Customizable pronouns

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

That is the suggestion, yes. Either customizable pronouns or, as would be more likely implemented in a game like this, they/them (or the equivalent in other languages, I suppose). This isn't a troll post at all.

I'm a little saddened such a simple suggestion has attracted this many bigots.

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Call everyone that don't agree with you a bigot. That's a real great strategy to being understood and being taken seriously by a major populace.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Gonna be that selfish/un-altruistic guy and say I'd rather they put those hypothetical localization and script costs to fit those "they" pronouns to the more mainstream current costs we have.

Every year and every new expav is a struggle for the ff14 team to implement with their limited time and resources. I'd rather not see those sunk into something to please a very niche minority of players.

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I hate this argument so much as a lot of people who uses it are inconsistant about it. Does this mean you would also support that they stopped working on Savage and Ultimate content all together because those only cater towards a very niche minority, especially in the case of ultimate? I know I don't even though I would enjoy time better spent on *insert content I enjoy here* instead.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

In a thousand years, when archeologists are digging up bones of today's civilization, what gender do you think they're going to classify the skeletons as? If you answer anything other than "male" or "female", then you're denying reality. If you want to headcanon yourself, in game and/or out, as something else, go for it. Just don't expect, nor demand, that others pander to your imagination.

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gender and sex arent the same thing, and thats cientifically proven

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Call everyone that don't agree with you a bigot. That's a real great strategy to being understood and being taken seriously by a major populace.

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Ironically, their accusations of bigotry are also a sign of their own bigotry. They don't seem very tolerable of anyone who's opinions conflict with their own. Have some of them possibly been bigots themselves? Probably. But for the most part I just see people agreeing or disagreeing, sometimes in great detail. That doesn't make them bigots. That just means they have opinions.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

That is the suggestion, yes. Either customizable pronouns or, as would be more likely implemented in a game like this, they/them (or the equivalent in other languages, I suppose). This isn't a troll post at all.

I'm a little saddened such a simple suggestion has attracted this many bigots.

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There isn't really an equivalent to they/them in a few of the other languages. Kind of an English centric request.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

There isn't really an equivalent to they/them in a few of the other languages. Kind of an English centric request.

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This has been put forward time and time again, and I have yet to see an argument against this one deal-breaking point. This is from an English speaking standpoint only. It's extremely complicated already in English, it's going to be a lot more complicated in languages that do not use/have a neutral pronoun, and even those that do - it's not correct to use it in the sentences that already exist.

Even 'they/them' is supposed to refer to multiple and not an individual. It's actually grammatically incorrect to use 'they/them' as a singular. It's plural, though I will admit that times change and this has slowly to started to move from the norm to a singular use. But for now, it's still considered plural.

As an add on, I believe this is also the reason why most authors who write in English; when they have a character that is nonbinary or something of the sort, they don't say they/them - they use the characters name as it simply flows better.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

There isn't really an equivalent to they/them in a few of the other languages. Kind of an English centric request.

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Not to mention that our character's gender determines what we are referred to as, such as "My Lord" or "My Lady" among many others.

What would a "they" even be called? "My Person"?

If this is implemented, i wonder how many day's it'll be before SJW's get's triggered by something that they deem offence and demand punishments and permanents.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

I hate this argument so much as a lot of people who uses it are inconsistant about it. Does this mean you would also support that they stopped working on Savage and Ultimate content all together because those only cater towards a very niche minority, especially in the case of ultimate? I know I don't even though I would enjoy time better spent on *insert content I enjoy here* instead.

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There are more Savage raiders in the world, than people who are asking for this though.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

I hate this argument so much as a lot of people who uses it are inconsistant about it. Does this mean you would also support that they stopped working on Savage and Ultimate content all together because those only cater towards a very niche minority, especially in the case of ultimate? I know I don't even though I would enjoy time better spent on *insert content I enjoy here* instead.

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That's the removal of existing content that is actually playable. Your argument doesn't hold up as the OP request is for a bunch of wasted effort on a "feature" that next to no one would use. Sure, it would please this tiny amount of people. But savage is played by a lot more people and IS ACTUAL CONTENT. Maybe go back to the drawing board and try to find a better comparison, since you clearly didn't get it right the first time.

Also, to the OP who keeps posting and calling people bigots. I don't think you understand what that word means. Here:

big·ot
/ˈbiɡət/
noun
a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.

If anything, this sounds more like you than the people actually discussing it, OP.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

I just assume everyone is a dude and call them dude or bro until corrected and then I use their preferred Pronouns.

