. I think I also posted a brief Blitzer idea somewhere (I think unique weapons are perhaps the biggest factor in XIV's design philosophy). I have also seen thoroughly reasonable proposals to expand on the Companion system without needing a fully devoted job to BST, and think that is a far better evolution of the BST concept than limiting animal buddies to only a single job.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChazNatlo
At this point, most ideas aren't going to appeal to me because, balancing their value as nostalgia-bait versus what new things they bring to the table, in many instances I just think the other jobs already fill their role. I would rather that effort be put into more fully realizing the jobs we do have than try to branch off a similar class (AST over Time Mage, SMN over Geomancer, SAM/RDM/PLD over Rune Knight, BLU/Companions over BST). -
09-22-2021, 06:28 AMRitsukoSonoda
In regards imo to new jobs.
For a pet based job I'd rather have Puppetmaster over Beastmaster. Though my idea for PUP would likely be a limited job as well with the player PUP being a back line character using a remote control device to control and operate a customizable automation that does the actual combat.
I'd also like a Chocobo knight job that made use of the chocobo companion by having the player battle while mounted using a cavalry lance and a mix of player attacks and chocobo skills/magic.
I dont have time atm though to post a whole lot of details -
09-22-2021, 06:29 AMItMeThat's actually a pretty compelling idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
And would be an excellent way to revitalize overworld content as the larger community gets back into tracking and spawning all the awkward NMs.
That's also a nice way to stop every mob from every expac from being on the table and leading to an overwhelming work load.
It would be kinda funny though to see multiple people running around with special NMs like O Poorest Pauldia where only 1 of it is supposed to exist. That's like seeing two Pokemon trainers that each have a Mewtwo. -
09-22-2021, 06:41 AMSeverianLyonesseMaybe they get around it by making them similar to summoner. Souls of the beasts or something; aether taking their form but not the actual NM. Although that strays very close to BLU territory.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
If BST were only limited to FATEs and Dungeon bosses, I would probably be okay with the concept. Give it some pomp. Give it some focus. Revitalize old areas and Eureka/Bozja.
I would be astonished if that happened to be what we got, though. BLU does not inspire hope for me that the devs will stray far from the lazy, low-hanging fruit of common enemies.
And none of this is even addressed the fact that pet classes are just buggy as all get out in this game and the devs probably don't want to go anywhere near them anymore.
Also, in case you wanted to see some positive ideas. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by ChazNatlo
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5651650
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5663740
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5663554
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5663606
Also someone posted a whip job idea that I think has some potential, even if think the whip may need a little extra to give it some clout as a DPS tool. A counterweight or blades or something. Although perhaps not necessary for a BST class if you're not the one doing the actual attacking. -
09-22-2021, 06:54 AMHoehenflugBelieve me, it's not for a lack of sympathy I'm answering you twice (regarding BLU etc). But when you see people wishing for their dream job and don't go into detail, it's probably not because they perpetually can't do it. People lack the time and motivation to advance their ideas that won't get heard. If this thread was 100 successive posts of pure 'BST' spam, it'd probably have more impact than lenghty explanations. So it's still viable feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
Take BST. Above I noted down how the job could work. Ofc it's not perfect, but it's also not impossible either. Egi/Pet attacks could change with your pet, much like SMN nowadays, especially in regards to Titan Egi. Egi glamour system is already there, they just need to copy the model, maybe add some animations.
I think FF14 has a rather obvious formular for the jobs, which people refer to as homogenization. Within that frame, literally every job is possible to create. It's not like the combat system has seen major deviation since it's creation.
