5.0 Dark knight request: Delirium rework

now before 5.2 a small bump to keep this little bastion up, have fun with the patch gentlement.

Patch 5.2 job changes... smh

As expected not that drk got nothing that it's just minor changes for new tier
Odd number patches are rework patches

I feel a 4.2 war buff scenario coming on... buffing a part of the job no one was asking for may be the precursor to a larger rework to ungodly op status in 5.3.

Conspiracy theory aside if se is not going to make the meaningful changes asked for it would be nice for them to have the courtesy to comment and tell ‘em to pound sand with a reason. I feel the exact same way about DRK. The radio silence on valid QoL things is frustrating to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Danelo

I feel a 4.2 war buff scenario coming on... buffing a part of the job no one was asking for may be the precursor to a larger rework to ungodly op status in 5.3.

Conspiracy theory aside if se is not going to make the meaningful changes asked for it would be nice for them to have the courtesy to comment and tell ‘em to pound sand with a reason. I feel the exact same way about DRK. The radio silence on valid QoL things is frustrating to say the least.

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Doubt it. Unless both DRK and WAR get reworks at the same time. The outcry of DRKs is probably offset by the fact it has one of the highest play numbers of the tanks.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Doubt it. Unless both DRK and WAR get reworks at the same time. The outcry of DRKs is probably offset by the fact it has one of the highest play numbers of the tanks.

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It’s all in jest. No one is getting a rework at this point. Everything was balanced prior to the expansion and I hope se learned their lesson with boosting WAR to op status in 4.2. I just want DRKs bw to work like all the other 10 second abilities. It’s a 1 gcd rip-off currently.

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Originally Posted by Danelo

It’s all in jest. No one is getting a rework at this point. Everything was balanced prior to the expansion and I hope se learned their lesson with boosting WAR to op status in 4.2. I just want DRKs bw to work like all the other 10 second abilities. It’s a 1 gcd rip-off currently.

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I don't think it was an issue of SE blatantly buffing WAR to OP in 4.2. It was actually quite irratic from 4.0-4.2 being complete garbage and then being... meh, better than DRK. Its damage was inconsistant was given a useless skill in shake it off (before they finally decided to rework it was just a cleanse). It was what they thought was "oooh if we make it static damage by removing the RNG of it that will work!).
To that I say...
Oh SE... you look at DRK recently? Its balanced in damage according to you and is a bit of a fell cleave bot in Bloodspiller, yet you figured out how to 'balance' it without needing DH/Crit.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

I don't think it was an issue of SE blatantly buffing WAR to OP in 4.2. It was actually quite irratic from 4.0-4.2 being complete garbage and then being... meh, better than DRK. Its damage was inconsistant was given a useless skill in shake it off (before they finally decided to rework it was just a cleanse). It was what they thought was "oooh if we make it static damage by removing the RNG of it that will work!).
To that I say...
Oh SE... you look at DRK recently? Its balanced in damage according to you and is a bit of a fell cleave bot in Bloodspiller, yet you figured out how to 'balance' it without needing DH/Crit.

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Don’t curse DRK with another expansion of current delirium. Take the dhcrits away from war and rebalance but give DRK something original like they should have had from the beginning of this expansion.

SE be like:https://i.imgflip.com/msgc1.jpg

Not surprised DRK got nothing woulda liked something at least a QoL change but poor WAR was teased to have changes to basically get nothing.

bump bcs why not, today im on the mood of don't care anymore, im suppose im still here just to suffer.

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Originally Posted by shao32

bump bcs why not, today im on the mood of don't care anymore, im suppose im still here just to suffer.

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You dont suffer, you have Gunbreaker as a placeholder.
I dont have my old tank-stance warrior with godlike healing capabilities and damage. :x

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

You dont suffer, you have Gunbreaker as a placeholder.
I dont have my old tank-stance warrior with godlike healing capabilities and damage. :x

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actually GNB it's barely a filler for me and it was going to be my secondary choice the days i want to play something different not my main, i want to play DRK and only DRK but i can't since the one i love it's no more, GNB it's the only choice i have bcs is the only tank without inner release, it's not like the old DRK at the end of the day despite having similar pace so it's greatly affecting my experience with the expansion.

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Originally Posted by shao32

actually GNB it's barely a filler for me and it was going to be my secondary choice the days i want to play something different not my main, i want to play DRK and only DRK but i can't since the one i love it's no more, GNB it's the only choice i have bcs is the only tank without inner release, it's not like the old DRK at the end of the day despite having similar pace so it's greatly affecting my experience with the expansion.

