Selling Ultimate Weapon Ultima Is Apparently Not Against the ToS

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Originally Posted by Doozer

You could buy like 6.5 years of game time for $1200, or you could pay someone to play the game for you.

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Or you could use that money towards going on a vacation somewhere nice.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Anyone caught selling in-game services for real life money should have their account permanently deleted. That some players are bold enough to openly advertise their services through the party finder means that there's no real fear on their part. That needs to change.

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Hmm, I wonder if we could find out where the people that sell live, and then report them to their country's authorities. Then, instead of them getting their accounts permanently deleted, they get thrown in prison for tax evasion :D

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The raiders never had to sell or advertising selling runs, and there's only a tiny amount of them capable of doing ultimate content. They could have easily just done what they used to do with clear videos on world first races, have a mutually agreed moratorium on selling ultimate runs. they didn't. So to me, they get more of the blame for enabling people. The buyers are already in error, but the sellers chose to continue in it.

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That's a silly argument. Sellers have no market if people weren't willing to pay money for shinies. They simply provide a service. Does that make it right? It's debatable. Regardless, this is a non-issue if SE bothered to enforce their own polices. Neither party deserves blame over the one which allows the activity to continue. After all, if Square Enix doesn't care about the ToS, why are the players, regardless of skill range, going to respect it?

I honestly could care less about this. The game draws many different demographics of people and the rich are one of them. If they want to spend their $1200 on an item in a game rather than $1200 on a hooker and blow which would may or maY not lead to abuse then why not ? (Hookers are people too) I kid of course but in all seriousness this shouldn’t bother anyone. Think for a moment...if you were an avid ff14 player who works hard for disposable income, would you do it? If money were no object? Time to me is important and if I had the funds to buy a clear like that I totally would just cuz I want shiney weapon. But then reality sets in ....opens wallet....smoke comes out

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

Think for a moment...if you were an avid ff14 player who works hard for disposable income, would you do it? If money were no object?

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Money is no object to me. I bought the Odin and Shiva statues on a whim for the sake of the emotes. I've bought many other bonus merchandise related to FFXIV and last year I went to Distant Worlds in London as an early Christmas present to myself and my companion. I don't mean to come off as bragging, but I detest the idea that people with money are morally bankrupt. They're not always that way.

I wouldn't resort to the sort of depravity that comes with buying clears for real money. Only those with a lack of strong moral compass resort to such methods - and those players should be utterly condemned.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Money is no object to me. I bought the Odin and Shiva statues on a whim for the sake of the emotes. I've bought many other bonus merchandise related to FFXIV and last year I went to Distant Worlds in London as an early Christmas present to myself and my companion. I don't mean to come off as bragging, but I detest the idea that people with money are morally bankrupt. They're not always that way.

I wouldn't resort to the sort of depravity that comes with buying clears for real money. Only those with a lack of strong moral compass resort to such methods - and those players should be utterly condemned.

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Are you saying the action is immoral because it goes against the standards set by SE and the community? What is their is a divided between SE and the community? Or did I misunderstand, and you personally feel that the action is immoral, if that is the case I am sorry for misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

Are you saying the action is immoral because it goes against the standards set by SE and the community? What is their is a divided between SE and the community? Or did I misunderstand, and you personally feel that the action is immoral, if that is the case I am sorry for misunderstanding.

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On a personal level, I find such behaviour immoral.

On Square Enix's part, exchanging real money for in-game services is against the rules. It could and should be enforced better.

On a legal level, there's a lot of potential complications but online transactions are not as well protected against fraud and tax evasion in cases such as this. It'd be quite the headache for Square Enix if someone was scammed and it received media attention.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

On a personal level, I find such behaviour immoral.

On Square Enix's part, exchanging real money for in-game services is against the rules. It could and should be enforced better.

On a legal level, there's a lot of potential complications but online transactions are not as well protected against fraud and tax evasion in cases such as this. It'd be quite the headache for Square Enix if someone was scammed and it received media attention.

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Makes sense, I cannot comment on the personal level, since that varies from person-to-person and I have no understanding on the legal ramifications or how income will be taxed via such transactions. One aspect I will comment on is the part regarding the rules set by SE. Would it be ethical on the part of SE to pick and choose which aspects of the ToS they choose to enforce when it comes to using outside information? Where will they draw the line, does that mean they should go after streams that use ACT? At the core both are violations of the ToS, and to pick and choose which aspects of the ToS they will enforce when it comes to usage of outside information does seem tad unethical in my eyes. A part of me really thinks many people do not understand how many players would be punished for trivial infractions if SE started to enforce their own ToS better.