EW MNK, SMN, DNC are all birb focused. Maybe we shouldn't pursue BST now. Actually, Reaper was a mistake. We don't need a 2nd dark Job. etc. -
09-22-2021, 07:07 AMShurrikhanSo, why are actually unique Limit Breaks still not a thing? Such would, in a jiffy, allow for both these capacities without necessitating imbalance or a one-note toolkit.Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsutaMan
Sure, but the less detail they provide, the greater chance that the idea they advance will have little in common with what they actually desired and the less discourse develops to put forth more concrete (or, less "spinnable") feedback in terms of the actual gameplay loops, presence, attractors, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoehenflug
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09-22-2021, 07:21 AMSeverianLyonesseBST is probably the most spammy of the ideas, in this thread and in other forums generally over the years. And it is rarely put forth in a thought out manner. So all it is telling the developers is that a BST job, no matter how poorly implemented, will sell expacks better than spending those resources on other aspects of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoehenflug
Again, I am not saying that a BST job is impossible. I'm not even saying it is unlikely. But what I am saying is that many people are not thinking through whether what they want is actually going to provide them and others with a gratifying experience. I would venture to guess that most of them have maybe one or three enemies that they think would be cool to control, and don't think at all about all of the boring enemies and mechanics they *won't* use but will still need to be developed to keep up the appearance of a full job. They see Behemoth but don't think about all the BLU that will proceed it.
(And that doesn't just extend to BST. I see many job proposals centered around maybe one flashy move players want to perform. I don't know why anyone of us need to take those demands as seriously as ideas that posters actually lay out as proof of concept. A weak idea is a weak idea, and I call them like I see them.)
I think the Chocobo Companion is a much better system to flesh out. It already exists. It already works quite well. It might require more development resources per pet, but they would at least have the personality and depth deserving of a pet class, rather than some 2-4 abilities per species. I'd rather have a small handful of quality pets than a system that feels both thin and bloated at the same time. -
09-22-2021, 07:22 AMHoehenflugAnd that's exactly the reason I reappeared. There won't be any meaningful discourse if people's ideas just get shot down by 'it's to similiar to X'. I'm the sort of person that reads almost every comment in threads like these because I love some innocent brain storming and frankly, people being creative. Anyway..Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Well, I'd rather prefer a thinned out version with 3 'new egis' to another Limited disaster, but I feel like we are yelling at clouds at this point. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
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09-22-2021, 07:40 AMShurrikhanI think that goes both ways, though. If everyone wants B and B does in fact happen to be too similar existing job A and future possible job C, A is historically likely to get shafted and C will probably therefore never arrive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoehenflug
It won't matter that C was actually a better use of the thematic space and could have avoided shafting A, so long as B gets enough retweets, so to speak.
That can then be plenty infuriating, too.
Or... we actually parse these things through. For that reason, I'd rather have the occasional downer to reorient discussion, sometimes towards a moratorium on this or that idea if no one has the energy to deal with them for the moment, than have little to no involved discussion at all... so long said as downers are still arguing on practice rather than merely on principle (as seen through decontextualized or dishonestly extreme extensions of the ideas being discussed, etc.). -
09-22-2021, 07:46 AMSeverianLyonesseOr yelling into clouds, perhaps haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoehenflug
I'd be happy with a three-pet BST too, even say a single-pet BST with glamour options. Or at least, even if it weren't my personal fantasy and would just be SMN 2.0, it wouldn't leave a sour taste in my mouth like another BLU would. I think that's even less likely than a fleshed-out Companion system, though. If we get BST, we are in all probability going to get the most prototypical conception of BST any of us can conceive of, totally in line with SE's general approach to things: a million aesthetic options with nothing really of depth to choose between. And I am not looking forward to it. :P -
09-22-2021, 07:59 AMHoehenflugI totally agree, and it also has to do with communication from the developers side as well. If we as customers ( or state citizens) have to resort to pragmatic reductions in order to be heard, it is a systematic problem. But I feel like based from what I vaguely remember, I'm running in open doors here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Let's say A Dragoon A2 Paladin B FFTA2 Templar C Holy Reaper.
Nobody wanted Sage or MNK having a Phoenix AoE, and yet here we are. Not that it is a bad thing, objectively. At the end of the day, they will do what they seem fit.
Not gonna argue here, fellow downer. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
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09-22-2021, 08:03 AMChazNatlo
For the record, I'd totally be cool with a Beastmaster with instant in instant out abilities. The Beast is the ability, and no mucking about over powerscaling the pets.