This is the list that I was speaking of. https://genderfluidsupport.tumblr.com/gender. Hey I don't have an issue with whatever anyone wants to call themselves. They aren't hurting anyone. I just think the amount of work that it would take wouldn't be worth it. Hell think about it like this? Minority groups that are larger still don't have any representation in FFXIV. I.E PoC, Natives or w/e. So FFXIV has never really been that inclusive.

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Representing specific cultures is a very different thing to genders, which are a thing that all humans have regardless of culture.

There's no reason to expect to see native Americans in Eorzea (although actually we know they're over in the New World, and are brought up in the blue mage quest), and we can set characters to have all kinds of skin colours.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

In a thousand years, when archeologists are digging up bones of today's civilization, what gender do you think they're going to classify the skeletons as? If you answer anything other than "male" or "female", then you're denying reality. If you want to headcanon yourself, in game and/or out, as something else, go for it. Just don't expect, nor demand, that others pander to your imagination.

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The whole point of this debate is that gender isn't as clear-cut as [male body = male gender] and [female body = female gender].

It's clearly a very real thing for people whose minds are built that way. They're not "putting it on" for fun - why would they when other people react to the concept so badly?

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Even 'they/them' is supposed to refer to multiple and not an individual. It's actually grammatically incorrect to use 'they/them' as a singular. It's plural.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Dates to the 14th century, if Wikipedia is correct.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

This has been put forward time and time again, and I have yet to see an argument against this one deal-breaking point. This is from an English speaking standpoint only. It's extremely complicated already in English, it's going to be a lot more complicated in languages that do not use/have a neutral pronoun, and even those that do - it's not correct to use it in the sentences that already exist.

Even 'they/them' is supposed to refer to multiple and not an individual. It's actually grammatically incorrect to use 'they/them' as a singular. It's plural, though I will admit that times change and this has slowly to started to move from the norm to a singular use. But for now, it's still considered plural.

As an add on, I believe this is also the reason why most authors who write in English; when they have a character that is nonbinary or something of the sort, they don't say they/them - they use the characters name as it simply flows better.

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Singular they has been around since the 15th century. It's been used as a singular pronoun for longer than it has as a plural pronoun. So it's very much grammatically correct. Changing pronouns is very simple in English. I'm aware it's more complicated in French, German, and Japanese but I'm not a fluent speaker of any of those languages so I can't speak for them.

For those playing the cutesy game of trying to reflect bigot back to me, I didn't say everyone who disagrees is a bigot. Just that this thread has attracted a bunch, such as the people that are specifically invalidating nonbinary identities and trans people.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Dates to the 14th century, if Wikipedia is correct.

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It is still heavily argued to be plural. Even if it was used back in the 14th century, it can just be argued that those works were grammatically incorrect. Shakespeare does that a lot. Just because it's old doesn't mean that it's correct. Hopefully, in the future it will be adjusted so that it is widely accepted as singular, right now, it is not. You'll still get marked down for using 'they/them' as singular in papers for example.

What you posted shows a lot of arguments on how people avoid using they/them as singular, preferring to write around it than use it.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Singular they has been around since the 15th century. It's been used as a singular pronoun for longer than it has as a plural pronoun. So it's very much grammatically correct. Changing pronouns is very simple in English. I'm aware it's more complicated in French, German, and Japanese but I'm not a fluent speaker of any of those languages so I can't speak for them.

For those playing the cutesy game of trying to reflect bigot back to me, I didn't say everyone who disagrees is a bigot. Just that this thread has attracted a bunch, such as the people that are specifically invalidating nonbinary identities and trans people.

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It's no cutesy game. Pot calling kettle black.

I'd appreciate it if they gave us the customization option to change our arms into wings because I identify as a pigeon.
Or I want my Au'ra to identify as a Lalafell.

Yeah no, don't waste time on things that would only please a very tiny minority of players.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Hi there!

So I'm nonbinary and it's been a real treat seeing gender neutral pronouns being used for the pixies in Il Mheg and for our adorable branch. For the WoL, though, there's always only he/him or she/her. I was wondering if it might be possible to set different pronouns for written dialogue and system messages, either through the character creation process or something in the options menu? It would be a nice little bit of inclusion to have in the game.

Obviously, voiced lines that use pronouns don't necessarily need to change in the process.

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No.

Pixies have different rules for their genders or lack thereof compared to both people in real life and playable races in the game. Yes, you are free to believe whatever you like about yourself, but not only does that not make it true, it's also unfair of you to demand that others refer to you under a false pretense. Also, since people are literally required to undergo a surgical procedure in Japan to make sure they can't breed if they change genders, and the developers of this game are based in Japan, I really don't think the entire transgender agenda is going to fly here.

