LOLSE, We're not wearing 270 STR to hold hate, c'mon now...

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Originally Posted by Dicejss

Tank wearing STR accessories is like healers wearing INT accessories before the Mind stat change it's so stupid. Tanks are acting like they are providing an extra 50% dps by stacking STR instead of focusing on doing their job as a tank by soaking dmg and holding threat.

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Not sure if you're blind or simply just ignorant. But it's already been repeatedly stated many times now in both this thread and many other threads recently that a Tank can do their job just fine while also wearing STR accessories.

But since it seems you need someone to repeat the point for you yet again. VIT does literally absolutely nothing for Tanks but pad their HP out more. It doesn't reduce incoming damage or increase healing received at all PERIOD! So as long as a Tank has enough HP to handle Tank busters just fine in boss fights they don't need more HP.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's what I would call a "bad scaled content". On your example, Tankbusters should do around 40k if you're supposed to be ilvl300 to enter.

Or, even better, if SE really want to enforce tank stance : Tankbusters should do 90k and your tank stance should either reduce damage by 50% or increase HP max and healing received by 100%.

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I think we'd have to get in the realm of 100k+ tankbusters, there is simply too much mitigation avail. Even at 100k, even if invuln cds had no effect, it's easy to get 50% mitigation or more by stacking cds. Obviously it would depend greatly on their frequency and the frequency of other mechanics, but still. When I saw all the cds available on my war now I thought for sure we'd see tankbusters in the realm of 100k. Doesn't sound like it's happened yet but nobody knows what savage will bring. Maybe savage will be the ace up the dev's sleeves to get tanks to wear their shiny new vitality accessories lol.

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Originally Posted by Dicejss

Tank wearing STR accessories is like healers wearing INT accessories before the Mind stat change it's so stupid. Tanks are acting like they are providing an extra 50% dps by stacking STR instead of focusing on doing their job as a tank by soaking dmg and holding threat.

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Firstly, you're analogy is nonsensical. Healers had cleric stance so they could instantly swap MND into INT to DPS. There was never a reason to stack anything but MND for them.

Secondly, it's been done to death, but tanks can contribute almost as much DPS as a real DPS, if they push for it. And having tons of health is only useful to a point.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Doesn't sound like it's happened yet but nobody knows what savage will bring. Maybe savage will be the ace up the dev's sleeves to get tanks to wear their shiny new vitality accessories lol.

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I don't think it's likely. I'm holding out judgement till savage is released but it kind of sounds like the intention of SB was to remove all challenge from FF14. We used to think the point of varying difficulty levels was to please different groups. Those wanting a very tough challenge would go to the extreme primals and savage content. Those wanting a more casual laid back experience would do dungeons, normal modes, and 24man raids. SB dumbed down jobs and the current ex primals are largely a joke so it seems to be sending the message that SE no longer wants anything that's not casual content in ff14.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

SB dumbed down jobs and the current ex primals are largely a joke so it seems to be sending the message that SE no longer wants anything that's not casual content in ff14.

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To be fair, it's not like ravana and bismarck ex were all that difficult when they were released, either. Really the only difficulty has ever been getting a group of 8 to fire on all cylinders, at least for those without statics. Once you learn and know the fights they repeat 100% without deviation, save for possible phase skip type stuff from having great dps. And that's when it get's stale.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

To be fair, it's not like ravana and bismarck ex were all that difficult when they were released, either. Really the only difficulty has ever been getting a group of 8 to fire on all cylinders, at least for those without statics. Once you learn and know the fights they repeat 100% without deviation, save for possible phase skip type stuff from having great dps. And that's when it get's stale.

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I still feel like bismark and ravana ex were fairly difficult when they were current. I'm not implying they were super impossible but still there were some nasty dps and heal checks in those fight and the mechanics where pretty unforgiving.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I still feel like bismark and ravana ex were fairly difficult when they were current.

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I'm pretty sure this is largely thanks to the Cross-world Party Finder system that back then didn't exist.
Altho, yes... Susano and Lakshmi has so little an amount of phases it feels weird...

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I still feel like bismark and ravana ex were fairly difficult when they were current. I'm not implying they were super impossible but still there were some nasty dps and heal checks in those fight and the mechanics where pretty unforgiving.

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The DPS checks weren't nasty at all, even back then. The average player's competency was the biggest issue. Plus, everyone wanted to roll full Machinist parties before MCH actually got improved, and I vaguely recall it being statistically proven that MCHs just could not meet the DPS checks for fights whatsoever when they were initially added.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's what I would call a "bad scaled content". On your example, Tankbusters should do around 40k if you're supposed to be ilvl300 to enter.

Or, even better, if SE really want to enforce tank stance : Tankbusters should do 90k and your tank stance should either reduce damage by 50% or increase HP max and healing received by 100%.

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If you design the contents to not allow you to have "spare" mitigation even while using tank stance and invulnerability cds most people will struggle to clear and complain about the raids being too hard, just like how gordias required really high dps to clear and most people weren't good enough.