Alternatively, You get a crowd of Queen drones or the Shadow thing from Darkknight like pets, each pops onto the field for a few seconds, does it's thing as a script, leaves. You cycle between them and whatever weapon skills you have. (Obviously each individually wouldn't be as big a commitment as Queen or whatever, but you'd be flipping between them as you go.) -
09-22-2021, 08:15 AMJettinsonSummoner is recycling, hell i could be the most unfun person and say they decided to look at HoH with the magicite and said "why not just put the primals attacks in SMN".Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
It's al about how they want to use. BST is still feasible just like other classes that still could be put
II want beast master because there's a big appeal on using beasts\enemy as a way to fight.
People gets egi\primals, people get fairies, get a freaking mecha summon (Machinist) and now you get the freaking void from Reaper class. There are probably better ideas on how to implement BST but won't stop me from putting mine.
BST can be much more exciting from the amount of monsters you can pick (coeurl, griffins, insects and so many more).
They can also try and create actual named monsters that you tame, explain origins etc. There are many thoughts on the matter. -
09-22-2021, 08:15 AMShurrikhanI don't have anything precisely developed as of yet—I had an old write-up from back in ARR, but its harddrive has since been lost to me—but if you are willing to also put into discussion a few changes that I feel would in any case be better for the game and would give precedent for some BST ideas, I can give something of a framework.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
I'll try to be brief for now:
Three Background Premises:- We should not be as role-locked as we are, nor job design so ruled by role templates. Kits should have more versatility than they will necessarily use within any particular role, albeit at competing use of time and other resources when crossing between roles so to speak, and casual matchmaking should look at these capacities more directly rather than the mere primary color of a given job.
- It is okay for a kit to be complex. Imagine, for instance, a Summoner with the rotational complexity of, say, a RDM (which is to say, not much, but not quite the least) for each Summon it might have active (though such would still be mutually exclusive).
- It is okay for jobs to have to go out of their way, including in unique ways, for related skills. If need be, it is also fine for matchmaking to account for skill acquisition in much the same way it does gear, so long as the related minimum amounts can be averaged across a premade group. Yes, this means DRGs potentially having to hunt or fight alongside particular Dragons or complete similarly thematic activities (whether one-and-done or a mere small added challenge atop typical combat, etc.), Machinists actually making things per their own designs, Bards learning songs, BLUs taking monster skills, etc. etc.
I realize those ideas can seem a bit far-fetched, but I also feel that each job added should (and perhaps even must) be a means of setting healthy (or, healthier) precedents for the game. Lately, I've felt that job design has gone in the opposite direction. While some things have gotten further polish (though, imo, such is more a matter of obvious issues seeing correction only 1 to 3 expansions late than a 'pro' to offset the 'cons' of shallowed kits and homogeneity), they've also become increasingly rutted and constrained. I would hope our future jobs could attempt to lead out of that somewhat.- That's not to say we have to go whole hog with this, but there is no reason necessarily to deny that, either, especially for "advanced" jobs that can only be reached after already having leveled a perfectly viable alternative (which would pretty well deplete any excuse for not doing BLU things on a BLU, even if it may take more time commensurate to the exceptional versatility available to that job).
The BST Idea Itself:
Personally, I could see two ways of approaching BST.
The first would be the more standard, whereby you have 4 iconic pets (let's say... a panther, a bear, a hawk, and a spirit beast) acquired through the job questline. That approach in turn has two sub-types:
The second approach would be more like that of a BLU, if BLU hadn't been relegated to a half-assed minigame. For Blue, imagine a grand pool of 100 or so abilities, with maybe a dozen or more different "decks" that high-ranking BLUs (be that in Player vs. Player combat or Player vs. Parse) have popularized and a few among which which will tend to be optimal in a given serious (e.g., Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate) fight depending on one's party-mates. BST would be similar, except in that your pet choice would do roughly half your deck-building in and of itself (both from related player skills that combo with the pet's non-exchangeable skills and those pet skills themselves); the remainder would be a bit like "Cross-class" or "Additional" Skills, where you could teach techniques still applicable to the pet's aspect and physique and in turn allow for further player skills related to those in which you trained your pet.In sub-type A, there is a long cooldown on or other means of limiting swaps and your pet essentially becomes your "sub-role", between one leaned more towards offensive sabotage (Panther), much like Ninja, vanguard and survivability (Bear), or supportive utility and less direct means of mitigation (Hawk). The final pet, the spirit beast, would be any and all of the other three, but to a lesser degree.