To me, this is no different from players picking up jump potions on mogstation. Both you pay some sort of currency to advance in the game. So, how is it different? If players are given an option to pay for ‘assistance’ they will take it. Why does it matter if it’s $20 on mogstation or $20 in game? To me it’s the same and I’m only spouting my 2cents. This isn’t going to make me lose sleep at night. If people have the money to pay $1200 for a glowy virtual thing, let them. How others spend their cash doesn’t bother me. Now, if you were spending my money or effecting the economy in the game that’s different

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

To me, this is no different from players picking up jump potions on mogstation. Both you pay some sort of currency to advance in the game. So, how is it different? If players are given an option to pay for ‘assistance’ they will take it. Why does it matter if it’s $20 on mogstation or $20 in game? To me it’s the same and I’m only spouting my 2cents. This isn’t going to make me lose sleep at night. If people have the money to pay $1200 for a glowy virtual thing, let them. How others spend their cash doesn’t bother me. Now, if you were spending my money or effecting the economy in the game that’s different

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Because the boosts are on the mog station, don't require you to give your account to someone, and the money goes to the company running the game instead of the guy in his basement.

Also, if I had the income to buy an entire ward, why not let me? Oh wait... Isn't this why the housing issue existed?

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Also, if I had the income to buy an entire ward, why not let me? Oh wait... Isn't this why the housing issue existed?

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You’re strawmanning with this statement comparing selling/buying unlimited content to someone buying up a limited resource.

The same people who complain about pay to win and greedy companies are probably the same ones defending RMT and cheating.

Some super luls to be had in here.

At some point, why even have a game? Just allow everyone to pay money directly for every item in the game and proceed to stand around the quicksand looking pretty.

Basically giving legitimacy to Electronic Art's statement on how unlocking everything with tons of money gives a sense of pride and accomplishment. L O L

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You’re strawmanning with this statement comparing selling/buying unlimited content to someone buying up a limited resource.

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But it didn't effect me at all, so there's no problem with housing.

Isn't that the whole argument to why it's okay? Because it doesn't effect them? Already had to deal with a DRG a few days ago who called us a bunch of slurs wiping on something, even though he was the cause. And he had the ultima weapon.

Again, I say to thee: I don't care if someone wants to buy their way thru content. The pricing is ridiculous and the weapons (for Ultima, anyway) are just shiny blue versions of the old ARR relics which will be obsolete when the currency changes. What I have an issue with, is using FALSE TAGS to advertise. I don't even care about them advertising but they fact that they are putting themselves at the top of the list, above LEGITIMATE party requests makes me rage. This aspect is going to become a major issue because new players (and old) will stop checking PF when its consistently 20 listings of ads that only 1% of the player base uses and/or cares about. It'll be Duty Finder and the occasional Crossparty between friends and/or Raid Groups. Which will exclude casual players from content, widening the skill gap even more and making it impossible for anyone who isn't hardcore to even get to point where they can do this crap. Using False Tags should be reportable and a certain number of reports should get the listing deleted. No bans, just getting the crap out of everyone's face. That's it.

People should care.

Do you think people would tolerate it if a subscription game such as ff14 suddenly had pay to win avenues to complete content and get high end game gear? There is already a huge stigma towards pay to win aspects of games, even in FREE TO PLAY mmo's.

The fact of the matter is people who actually dare to claim that the rmt and cheating going on right now is somehow ok and doesn't hurt the game is dead wrong. I would bet that if the Mogstation started selling Ultimate weapons and achievements with no strings attached there would be outcry like we wouldn't believe. But somehow a lot of people in here seem to think it is ok because we have a middleman aka other players doing it.

Don't get it wrong guys. What is happening right now is pay to win. It is just that the money is going somewhere else. If you guys dare claim that is ok and it becomes "normalized" then you are basically asking for the Mogstation to provide the same services.

There is a reason stuff like this is against TOS and should be punished. Why let the players do it if you can do it yourself and probably for much cheaper?

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

But it didn't effect me at all, so there's no problem with housing.

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You’re still strawmanning.

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Isn't that the whole argument to why it's okay? Because it doesn't effect them?

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People like myself who don’t concern themselves with content selling aren’t agreeing that it’s “okay”—they’re just arguing to drop it because it’s obvious that the higher ups don’t care, so why should we? We don’t have to power to stop it, only GMs do. I’m not going to waste time and energy on reports that are going to be largely ignored.