/thread

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Singular they has been around since the 15th century. It's been used as a singular pronoun for longer than it has as a plural pronoun. So it's very much grammatically correct. Changing pronouns is very simple in English. I'm aware it's more complicated in French, German, and Japanese but I'm not a fluent speaker of any of those languages so I can't speak for them.

For those playing the cutesy game of trying to reflect bigot back to me, I didn't say everyone who disagrees is a bigot. Just that this thread has attracted a bunch, such as the people that are specifically invalidating nonbinary identities and trans people.

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No one in this thread has talked about Trans people at all.

This is exactly why people are fed up with this gender stuff. If i wasn't afraid of being banned from the game i love i would give you some harsh truths but i'll bite my tongue

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Singular they has been around since the 15th century. It's been used as a singular pronoun for longer than it has as a plural pronoun. So it's very much grammatically correct. Changing pronouns is very simple in English. I'm aware it's more complicated in French, German, and Japanese but I'm not a fluent speaker of any of those languages so I can't speak for them.

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Language involves and as of today people don't use "they/them" as singular anymore. In german it would be "ihr/sie" and so much more complicated as it's only ever used in plural. However "sie" is also the german word for "she" so only feminin or "Sie" as a polite way to adress an adult or elder regardless of gender. So there is no way to translate that. The only neutral we have is "it" so "es" but it's used for objects, or children. But I know you people don't want to use the already existing neutral one. So in the end all our nouns have a gender, our version of "THE" is either "Der, Die" or "Das" depending on it's gender. I hope you can imagine that it's all but simple.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

It is still heavily argued to be plural. Even if it was used back in the 14th century, it can just be argued that those works were grammatically incorrect. Shakespeare does that a lot. Just because it's old doesn't mean that it's correct. Hopefully, in the future it will be adjusted so that it is widely accepted as singular, right now, it is not. You'll still get marked down for using 'they/them' as singular in papers for example.

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It's very widely accepted as singular. You just rarely notice when you use it as singular until someone makes some noise about it. We naturally use singular they when referring to someone whose gender we don't know, for instance. Arguing that it's exclusively plural is fairly recent historically.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

No one in this thread has talked about Trans people at all.

This is exactly why people are fed up with this gender stuff. If i wasn't afraid of being banned from the game i love i would give you some harsh truths but i'll bite my tongue

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You really haven't read enough of the thread then. There's literally a post that talks about wanting to separate the T from LGB a few pages back and that's just the most obvious example.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

It's very widely accepted as singular. You just rarely notice when you use it as singular until someone makes some noise about it. We naturally use singular they when referring to someone whose gender we don't know, for instance. Arguing that it's exclusively plural is fairly recent historically.

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I understand this argument, and it's not a logically horrible one. I'm more interested in the scientific view, which presents actual transgenderism as the result of a child's brain being incorrectly formed due to a poor balance of hormonal chemicals in the mother's womb. So for me, this would put real transgenderism into the same category as any other mental illness that one could be born with, such as Down's syndrome. It earns no hatred from me, and I disagree with this form of transgenderism carrying any stigma. However, that doesn't mean we the people should reinforce the delusion that it causes. Like any illness, it should be treated, even if that treatment is only logic and compassion.

However, this is the Internet, and most people I've encountered who say they are nonbinary, transgender, or anything to such an effect is not an example of the above, but rather someone who decided it based on a misunderstanding of things like whether personality traits are masculine or feminine. I'm not trying to be a bigot or whatever here. I'm just saying that this is a factually incorrect view, and as such should be thrown out the window faster than the idea that 2+2=chair.

Furthermore, there is no room for politics in this game. If you want to discuss politics, perhaps find a way for Limsa Lominsa to eventually ally with the kobolds and sahagin so the three of them can share their land.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

It's very widely accepted as singular. You just rarely notice when you use it as singular until someone makes some noise about it. We naturally use singular they when referring to someone whose gender we don't know, for instance. Arguing that it's exclusively plural is fairly recent historically.

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Yes, it is accepted as singular in common day usage, you know, average every day. Like; 'Hey, they're over there.' compared to the 'He's over there,' even if we know the gender of a person.
It is still argued to be plural. That's just how English has evolved, and how finicky people are. The singular has only become common these days due to certain factors, the movement in gender inclusion. Where a person is better off using the neutral rather than going off appearance alone - this wasn't common back in the day. I'm talking about a decade ago. This only tended to happen when someone has a unisex name, and you didn't know how the person looked or heard their voice.