For sub-type B, you instead weave pet-swaps into your rotation insofar as you are able to capitalize on their utilities. For instance, you might spend the majority of your time, at least in PvE, alongside your Panther, but would swap to Hawk for burst mobility or a helpful mob-displacement or -disarm, etc., or Bear if/when the mitigation afforded or used to cover another could save a life or allow for further uptime for yourself or another melee.
That second approach is obviously the more expensive, though it could at least build off the backs of a successful BLU framework, as many of the skills you'd be copying would be the basic or most iconic skill of a given tameable beast. While BST would obviously have a smaller selection of usable mobs (only the "beasts" among the general class of "monsters"), many of the beasts could easily borrow corollary skills (those with effect or aesthetic that'd naturally fit around a given iconic and BLU-acquirable skill) from the BLU set, leaving the development largely just a process of art rather than developing effects, too.
Put simply, if BLU were left in its current muddled state, the first approach would be our only real option, but if we were resolved to make BLU a complete and compelling job, then it'd be a waste not to tie BST into that via the second approach.
I'll let this much settle for the time being; I'm typing between shifts and may not be back until late, but the framework should already give a bit to discuss. And, if it doesn't, I'll just edit this post as I flesh it out further, finally moving towards the more often covered aesthetics and capacities of the job. - We should not be as role-locked as we are, nor job design so ruled by role templates. Kits should have more versatility than they will necessarily use within any particular role, albeit at competing use of time and other resources when crossing between roles so to speak, and casual matchmaking should look at these capacities more directly rather than the mere primary color of a given job.
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09-22-2021, 08:52 AMHoehenflugYour ideas are/were really ambitious. I feel like my approach of mashing Melee+EGI is a bit more likely, but aside from option B (which is SMN now I guess) I'd play this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It's a bit like that time when HS devs told us over multiple years that player avatars would be too confusing. Or when SE killed Astro (and NIN) for me, because 'muh TP'. Oh well. -
09-22-2021, 09:14 AMSeverianLyonesseI am in agreement on this. While I think Shurrikhan's idea of having a small cast of pets is probably the best way they could implement a BST, it would still be a pet class with all the pet bugs. And if we take out the pets and make them a casting rotation, it's just like every other class (you compare it to SMN but I'm actually getting more MNK vibes with Couerl/Raptor forms).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoehenflug
I do have to say though it's a valiant effort and much better than what I've generally seen on here. Certainly hits on something that feels achievable and meaningful, as opposed to just another empty collect-a-thon.
Again, there is only one working pet in the game and that is your Companion Chocobo. I think that is probably the best jumping off point for this concept (and indeed, the Companion feature feels like it wants to naturally balloon out and flourish into a quasi-BST feature anyway). -
09-22-2021, 09:45 AMHoehenflugI wonder if it's possible to convert the data into instances. I'd love the system to be expanded upon in any case. Back then, I mostly started FF14 for the Chocobo and I still have 0 urge to farm other mounts. Actually, Hunter also convinced me to try WoW back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
In hindsight, I feel like BST could actually lure in more people than I initially realized.
If conversion isn't possible, maybe the pet could function as a companion in the overworld and as egi/faerie (with standardized kit? / other players being able to turn them off visually) in multiplayer dungeons. -
09-22-2021, 09:51 AMShurrikhanJust two quick notes:Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
- I think the idea could certainly be read either way, but I had most imagined it akin to an impactful Fists of Wind/Fire/Earth, whereby all but 3-to-6 player abilities (which total to about two-thirds of your hotbar) would be swapped in accordance with your pet (though an increased portion of them would still function rather similarly in sub-type B, since it might otherwise get just a bit overwhelming, even when amounting for the change in direction I'd like to see per Background Change #2).