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Already had to deal with a DRG a few days ago who called us a bunch of slurs wiping on something, even though he was the cause. And he had the ultima weapon.

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Okay? And so the DRG was an ass. What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

People like myself who don’t concern themselves with content selling aren’t agreeing that it’s “okay”—they’re just arguing to drop it because it’s obvious that the higher ups don’t care, so why should we? We don’t have to power to stop it, only GMs do. I’m not going to waste time and energy on reports that are going to be largely ignored.

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If you don't care then why bother posting. Seem counter intuitive to me.

If you think the current situation is wrong and shouldn't happen then why come in here and try and dissuade people from voicing that it is wrong and it shouldn't happen?

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Originally Posted by Aviars

If you don't care then why bother posting. Seem counter intuitive to me.

If you think the current situation is wrong and shouldn't happen then why come in here and try and dissuade people from voicing that it is wrong and it shouldn't happen?

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Because it’s a public forum, and I’m allowed to post my own thoughts and opinions on the matter? I don’t see where I’m “trying to dissuade” people, unless you mean I’m trying to “dissuade” by saying that one side is arguing in this thread are doing so because they don’t see the need to report things that are going to just be ignored. People are more than free to spend their time doing whatever they please, as am I.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Because it’s a public forum, and I’m allowed to post my own thoughts and opinions on the matter? I don’t see where I’m “trying to dissuade” people, unless you mean I’m trying to “dissuade” by saying that one side is arguing in this thread are doing so because they don’t see the need to report things that are going to just be ignored. People are more than free to spend their time doing whatever they please, as am I.

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You missed the meaning of my post. You can't claim to not care either way and then offer a opinion on said matters. It's called contradiction.

And I'll say this again, if you do feel that it is wrong, then you shouldn't be telling people that they shouldn't bother reporting it. Reporting cheating and rmt should happen because if we didn't then SE truly wouldn't acknowledge there is a problem. If people don't complain, then it must not be a problem, then it becomes normalized and now that is telling others that rules just don't matter anymore.

In the end, supporting apathy is supporting people breaking the rules. Just the way the cookie crumbles.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

And I'll say this again, if you do feel that it is wrong, then you shouldn't be telling people that they shouldn't bother reporting it. Reporting cheating and rmt should happen because if we didn't then SE truly wouldn't acknowledge there is a problem. If people don't complain, then it must not be a problem, then it becomes normalized and now that is telling others that rules just don't matter anymore..

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Do you believe that apathy comes from nowhere? People have reported them. Nothing is ever done, thus it's hard to care when your efforts fall on deaf ear. Cactuar, in particular, has a market bot issue yet despite the whole server widely aware of it; some going out of their way to record such activity, SE does nothing. Eventually, it gets tiring to make reports when nothing ever happens.

Doesn't really matter where the apathy comes from. When someone actively supports a apathetic stance and peddles it to others they are (inadvertently or not) making the problem worse. Personally I am against such a thing happening.

I understand some have given up, but people shouldn't try to convince others to give up fighting against something that is WRONG. If anything that is also immoral and WRONG.

Oh please. It's just about losing exclusivity, which is the secret currency of FFXIV. If Mog started selling replica versions of hi-end gear (like Ultimate), then all the whining about skill-gap and difficulty would disappear. Because then the casuals who only care about aesthetics (like me) would have no reason to step foot in a hi-end duty and the mid/hard cores would be safe to duke it out with each other without having to worry about 'greys' like me trying to derp through a farm/learning party (I would NEVER. That Savage gear is horrendous). Although I would welcome it if Mog did sell 'Pay-to-Win' items, which would traditionally be overpowered weapons/gear/skills because better gear saves lives (anyone who's been doing Alliance Raid Roulette regularly can attest to this) with the added bonus of all the salt it would cause. The ad spam in PF however, is extremely annoying and should be destroyed.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

Doesn't really matter where the apathy comes from. When someone actively supports a apathetic stance and peddles it to others they are (inadvertently or not) making the problem worse. Personally I am against such a thing happening.

I understand some have given up, but people shouldn't try to convince others to give up fighting against something that is WRONG. If anything that is also immoral and WRONG.