Will it change so everyone will accept this? Perhaps. But you will still get people arguing that is is plural regardless of historical use. And I would probably still get marked down if I used they/them as singular in an English examination depending on who was marking my paper in regards to proper grammar usage.

And thus a lot of news papers adjust in regards to its usage, preferring to use the name of the person and write around the usage of using specific pronouns than actually use they/them.

Again, this may change in the future where it's completely wiped out and singular use is seen as the actually grammatically correct norm. For now, it isn't. And you will still get professionals arguing about it.

Your deep misunderstandings about what constitutes a mental illness aside, I'm really not sure why asking for the ability to customize my pronouns in a video game is a political thing. It literally affects no one else's gameplay.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Your deep misunderstandings about what constitutes a mental illness aside, I'm really not sure why asking for the ability to customize my pronouns in a video game is a political thing. It literally affects no one else's gameplay.

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You've been told reasons why. I haven't seen a lot of answers to combat it. The code, the time it takes to reword everything, the cost of it, etc. Do the cons outweigh the pros? This isn't bigotry, it's standard development in regards to all QoL added into a game.

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

YOU HAVE TURNED INTO AN ELEZEN! I JUST NOTICED! Witchcraft, but it looks well done! :)

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I am a handsome boi

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

I'm really not sure why asking for the ability to customize my pronouns in a video game is a political thing. It literally affects no one else's gameplay.

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I think it mostly comes down to how often such concessions or requests are asked for lately in the real world. It has gotten to the point where a lot of people are starting to not take it seriously, which is a bit of a shame. People ask for an inch and they take a mile though and that isn't right either.

I'm pretty supportive of the LGBT community, as an aside. Heck, I even have a couple friends who are part of it and they are the most down to earth and kind people you could ever meet. So my position on this is definitely not that of opposition to a whole community. It is about priorities in a video game.

You're right though, it doesn't affect anyone else but those who want it. It's just that there's only so many resources to go around, and something like this seems...unnecessary at this point in time. Most people wouldn't care if they added it. They really wouldn't. And it's not that it's a bad idea either. There are simply other bigger issues with the game that need addressed first is all.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

You've been told reasons why. I haven't seen a lot of answers to combat it. The code, the time it takes to reword everything, the cost of it, etc. Do the cons outweigh the pros? This isn't bigotry, it's standard development in regards to all QoL added into a game.

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YOU HAVE TURNED INTO AN ELEZEN! I JUST NOTICED! Witchcraft, but it looks well done! :)

Boy howdy this threads still going. I do love the use of empathy like you can't be empathetic but not support the ideas/want of a person. Like I have a ton of empathy for emet and the acians, does that mean I have to support the genocide of entire planet's now? No.. that's not how empathy works.

Empathy is being able to understand where someone's coming from, even if you disagree with their ideals. You can understand why they want/Do xyz, but that doesn't mean you condone it.

Do I support non-binary as a concept? Nope, but would I go around punching or intentionally insulting them? Absolutely not.

I may not agree with the concept, but I will still treat you as human.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Your deep misunderstandings about what constitutes a mental illness aside, I'm really not sure why asking for the ability to customize my pronouns in a video game is a political thing. It literally affects no one else's gameplay.

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It does affect everyone else's gameplay, actually. You're asking the devs to put their effort toward implementing a change in the text of the entire game for barely any players, which would take their time away from developing things like dungeons, raids, quests, and even female Hrothgar and male Viera being playable (assuming that's going to be a thing, I haven't really kept up on it). Also, I believe you're the one with a deep misunderstanding of what a mental illness is. Like I said, you can believe whatever you want about yourself, but if it's factually incorrect (and it is), it's unfair of you to demand that others refer to you according to your fantasy.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Do I support non-binary as a concept? Nope, but would I go around punching or intentionally insulting them? Absolutely not.

I may not agree with the concept, but I will still treat you as human.

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In other words, this. Absolutely this.

Lore wise? Is gender fluidity even a thing in Eorzea? I can't find anything about in any Quest Text. Lore or the Encyclopedia Eorzea

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

Lore wise? Is gender fluidity even a thing in Eorzea? I can't find anything about in any Quest Text. Lore or the Encyclopedia Eorzea

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maybe it is and the non-binary ppl just hide where no-one can see them like male viera (:

And how exactly are we going to implement this in ARR? Is OP to suggesting we re-hire the old cast just we can have a they/them option? If that can't be done then what, make the new cast revoice all of ARR? Like, come on. It's not feasible at this stage of the game. This is something you ask when a game is in DEVELOPMENT. Not when we're in 5.0 and with two different English voice casts. Not to mention, most of don't want to divert resources for what essentially is an rp feature. Yes, we get it, you're non-binary and you believe your character is an extension of yourself. Well, sorry its still fiction and you have the ability to use imagination.