- Each pet would have its own pallet of CDs, but under the same (shared) cooldowns, so you wouldn't be obliged to swap them just to perform your rotation; rather, there'd be occasional means by which less potency could still nonetheless, through utility, be an rDPS gain, be that through downtime reduced or healing GCDs saved or perhaps even a second-tank made just barely unnecessary.
- I suspect fixing pet behavior will be worthwhile regardless. To otherwise locks out far too much (including opportunities for Trusts and Squadrons). I know development has historically, and especially of late, preferred shortsighted fixes, but I don't think that's a course we can keep without some serious problems down the road.
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09-22-2021, 10:28 AMSeverianLyonesseI think we are probably past pets in XIV. I think after years of trying to make them work, the devs have given up and want to focus on making rotations as consistent as possible, and abandoning pets was the easiest solution. Like an elemental system, I don't think they could ever bring it back without (a) players clamoring for all the previous pet jobs to be returned back to the way they were, and simultaneously (b) complaining that the whole transition is more of a regression than an evolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I have made peace with the fact that XIV just isn't the pet MMO, and that the concept shined a lot stronger in X, XI, and XII. -
09-22-2021, 10:45 AMWavaryen
A dot class now that summoner is no longer one.
That is it. -
09-22-2021, 12:12 PMShurrikhanI understand that concern but I think all it needs to be averted is a unique, significant offering. For instance, consider an action that you can actually execute, queued, even when in the middle of your (the master's) animation. That's significantly more fluid than even a common oGCD.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
I feel the reason the devs were able to remove pets with so little resistance (still hardly "little" on the whole, but far less than you'd see in most MMOs) was that even the initial iteration was so barebone. Going back to that meager allowance would indeed be regressive, but going past it... not so much.
Consider GW2 and their mounts, for instance. Had they merely matched other MMOs' mounts after having centered its experience for so long on having no mounts, it would have perhaps felt a betrayal; but by going beyond it to have one of the most involved mount experiences, it was applauded both by its players and those outside it, forming one of the largest contributing factors, allegedly, to new players joining with Path of Fire (the expansion in which mounts were finally released).
Simply put: Going half-assed will put development on its ass and make it look ass; actually doing a great job, though, forgives nearly all past encounters with a given subject, and often carries its own redemption or innovation story just through the contrast. -
09-22-2021, 01:02 PMFellgon
blitzballer!
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09-22-2021, 01:47 PMRein_eon_Osborne
Water or Ice themed dps or healer. The lack of water/ice aspected or visual attacks that players have access to in general content as their main damaging means or big damage button is almost baffling.They're nonexistent (I only remember NIN's Hyosho Ranryu, and maybe Midare(?)). Mostly are just more flashes, lights, and explosions. Any remaining hopes that I have that WHM will get some sort of water aspected spell is gone now that they've announced the deletion of Fluid Aura in EW.
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09-22-2021, 03:03 PMSeverianLyonesseTrue, I agree that a massively different take could mitigate player complaints, but look at what we are working with:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
a) a team that notoriously adds underdeveloped dead end features like BLU or Deep Dungeon or Chocobo Racing.
b) a pretty rigid role system that every class must be balanced against or players complain.
c) a fanbase that already has expectations of a beast master being implemented ala FF XI.
Even if the devs were able to design such an awesome job, it would still likely need to be toned down to match the rest of the meta, unless they are suddenly willing to completely retool some 20 jobs to match that level of uniqueness at the same time.
And even if they did, and it fell anywhere close along your proposed idea, players would still complain that it only has X animal companions and that they couldn't collect Y pokemans.
And while I personally would be totally fine risking that third barrier because popular opinion tends to be terrible, I still feel like the other issues are fairly significant.
Samurai is kinda ice themed (along with BLM and NIN). I think NIN is the only class with a water spell now that WHM lost fluid aura.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
BLU is kind of a soft water/ice mage, but we don't talk about BLU.