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Love your passion on the topic but really people paying for runs have existed since the start of the game and they are still here. You may just want to get used to it. This isn’t a rebellion lol it’s some people selling runs whoop de do. If it bothers you so much then do something about it. Ie go into discord and take some shots dealing with these people and send them in to SE. whining accomplishes nada

I should probably state, I don’t agree with these people selling runs, but I have accepted that it exists. I still stand by on my opinion that this is no different than a jump potion in that you are paying currency to advance your character in the game. But....mogstation....well, morals tell me to practise hard and work my butt off to succeed in the most honest way. Paying for runs or jump potions is cheating in this sense. If jump potions are ok, I’ve accepted it. Because I lump paying for runs into this category, I have also accepted it.....if it makes sense. (I don’t always have the best way of explaining things)

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

Love your passion on the topic but really people paying for runs have existed since the start of the game and they are still here. You may just want to get used to it. This isn’t a rebellion lol it’s some people selling runs whoop de do. If it bothers you so much then do something about it. Ie go into discord and take some shots dealing with these people and send them in to SE. whining accomplishes nada

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There's a difference between paying for a group of experienced players to run content with you and paying someone to play on your account and do the content.

Not sure about UwU, but if its on par with UCoB then selling runs should be quite difficult. Its not really the kind of content you can carry people through easily.

The only way I see this being a problem is if people are literally handing over their account to players to beat the content for them. Which IS against the ToS.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

Although I would welcome it if Mog did sell 'Pay-to-Win' items, which would traditionally be overpowered weapons/gear/skills because better gear saves lives (anyone who's been doing Alliance Raid Roulette regularly can attest to this) with the added bonus of all the salt it would cause.

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I've seen players with low level gear outlive some other people that are actually over geared. Yes better gear can help you live longer but it only delays the inevitable as gear doesn't teach you common sense on how to handle mechs. It's possible to gear up a character from other things so Savage isn't necessary unless you like the challenge. P2W items would be a real step back and players would have no reason to log in regularly if they could just buy their gear instead.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Not sure about UwU, but if its on par with UCoB then selling runs should be quite difficult. Its not really the kind of content you can carry people through easily.

The only way I see this being a problem is if people are literally handing over their account to players to beat the content for them. Which IS against the ToS.

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That is probably the only way they can sell it, so even if its for Gil (which honestly wont be the case in many groups) they are going against the ToS by using the account of the person. Thats why I am so annoyed at this. They are going against two of the important parts of the ToS (RMT and account sharing) and will probably not be punished.

I honestly wonder if the JP side of XIV's management is even aware of how regularly ToS violations go unpunished. They could just be looking at the number of bans and assuming that things are being kept under control when they obviously aren't.

The problem has been snowballing in every regard whether it be botting, hacking, or RMTing because people know they can get away with it and making statements about how seriously they take ToS violations then not actually acting on them just sends a negative message.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

There's a difference between paying for a group of experienced players to run content with you and paying someone to play on your account and do the content.

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Mmm this is a grey area. If I’m going to be away on work and I let my nephew on my account to play while I’m gone, is this wrong? How people who play let their wives, gf, husband, bf, etc log in with their account? I dunno I know what you are getting at but for arguments sake I’m bringing up these counter points

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

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Generally I don't think there is anything gray about it. Regardless of whether it's a friend, relative, or your BFF, account sharing is still a big no. Essentially if something happens to or on your account whilst someone else is using it, you will only have yourself to blame and the game provider won't do anything about it as you had total control over whether to share it or not.

It's a bit of a don't ask don't tell thing, as it only takes one person to see you mention you share your account and they could report you. Of course offline games you can easily get away with letting other people play, but online can be more tricky if the player is not careful.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

Mmm this is a grey area. If I’m going to be away on work and I let my nephew on my account to play while I’m gone, is this wrong? How people who play let their wives, gf, husband, bf, etc log in with their account? I dunno I know what you are getting at but for arguments sake I’m bringing up these counter points

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Do you pay your nephew to play on your account and beat content for you? Read what I said.

Account sharing is account sharing, persecute both equally or don't persecute it at all.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

People like myself who don’t concern themselves with content selling aren’t agreeing that it’s “okay”—they’re just arguing to drop it because it’s obvious that the higher ups don’t care, so why should we? We don’t have to power to stop it, only GMs do. I’m not going to waste time and energy on reports that are going to be largely ignored.

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Based on personal experience, it feels like the higher ups don't care for bots too, or anyone who buys RMT (which promotes it.) They don't care about bugs until they become a serious issue (Ungarmax). They don't listen to advice properly, such as with greed only when that was a thing, and how we all kept saying it was going to be horrible and Square was basically not caring because we weren't Japanese. They only somewhat listen to advice. While they fixed SCH's MP issue, we still have things like SAM's still doing less than a BLM or MNK and bring literally no useful utility outside of a tp user dying.