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I can empathize with you I didn't play DRK after Deltascape because I disliked it so much so I swapped to WAR playing another class while yearning for your favorite is pretty soul crushing and I can understand your frustrations. Sometimes when things change from what you love it detracts from the overall experience which is Shadowbringers, I honestly hope they can make it so everyone can agree and love DRK it's so polarizing of a class but hang in there and keep making these threads hopefully SE can acknowledge and see feedback.

Wish Delirium had more impactful visuals and less of a spam fest.

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Originally Posted by Awful

I can empathize with you I didn't play DRK after Deltascape because I disliked it so much so I swapped to WAR playing another class while yearning for your favorite is pretty soul crushing and I can understand your frustrations. Sometimes when things change from what you love it detracts from the overall experience which is Shadowbringers, I honestly hope they can make it so everyone can agree and love DRK it's so polarizing of a class but hang in there and keep making these threads hopefully SE can acknowledge and see feedback.

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i don't ask more than that, i hope with all my soul they do that.

bump, you are not allowed to leave the first page of the tank role subforum my dear.

sorry for the double post, i wonder if i will have to keep this thread all the expansion up, mm i hope nope, please Dev team, just make DRK fun again.

Just randomly arrived to this interview:

https://www.gematsu.com/2020/04/fina...ights-and-more

hate to say it, but when asked about changes to tanks (even if the asked ones were debatable), yoshi-p gave an answer which is not very promising.
I can probably say that all my hopes to be able to play a DRK that might be fun before 6.0 vanished....
Again, the players complaining about non-glamour stuff are just ignored......

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—I primarily play the Tank role, specifically Gunbreaker and Paladin. Paladin has, in my opinion, been a job that lacks a lot in the self-mitigation department for cooldowns compared to its Tank brethren. Is there any chance we could possibly see an addition to their self-mitigation repertoire or even a change to Divine Veil, so that even the Paladin can gain the shield absorption effect?

Yoshida: “Currently, the tank role is becoming progressively more equalized, but at the same time, we want each job to have its own established identity. If we make them even more equal, then it would truly make no difference which job you used—it is unlikely that we would make any changes during the 5.x series. Please stay tuned for any movements leading up to the next expansion.”

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so, we have a lot of ppl claiming that DRK is a new marauder branch with more oGCD, his identity doesn't exist anymore since everything unique has been remove and everything the job have get this expansion is half baked and boring and he say they want to each job have his own identity and not gonna make any change during 5.x? not a direct answer to DRK but in general is a answer to our request, i think yoship don't know how tanks play or live in a pararel world, this expansion has been making tanks more equal in terms of gameplay that DRK and WAR are basically the same with pretty small diferences and he say they want to keep the identity of each tank when they proceed to copy paste inner release, make blood gauge work the exact way that rage gauge with the exact generic tools and have both jobs with the same generic GCD rotation?.

if yoship belive that tanks identity is based on 1-2 skills and the rest can be shamelessly copy pasted with extremly minimun diferences then he is actually negligent on his duty to allow current DRK desing, the worst thing is if they allow this next expansion and DRK don't see any of the desirable changes the job so desperately scream to return to his heavensward fllow then i not gonna support anymore a game that only cares on doing everything wrong not listen his player base and screw with my fav job again and again bcs it's they fav hobby.

ty for the interview Bissani.

Honestly, DRK would become infinitely more enjoyable(and DRK-like) if they just increased the amount of MP per minute and untied Darkside from EoS, to make it something you actually have to maintain. Delirium does indeed provide something of a wedge in any hypothetical changes as well though. I don't think it's possible to make it into something really engaging without being too invasive with current DRK's design however, which obviously has to wait until 6.0.

My proposition for now, more in line with usual mid-expac reworks:

Change Delirium's effect to "Allows the execution of Bloodspiller, Quietus, or Living Shadow without cost, while also doubling its potency. Effect fades upon execution."

The potency could be reduced to just a certain % based on balance. The main goal is to just take Delirium window "out of the way" for the other changes and getting rid of the BS spam nobody likes(since now it's just one BS/LS with buffed potency, instead of 5 BSs). It does however add some thinking about using it on LS or BS depending on how it lines up, which would be more engaging, not to mention enabling earlier use of LS in opener, without having to wait for 50 blood gauge.

Change Blood Weapon's cooldown to 30 seconds.
Increase Syphon Strike's MP value to 1500.
Increase Carve and Split's MP value to 1200.
Remove Darkside refresh from Edge of Darkness/Shadow.