Given that we have SAM and I love keeping it unique, I would go for a water class first. A chemist could do a lot of work with tinctures, elixirs, poisons, acids. Also a blitzballer could have water attacks. -
09-22-2021, 03:22 PMGDofLevinBST class suggestions
A BST class is not impossible to be implemented. Nor should it not be implemented. However remember what Yoshi-P said? Due to that horrid plague that infected our world, a lot of projects were pushed back. Now given further time those projects might be renewed. But likely some will not. We've only seen two real BST class users. Lyon and Ran'Jit. And that was before the plague hit.
Also I still keep hearing people harp on BLU for reasons I don't understand. Why do people keep hating on BLU? Because it's limited? We've all seen how OP BLU can be. It can take over any role in the system depending on the skills chosen to be used. And honestly I like BLU for how it was introduced and how it may yet improve given TIME. The biggest problem the community is facing is people wanting everything they want now and the heck with what the actual creators are planning for us. The plague ruined a lot of things and yet people were fussing over SE still needing their subscription even though things would take longer. Remember that?
That being said. BST is still a possibility. My suggestions are as follows:
- Find a gimmick for BST that makes it awe inspiring. The ability to merge with your beast's spirit and gain improved skill sets involving the partner beasts powers. Like Ran'Jit was able to do. You could use RPR void avatar possession skill as a base.
- Find a tool or weapon that symbolically can be used with BST. Either a 1 handed Axe like in FFXI or something else. Shields are also a possibility that differ from GLD/PLD shields.
- As for the beasts themselves make them not common ordinary beasts but majestic beasts like Dawon, or Gukelheinz. Beasts you don't find out in the environment but are tailored for the class. Beasts that rise in level with you similar to your Chocobo companion.
- Another possible idea to implement is you can search out special beasts and fight them to tame them. Combine the aspects of a shaman and a BST and earn your beastly companions by connecting with their aetheric wavelengths or something that Garleans weren't capable of doing.
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09-22-2021, 04:53 PMShurrikhanWhile I certainly understand the idea that we must make use of the resources available to us, I don't think we can afford to assume that our resources are limited to those failings. We've seen some oddly great executions, too, after all, and if the shortfalls really were the end and crown of development thus far, there's just not really much left to us. Better to push that boundary, in my opinion, than oversell the realist angle.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse
Indeed, but I'd suggest the solution then is to build the others up first via small steps. While I don't think the dev team can afford to rush ahead to such drastic changes as I've proposed, I do think small steps in those directions could be, themselves, healthy and immediately gratifying.Quote:
Even if the devs were able to design such an awesome job, it would still likely need to be toned down to match the rest of the meta, unless they are suddenly willing to completely retool some 20 jobs to match that level of uniqueness at the same time.
Let's take a quick example:
In terms of diversifying roles, a suitable first step wouldn't require any more than perceptibly greater cross-role output and active defensive play. That might sound big, and its necessary corollaries would quickly ramp up, but the initial concrete changes involved are really quite straight-forward, e.g.,- Increase the effectiveness of mitigation and self-sustain tools like Third Eye, Fists of Earth, and Life Surge,
- Increase the effectiveness of curative tools like Everlasting Flight and Vercure (at compensatory increased MP costs or the like),
- Give Warden's Paean two other versions/modes, based on one's current Song.
- You offer reduced button bloat where buttons are utter non-decisions (in the vein of Dream Within a Dream -> Assassinate or even just click-on-CD skills like Lucid Dream that may as well be passive) and in their place offer back some CC, such as Tri-bind and Miasma's slow; Tether and a slow on Verstone and interrupt against regular mobs on Verthunder; Freeze, Blizzard, and Blizzard II again having their effects; etc., etc.
- You free up 2 charges of Enkindle on Summoner to generate a specific ability based on your current elemental Trance. Two of the five would be relatively pure damage and therefore the place where you'd most often use them in role-constrained play, but the other three trances' uses would now have significant utility atop a decent but still inferior bit of damage (e.g., a Reflect if at melee and Gaol if at range for Titan, Charge if at range and Stun at melee for Ifrit, Knockback from melee and draw in at range for Garuda).
Now, how does one follow that up?- Since DPS are otherwise now "further stepping on healers' toes" or "left with insignificant bloat skills", you make healing duties more frequent, numerous, and integral; there's now plenty of footwork to be done and any help in that regard is no longer "insignificant" or "bloat".