Also, this is such a small issue. It's so easy to pretend your character is non-binary. I've done it. Many people have done it. Move along. It's not happening.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonoreo

Your deep misunderstandings about what constitutes a mental illness aside, I'm really not sure why asking for the ability to customize my pronouns in a video game is a political thing. It literally affects no one else's gameplay.

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It does when I have to hear at the eve of a major patch/xpac that they didn't have time or resources to fully finish and/or start X content because they were busy trying to complete this X content that only a really small amount of players will really benefit from.

For example, if I had to pick between those costs and more Ulti, I'd pick Ulti any day. At least, even those people who don't participate, which are quite a large sample of players, can still enjoy them through streams.

This is so silly. You want to take the development team time and effort who could be fixing issues and preparing content to put a useless feature so you can feel better about yourself?

You can be a male/female in the game. You can role play whatever you feel like and pronouns are the problem? Lmao.

If it is really that important the NPCs call you the pronoun you want it you have some inner issues about yourself.

I mean, we have he/she/him/her. What else do we need? When I created my character, I was given two gender options. What's the argument here?

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

It does when I have to hear at the eve of a major patch/xpac that they didn't have time or resources to fully finish and/or start X content because they were busy trying to complete this X content that only a really small amount of players will really benefit from.

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I have two issues with this.

1) Do you have examples of this happening? The only time I can remember the dev team saying they had to cut stuff for work on other parts of the game was Eureka.

2) I feel like youre asking for them to never make another ultimate again, the percentage of the playerbase that ever gets involved in running that content is minuscule at best. "Only a small amount of players benefit from"

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

This is so silly. You want to take the development team time and effort who could be fixing issues and preparing content to put a useless feature so you can feel better about yourself?

You can be a male/female in the game. You can role play whatever you feel like and pronouns are the problem? Lmao.

If it is really that important the NPCs call you the pronoun you want it you have some inner issues about yourself.

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Golly, this is still going huh. But still, this.

You, OP, are a real person in the real world with your own preferences that people that you speak to face to face to can ignore or accept.

You know what isn't real? The player's character, the Source and the First. Therefore, your real world issues do not apply because this is a creation from a team of people with a vision that had nothing to do with you or your preferences from the start. They did give some care to consider players, yes. But when you hit sub .05% (BS numbers but I know it's not a million of y'all) of a target audience it really is not something to divulge thousands of dollars in resources into. That's a lot of paychecks to hand out to voice actors, writers, programmers in all languages.

Im gonna try to not look at this thread anymore but I would encourage everyone to go read the interviews that Yoshi-p has done on promoting LGBT representation in video games. The man is very much pro-LGBT and pro-trans identities and I feel like you should take what Yoshi-p thinks into consideration before spouting off about what you consider to be "wasting the devs' time".

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Originally Posted by TheRedChameleon

Im gonna try to not look at this thread anymore but I would encourage everyone to go read the interviews that Yoshi-p has done on promoting LGBT representation in video games. The man is very much pro-LGBT and pro-trans identities and I feel like you should take what Yoshi-p thinks into consideration before spouting off about what you consider to be "wasting the devs' time".

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Just because you're pro something doesn't mean that you have the means to push something forward.
I'm pro antihomeless - meaning I wish to give those who are homeless, homes - yet I can't afford to do this because I am financially incapable.

Furthermore, yes, he's all about pro-LGBT and pro-trans identities and yet we have two races that are gender locked. Let that sink in.

So yeah, it's about time and resources - not because he's pro something.

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

Yeah, that didn’t work out so well did it. It’s at best ignorant and, at worst, callous of you to assume ALL non conforming identities are equal. No one has said that here. This conversation is about non-binary, so gender NEUTRAL, not rabies gender or other true nonsense.

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The way it works is yesterdays "true nonsense" is today's "legitimate claim." The problem is who decides what is or isn't legitimate because ultimately one person's "legitimate claim" is another person's "true nonsense." Are you saying that you yourself dictates these terms or that these terms should be dictated by mob rule? The best way to avoid it is just to not bother with any of it in the first place otherwise you do turn it into a more slippery slope than it already is.