This should add MP for 3 more spenders per minute to avoid overcapping during downtime, but 2 of those would be spent on Flood rather than Edge(since you’d need to refresh Darkside every 30 seconds now), so it wouldn’t really make EoS spammy, despite greatly improving APM and resource management outside of burst.

Of course some potency changes would likely be required, due to losing a couple Bloodspillers and adding more MP spenders.

{—I primarily play the Tank role, specifically Gunbreaker and Paladin. Paladin has, in my opinion, been a job that lacks a lot in the self-mitigation department for cooldowns compared to its Tank brethren. Is there any chance we could possibly see an addition to their self-mitigation repertoire or even a change to Divine Veil, so that even the Paladin can gain the shield absorption effect?

Yoshida: “Currently, the tank role is becoming progressively more equalized, but at the same time, we want each job to have its own established identity. If we make them even more equal, then it would truly make no difference which job you used—it is unlikely that we would make any changes during the 5.x series. Please stay tuned for any movements leading up to the next expansion.” }

Same type of answer as when they said they wouldnt change living dead because it would hurt Dark Knight lore… HaHaHa

For everyone that want to be heared, have good arguments, insight or blablabla, imagine this:

There is a runaway three eyed red chocobo of chocobocalipse barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are the scions of the seven dawn tied up and unable to move. The three eyed red chocobo of chocobocalipse is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the three eyed red chocobo of chocobocalipse will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there Nanamo and Tataru on the side track. You have two options:
Do nothing and allow the three eyed red chocobo of chocobocalipse to kill the scions on the main track.
Pull the lever, diverting the three eyed red chocobo of chocobocalipse onto the side track where it will kill only Nanamo and Tataru.
Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do?

Well here is the answer… The three eyed red chocobo of chocobocalipse doesnt have to go through tracks, it will do what he wants, he can murder whoever he wants or none, your Will wont change the outcome,
you will have as much persuasive power over him as he wants to let you.

And yes, this is from wikipedia. xD

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Originally Posted by PeacefulEdge

[...]

There is a runaway Zenos barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are the scions of the seven dawn tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the Zenos will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there Nanamo and Tataru on the side track. You have two options:
Do nothing and allow the Zenos to kill the scions on the main track.
Pull the lever, diverting the Zenos onto the side track where it will kill only Nanamo and Tataru.
Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do?

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This is the right thing to do:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...ch01p16-17.jpg

And this is the left thing to do:

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/98/0d/6c/9...nny-photos.jpg

tbh i wouldn't even mind if Delirium gave us 5 stacks of free blood usage similar to Ninja shadow clone or sleeve draw would

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Originally Posted by Duskane

tbh i wouldn't even mind if Delirium gave us 5 stacks of free blood usage similar to Ninja shadow clone or sleeve draw would

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What would the point of this change even be though? You'd still just spend those 5 stacks at once by BSing 5 times in a row, because of how buffs line up. There is practically no advantage to spreading them, since DRK has no meaningful gcd choice whatsoever - it's literally one combo plus BS, that's all.

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Originally Posted by PeacefulEdge

snip

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"Don't give feedback, because I copy-pasted a badly written analogy-meme."

Also, just kill Zenos. He's a weak-ass, level 70 dungeon boss - what's he gonna do?

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—I primarily play the Tank role, specifically Gunbreaker and Paladin. Paladin has, in my opinion, been a job that lacks a lot in the self-mitigation department for cooldowns compared to its Tank brethren. Is there any chance we could possibly see an addition to their self-mitigation repertoire or even a change to Divine Veil, so that even the Paladin can gain the shield absorption effect?

Yoshida: “Currently, the tank role is becoming progressively more equalized, but at the same time, we want each job to have its own established identity. If we make them even more equal, then it would truly make no difference which job you used—it is unlikely that we would make any changes during the 5.x series. Please stay tuned for any movements leading up to the next expansion.”

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To be fair, he's just talking about buffing PLD mitigation, nothing to do with dps rotations. Frankly the question itself is hella dumb - if you play both PLD and GNB, it's rather obvious that it's GNB that actually has the worst personal mitigation of all tanks - people really always forget about that passive block, huh? Then again, there's a comment right under the interview, calling it bs... and claiming that it's DRK that needs a mitigation buff, lmao.

I wish they had to answer some good tank questions for once, regarding the homogenization, complete watering down and how meaningless the role feels right now. but it's always just "hurr durr, my job is too weak, even though it's marginal difference, pls buff" - to which, honestly, no shit it's gonna be ignored.