- Since you've made healing more than sequencing oGCDs between Glare/Broil/Malefic spam, you might need provide slightly more involved, deep, and in-context instruction for healers. Well, that would already have been important for reducing community tensions; we've merely placed learning opportunities more tightly against the average player experience.
- Since CC would otherwise seem mere bloat against bosses, you might re-envision its effects or raid/trial encounters slightly, such as by actually having (CC-able, though perhaps at reduced duration) adds appear in raids and trials again and/or having alternate, interesting effects for each CC for when it fails to deal its status effect.
- Now that CC is back, you might invest a bit further into content types that'd make use of it, or at least needn't quite so constrain new content to the straight-and-narrow.
- Since other jobs now have versatility available to them that can step into the domains of those for whom MP is (somewhat of) a real mechanic, you might reevaluate the point of MP, rather than leaving it mostly bloat.
- Now that healers, due to the increased frequency/number/depth of healing tasks/play within a given encounter, actually make use of GCD heals again, you might use that opportunity to further reshuffle the powers in their toolkit towards the healthier.
- Since DPS will now have further self-sustain skills, we might want to further leverage that in solo content and in group content, such as by having enemies hit for more than a pittance and by having more enemy skills naturally skillshot (hit the first enemy within the given angle), trample (deal decreasing damage with each victim hit, or as if facing cumulative mitigation across each), or split.
- Since we've already combated bloat on less often used skills, we may as well take that further. Xeno and Foul, Guren and Senei, and The Forbidden Chakra and Enlightenment, for instance, have no reason to be separate buttons so long as you'd never chose in AoE to focus just the one target over dealing greater total damage via the AoE version. That said, we've now got CC back, so our best solution is to make situations where we might want to focus the one over that total damage.
While that may sound like the natural implications of those first few simple, concrete changes (a stronger Third Eye, Life Surge, and Everlasting Flight, for instance) are rapidly spiraling out of control, I'd argue otherwise. They add up quickly, but each is sound, healthy, and still immediately gratifying.
That, I think, is fine. I think what people get sold on most in a new job is neither quite just the practice or just the principle, but the overall vision, which isn't quite divisible to either single side. Simply put, the largest factor here would be the initial presentation, and I do think that could be done in a way that would be broadly and deeply well-received. Both those dimensions are vital, but I think the devs tend too often to overlook the latter in the attempt to be as universally appealing as possible. Heck, if there were absolutely no detractors, I'd almost think that a bad sign.Quote:
And even if they did, and it fell anywhere close along your proposed idea, players would still complain that it only has X animal companions and that they couldn't collect Y pokemans.
But again, this would be a 7.0 thing at the earliest. For the time being, this would all be about the small steps, such as a new sort of Exploratory that finally learns from Diadem's, Eureka's, and Bozja's mistakes making the case for this or that coming back or being a tiny bit more powerful, and then the chain of events, each small and even individually understandable, that could flow from there.
Wind, predominantly. All but a some six skills (related to flowers or sight) have to do with the sky or wind. Even the one seemingly ice-type spell, Yukikaze, is still a type of wind (literally: Snow-wind).Quote:
Samurai is kinda ice themed (along with BLM and NIN).
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09-23-2021, 01:02 AMKacho_Nacho
Given that summoner has apparently lost its dots, I'm fully expecting a dot class to be introduced in the future. Perhaps chemist?
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09-23-2021, 01:05 AMSeverianLyonesseSome of those ideas are honestly very good. I have no idea if the devs are on the same page on you, but fingers crossed some changes like that happen in 6.x patches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
To clarify Samurai, its Sen gauge is based on a Japanese art principle "setsu gekka" (literally "snow, moon, and flowers"), which is kind of like the visual equivalent of haikus. It represents a progression through the light of the seasons: the "blue" white of snow in winter, the "yellow" white of the moon in autumn, and the "pink" white of flowers in spring.
So while you are correct that the Samurai is "sky" themed, and has a lot of wind abilities to complement that, I do consider ice to be a substantial part of its central motif (albeit driven by wind like most other abilities). At any rate, it's certainly more of an ice class than any other job besides BLM.