Personally even though I never managed to clear it pre echo, midas savage is my favourite raid tier. It has what I'd consider a good balance between dps/mitigation/healing/mechanic checks. Gordias dps check were really tight for groups whose tanks/healers weren't outputting high dps, while creator was lacking everywhere compared to midas when it comes to difficulty. To be fair though, if the dps checks of the raid is like creator, you shouldn't make the mitigation/healing checks too difficult lol. If you want difficult mitigation/healing checks then the dps check should also be difficult.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

If you design the contents to not allow you to have "spare" mitigation even while using tank stance and invulnerability cds most people will struggle to clear and complain about the raids being too hard, just like how gordias required really high dps to clear and most people weren't good enough.

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Gordias required high DPS. To do high DPS, good gear is required but not enough, you need high level of skill.
This would be the same here. High HP would be required because it's basically what your ilvl is worth when you're a tank. Knowing the fight and how you manage your CD would be tied to your skill as a player. Besides, on top of that scaling, I'd also like mitigation to be more active and thus, more tied to player skill. Like I said to Zojha, having a player enough skilled with his mitigation that he can remove one or two VIT acc for STR acc melded vit VIT, yeah, it's fine, but not full STR.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

If you design the contents to not allow you to have "spare" mitigation even while using tank stance and invulnerability cds most people will struggle to clear and complain about the raids being too hard

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I think what really annoys me is that this complaining seems to work. Or to put it a different way, when balance is spoken of all we hear is about how it shouldn't be balanced for the top 1% of people who raid. yet when only 1% can clear savage content it's "whah I can't clear it make it easier so we can all do it." Well which is it is savage made for the best of the best or casual content for everyone? SE seems to think the latter now.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Gordias required high DPS. To do high DPS, good gear is required but not enough, you need high level of skill.
This would be the same here. High HP would be required because it's basically what your ilvl is worth when you're a tank. Knowing the fight and how you manage your CD would be tied to your skill as a player. Besides, on top of that scaling, I'd also like mitigation to be more active and thus, more tied to player skill. Like I said to Zojha, having a player enough skilled with his mitigation that he can remove one or two VIT acc for STR acc melded vit VIT, yeah, it's fine, but not full STR.

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Yeah it'd be nice if raids actually go back to midas savage level of dps/mitigation/healing/mechanic checks, though sadly the majority of the playerbase don't agree with me/us, and the devs seem to have made up their mind about how much of the playerbase they want to be able to clear savage raids (what happened to normal mode being the one accessible for casual players to experience the story lol). I don't think I need to remind you, but the majority of tanks who cleared creator savage were in tank stance most of the time while tanking something (even the OTs when they pick adds or tank the boss after tank swaps), making the mitigation checks harder than that would inevitably reduce the number of players who are able to clear the raid.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I think what really annoys me is that this complaining seems to work. Or to put it a different way, when balance is spoken of all we hear is about how it shouldn't be balanced for the top 1% of people who raid. yet when only 1% can clear savage content it's "whah I can't clear it make it easier so we can all do it." Well which is it is savage made for the best of the best or casual content for everyone? SE seems to think the latter now.

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It just feels weird to me. I thought that the two difficulty raid system we have now was adopted to allow casual players to experience the raid and story from the normal mode, as well as to allow raiders to have challenging contents. It should be fine to have only a small percentage of the playerbase clearing the savage raids, but they ended up lowering the difficulty of the savage raids to increase clear rate. Now they're promising a new challenging content that'll be released every odd patch, which is good and all, but wasn't that what savage mode was meant to be? I wouldn't be surprised anymore if people end up complaining about that new raid mode being too difficult and the devs choose to lower the difficulty again.

Here's the thing
normal mode raids (and 24-man) are speak-and-spell difficulty. Really, if you read your tooltips and have a small amount of hand-eye coordination (you can beat world 1 of Super Mario Bros 3, for example), you can clear normal mode fairly easily. This isn't a difficulty for "casual players," this is a difficulty for people who leave the game for months at a time and re-sub just to do the story every 9 months.
Gordias (savage) was fucking stupid difficulty. Without the ability to ignore Judgment Nisi with exploits, the clear rate would have been half of what it was. Midas (savage) was better, but actually still extremely punishing and very hard. These were both raids that only 1-5% of the playerbase would finish while they were relevant. I think on my server there were like ~60 people (not groups) who got a Gordias clear before 3.1.

This game has nothing in between those two difficulty tiers except EX primals, which are often irrelevant a few weeks into a patch and are only one fight per patch. So what is the portion of the playerbase who is strong enough to clear EX primals but not strong enough to clear something like Gordias (even with all the time in the world) supposed to do? I actually think that almost anyone who *wants* to play their class well can reach this level, so that's a lot of people with not a lot to do. Also added onto this is the fact that the actual rewards for raiding are not that good, so some of those who are good enough to clear Gordias/Midas level stuff might not be motivated to spend the long hours required to do so.