I wonder if they're really not getting any decent ones, or are just cherry picking stuff that's easy to dismiss, in order to pretend they're actually addressing the role(same with heals tbh). In fact, this frames the players as ones who are asking for more homogenization, while Yoshi is "defending job identity". Tinfoil Helmet of Fending time

"I wish they had to answer some good tank questions for once, regarding the homogenization, complete watering down and how meaningless the role feels right now"

Yoshida: “Currently, the tank role is becoming progressively more equalized, but at the same time, we want each job to have its own established identity. If we make them even more equal, then it would truly make no difference which job you used—it is unlikely that we would make any changes during the 5.x series. Please stay tuned for any movements leading up to the next expansion.”

I think they have made their stance pretty clear by now, whatever dps rotation change will be in 6.0.

Also i didnt said not to post feedback, what i said is that our feedback is as meaningful as SE wants to, and after more than half a year, i think we should just accept the inevitable, is pretty meaningless when is about DrK.

And i really want to be proved wrong in the incomming patchs, i really do.

Btw, should i have put "Super-Omega-Omni-Alpha-Million-headed-Hyper-Dragon God of Chaos" instead Zenos? Is that a worthy challenge? Mmmmm, even better, a three eyed red chocobo of chocobocalipse!

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Originally Posted by PeacefulEdge

I think they have made their stance pretty clear by now, whatever dps rotation change will be in 6.0.

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No, they really haven't - all it says is that they likely won't make any meaningful changes until 6.0, which we've already knew, so nihil novi.

What I'd like them to talk about is if they realize that they've messed up big-time when it comes to support roles and if they have any plans to actually shift this direction ever, or will 6.0 just be more of the same or worse. Even if you were super generous with this quote and considered it a confirmation that "Yes, we will make changes in 6.0"(which it's not, it's just generic "wait until expac and then see" crap) - that was still in reference to balance of mitigation, nothing to do with dps rotations, nor making jobs more distinct, complex or impactful.

Like, I'm not expecting Yoshi to go on a tirade about tank and healer gameplay after the guy just asked to buff his PLD - again, it was just a pretty shit question that couldn't have possibly lead to any good answers - but I do wish they talked more in depth about the issue on some occasion. Honestly I don't even want to hear Yoshi talking about it - as he likely doesn't actually know much, it's not directly his concern - I'd rather see some big interview/QnA with somebody from the job design team. There's been that whole series about making of SHB recently and they've spent a whole, whooping, single minute talking about job design.

Hello Darkness my old friend, time to go to the front page once again.

How about this:

Delirium:
Procs the combo trait of all weaponskills, so that Syphon Strike and Souleater can be used out of sequence, and increases the MP regen of Syphon Strike.
Allows all weaponskills to grant a stack of Dark Arts.
Doubles the rate at which the Darkside gauge depletes.

This way it can be used defensively with Souleater to recover more HP.
It can be used offensively with Syphon Strike to recover MP.
Each use procs DA to use Flood/Edge, which is necessary to keep Darkside up at twice the speed of depletion.
Darkside is still necessary to use Bloodspiller, it is no longer free.

You could still just spam Bloodspiller > Edge > Bloodspiller > Edge for max DPS, however Darkside would deplete too quickly to sustain this.
You could double weave 2 Edge's between each Bloodspiller, but this would drain your MP.
So you will have to break for at least one Syphon Strike.

It has the same sort of APM as the old Dark Arts spam, but this is isolated to Delirium windows instead of constant use.

I have a few concerns about that.

First the whole dark arts/darkside thing, even with doubling the speed of darkside the moment you land a free edge will end being as meaning less bcs every cast grants 30s so you will end generating a insane amount of darkside time for no reason, I mean seems it's does something bcs it's related but in practice stills dealts nothing gameplay wise so it need necessary changes on darkside and related skills to make that viable somehow for no mention TBN won't be able to being used under such window since the dark arts proc could be easily overlapped and wasted making the skill a straight dps lost so better get rid of the whole dark arts thing under delirium

The second is if it's not properly designed it will end being a GCD spam at best with edges between, so unless we make the procs being 1 used per skill to secure the diversity of the execution or something like that it could end exactly like now bcs spam x skill is better since yada yada and if we determinate an order it will become a extended gnasing fang combo that use your regular skills.

Now outside of that and being more realistic they aren't going to do anything about it and the rework alone right now won't solve many of the problems current design have, my guess will be not only rework delirium but the whole black blood system to repurpose all the skills related to it so living dead don't be a glorified dot, inner delirium, fell spiller, ect ect, and make DRK complete different of WAR from the source of the problem.

I think Dark Knight is fine right now.