EDIT: I also looked back on your Green Mage ideas Shurrikhan, and I am on board. I feel like Green Mage and Geomancer could merge very well into a build that would round out the tanks pretty well. Give them a greathammer and some debuffs/buffs from Green Mage. Give them Sinkhole, Tanglevine, Tremor, Quicksand, Sandstorm, Magma Surge Nature's Wrath from Geomancer. -
10-02-2021, 02:42 AMShougun
I love these type of threads but I want to preface that I am excited to play Sage and Reaper, am not posting out of disappointment and am very excited to try them (and some others, with intention in the end to level them all). Just some post EW job trailer comments on the subject:
With Reaper I feel that "dark transformation job" (thread desire I made) is mostly taken up as an opportunity, one that doesn't make me sad (Reaper looks cool and captures a lot of the general desires), but just that request seems like a less valuable space to fill as Reaper will do much of the desires topically while coming at it with SE's own twist. So that said I want to more officially shift my transformation request from dark to Esper (Zodiac, FFXII), and FFXVI theme (not stepping onto the primal toes of Summoner, so ensure they're different). I still really want a job that focuses on /transforming/ and using those forms, I understand it'll need to be locked into a role so I imagine DD, though I suppose tank is do-able. I believe one way to keep a sense of personalization while having forms, besides perhaps seeing what WoW did with Druid (can unlock other form visuals), is that a weapon which can be molded and / or fit to other models could be used. Say for example one idea was a cloak, sash, scarf, like weapon which would allow it to be incorporated into animations as well (think Bayonetta, though she uses her hair lol). Another could be bangles that perhaps grow in size, almost like Nezha's rings, or I suppose that most recent Shang-chi movie (so for example you could have these rings round the wrist which could easily apply to other models at wrist joint areas, wolf legs, sephirot arms, etc). Relics could provide opportunity for other fun modifications (AF / relics), where like if the relic was all fiery then the transformation may have extra touches to fit that theme (minor texture, effect, etc changes). Would be nice to see a system that encourages a balance between too fluid and static forms- like rapdily changing over and over wouldn't be ideal (need to give a form time to breathe), yet not changing at all would also similarly be non-ideal. Find some balance between being responsive and flexible but yet not hyper static 1 + 1 always = 2 (like say SMN egi were, X situation = Y answer, this isn't horrible just saying it'd be nice if the job had some system to both encourage being responsive (and maybe being responsive over purely predictive) yet that it doesn't always equal the same exact forms in the same exact order at the same exact time every time). I know it has been suggested to do similar to FFXI's and make it more of a limited job, but I had really wanted to play it as a main job (I'd be all for it being both, or there are two different types of content related to it, but for it to only ever be 'limited' wouldn't be my favorite outcome).
Reaper does a nice melee magic vibe for DD but I do believe there is still some room for a 'crunchy' DD (with some magic) job, such like Geo-Knight suggestion (thinking Golbez, Ex-death, Sauron). Weapons of course being chunky, before Sage I had suggested elemental pylons (to go along with the geomancer theme of area recognition, some use being similar to say how you might see them in Fenrir's fight in the snowy dungeon - naturally with more elemental themes and imbuements), might approach a mix of engineer like vibes with big bulk which could be a nice take (big bulky magical engineer).
A ranged DD that is like a huge gun with a shield on it could be fun, just at least in my mind. Not black mage in cast time but a bit more locked down than Bard or MCH, the imagination of what a Ranger job might have been if it was one (if inspired by FFXI like thought of it). -
10-02-2021, 05:15 AMAyche
Time Mage
Magic DPS, rotation built around funky mechanics involving speeding up and slowing down your GCD. -
10-04-2021, 02:00 AMBrightshadow
Pictomancer:
Role: Magic DPS
Concept: Inspirations would be bravely default pictomancer/artist terms for spells, they would use light and dark magic like in bravely default. They will be our new damage overtime magic user since summoner has lost that role.
Would use a mudra type system for different paints.
Just a rough idea of what it could be.