I think that Creator (S) through Second Coil difficulty is much healthier for the game. It's a more reasonable challenge for a typical player and the super top tier guys can have fun maximizing their DPS or playing with weird compositions. Personally, I cleared Gordias and Midas in their respective patches despite scheduling issues that prevented my group from running that often, but I did not enjoy the learning process. The fights were fairly fun once you were beating them reliably, but they were way, WAY too punishing during learning. There were way too many insta-wipes and unwinnable situations too early into the fights. Comparatively, I had the most fun learning Second Coil and a couple of its savage fights. I skipped Melusine (S) because I got burnt out on Nael (S), but Avatar/Rafflesia (S) were neat.

As far as Savage raiding goes. If people are capable of handling the EX Primals but not the Savage raiding then I think it's really a matter of needing to work on improving yourself as a player and grouping up with other competent players. Since Savage raiding is meant to be very difficult end-game content. naturally this also means needing to communicate with others. So if someone happens to be much too casual or anti-social to possibly handle it then they honestly shouldn't even be worrying about such things in the first place.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Now they're promising a new challenging content that'll be released every odd patch, which is good and all, but wasn't that what savage mode was meant to be? I wouldn't be surprised anymore if people end up complaining about that new raid mode being too difficult and the devs choose to lower the difficulty again.

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I think they lost a part of the raiding community with savage.
Back in 2.x, you had people who thought Coil was too difficult. For them, we had Alex normal
Back in 2.x, you had people who thought Coil was too easy. For them, we had Alex Savage
Back in 2.x, you had people who thought Coil was just fine. For them, we had...pretty much nothing.

So, I think Omega Savage will be close to Coil difficulty, and the new super hard content will cover the...masochist...part of the raiding population :p

Yeah I guess you're right, the gap between ex trials and gordias/midas savage were too big, leaving no content between them makes it hard for people to get good enough for savage. I was thinking that they should've added more contents between normal and savage mode.

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Originally Posted by Vallamaria

Not sure if you're blind or simply just ignorant. But it's already been repeatedly stated many times now in both this thread and many other threads recently that a Tank can do their job just fine while also wearing STR accessories.
doesn't reduce incoming damage or increase healing received So as long as a Tank has enough HP to handle Tank busters just fine in boss fights they don't need more HP.

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No it doesn't reduce damage taken or increase healing received but you know what it does do? It makes sure the tank doesn't die from being hit by tank busters and other mechanics the boss could be doing or from doing a big pull in a dungeon. Of course your STR tanks are going to exist until SE makes it where you can't do it anymore or they just change the way they do tank damage again. But by all means if that 5% extra damage makes you feel better stacking STR acc instead of VIT acc go for it.

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Originally Posted by Dicejss

No it doesn't reduce damage taken or increase healing received but you know what it does do? It makes sure the tank doesn't die from being hit by tank busters and other mechanics the boss could be doing or from doing a big pull in a dungeon. Of course your STR tanks are going to exist until SE makes it where you can't do it anymore or they just change the way they do tank damage again. But by all means if that 5% extra damage makes you feel better stacking STR acc instead of VIT acc go for it.

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Using your cooldowns appropriately does this better than stacking unnecessary vit.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

*snip*

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I'd just like to point out that in my forays of DPSing, I've found Diversion and Elusive jump to be woefully awful. I am forced to use Diversion as SAM all the time, and I still remain a Higanbana tick away from stealing aggro. Elusive Jump on the other hand is so awful that I have to plan for it by saving a jump so I don't waste a GCD and also saying a prayer that it doesn't reduce my enmity by throwing me off the arena or into a cleave even though I faced it in the proper direction.


No, seriously. Elusive is such a damn crapshoot that I have time and time again considered deleting it and the worst part is I usually take aggro right back

Aggro reduction don't mean shit when your tanks are mouth breathers

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Elusive Jump on the other hand is so awful that I have to plan for it by saving a jump so I don't waste a GCD and also saying a prayer that it doesn't reduce my enmity by throwing me off the arena or into a cleave even though I faced it in the proper direction.


No, seriously. Elusive is such a damn crapshoot that I have time and time again considered deleting it and the worst part is I usually take aggro right back

Aggro reduction don't mean shit when your tanks are mouth breathers

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Use a gcd while moving away from the boss, use elusive. You get minimal clipping, you shed aggro and you can land a positional if you run away properly. No need to save a jump.

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Originally Posted by Erys

Use a gcd while moving away from the boss, use elusive. You get minimal clipping, you shed aggro and you can land a positional if you run away properly. No need to save a jump.

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I can envision this, but won't the act of hitting the boss cause me to face the boss, which will cause me to elusive away from it instead of (Presumably) into it? Or god forbid get me cleaved because elusive has a fraghuge range for some asinine reason

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

I can envision this, but won't the act of hitting the boss cause me to face the boss, which will cause me to elusive away from it instead of (Presumably) into it? Or god forbid get me cleaved because elusive has a fraghuge range for some asinine reason

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If you are moving while executing a gcd, you will look to the target the moment you hit the gcd but then continue your merry way away from your enemy. Thus making this a thing.

All they need to do is add enough STR to make the new ACC better then the 270 Slaying ACC and EZPZ.

although I do realize that if they left it the way it was I would be pulling 4k+ dps in sus/lex right now, the way tanks work if the 320 fending gear had STR and VIT with a 1/1 stat weight tanks would be on par with dps lol