So ya, I think Square not knowing what they're doing is pretty common knowledge at this point.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Okay? And so the DRG was an ass. What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

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I specifically mentioned this DRG for a simple reason. A player, a clearly toxic one at that, managed to scramble enough money to purchase a UWU clear. This player proceeds to wanna show just how cool his weapon is, but he has no idea how to play. I want to note, this was Tsukuyomi. If he really did clear it without paying out the money, why would this easy trial be an issue for him?

As someone said earlier in the thread, you can tell who cleared it, and who paid for it. And so far I've yet to see anyone with a UWU weapon actually be good at the game. But glad to know he can rub it in my face and call me a bunch of slurs.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I honestly wonder if the JP side of XIV's management is even aware of how regularly ToS violations go unpunished. They could just be looking at the number of bans and assuming that things are being kept under control when they obviously aren't.

The problem has been snowballing in every regard whether it be botting, hacking, or RMTing because people know they can get away with it and making statements about how seriously they take ToS violations then not actually acting on them just sends a negative message.

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Reminder, like I mentioned in another post, I had an FC member openly admit that he bots. He gets 99% of his mats through using his bot program, even said how much he paid for it. He isn't banned.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I honestly wonder if the JP side of XIV's management is even aware of how regularly ToS violations go unpunished.

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I'm not convinced that they're aware.

It's hard to say what the cause of that is.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

That is probably the only way they can sell it, so even if its for Gil (which honestly wont be the case in many groups) they are going against the ToS by using the account of the person. Thats why I am so annoyed at this. They are going against two of the important parts of the ToS (RMT and account sharing) and will probably not be punished.

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Its against the ToS because sharing account information is against the ToS, not because of RMT.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Do you pay your nephew to play on your account and beat content for you? Read what I said.

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People here have been arguing that they want something to be done about those run sellers because they're violating the ToS by sharing account information and that they consider that wrong because the ToS says that you're not allowed to share your information (despite that being most likely just SEs way to tell you "if you lose anything because you gave out your info, thats not our problem")

If you want to apply the logic "It needs to be punished, because the ToS says so", why is it relevant if money is exchanging hands?
The married couple and the two brothers I know who are sharing accounts are as much in violation of that part of the ToS as someone giving out their information to a stranger.
Should they be reported aswell then? Or is that "okay-sharing"? And if so: Is it only the exchange of money that makes it not okay?

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Originally Posted by Vidu

People here have been arguing that they want something to be done about those run sellers because they're violating the ToS by sharing account information and that they consider that wrong because the ToS says that you're not allowed to share your information (despite that being most likely just SEs way to tell you "if you lose anything because you gave out your info, thats not our problem")

If you want to apply the logic "It needs to be punished, because the ToS says so", why is it relevant if money is exchanging hands?
The married couple and the two brothers I know who are sharing accounts are as much in violation of that part of the ToS as someone giving out their information to a stranger.
Should they be reported aswell then? Or is that "okay-sharing"? And if so: Is it only the exchange of money that makes it not okay?

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Is literally any of that what I said.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I specifically mentioned this DRG for a simple reason. A player, a clearly toxic one at that, managed to scramble enough money to purchase a UWU clear. This player proceeds to wanna show just how cool his weapon is, but he has no idea how to play. I want to note, this was Tsukuyomi. If he really did clear it without paying out the money, why would this easy trial be an issue for him?

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This is exactly the sort of thing i was talking about earlier.

Having one of these sorry excuses for human beings parading around and crowing about how great they are for having done something they didn't actually do and looking down on and throwing slurs at everyone else, and blaming us for things they themselves cause because they think they are infallible for having done said thing they did not actually do is incredibly aggravating, downright rage-inducing even.

I call BS on the statement that the rest of the playerbase is not negatively affected by this.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Do you pay your nephew to play on your account and beat content for you? Read what I said.

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Of course I don’t. You totally missed my point. Maybe you need to read over my post, but no need to be a prude in your replies. As well, everyone has a different moral compass. What you think is not ok others may deem ok. If rules aren’t being enforced then it’s all the same technically. What this is coming down to are differential morals and it’s not going to stop unless the are consequences. Obviously there isn’t. The inmates run this prison so watch your bunghole....unless you are into that sort of thing .