Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

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Considering damage generates threat, yes; Deliverance does give a good WAR threat, especially considering their aggro combo is also their primary damage combo. It's a bit like Sword Oath tanking; requires skill.

This thread just keeps delivering!

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

This thread just keeps delivering!

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Ikr its like watching the republican debate.

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Originally Posted by Erit

Considering damage generates threat, yes; Deliverance does give a good WAR threat, especially considering their aggro combo is also their primary damage combo. It's a bit like Sword Oath tanking; requires skill.

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Damage generates threat, but the enmity multiplier on Defiance generates more threat than the increased damage from Deliverance. Unchained negates the damage penalty, thus allowing for even higher threat generation. The more threat you generate in your opener, the more time you can spend in Deliverance alternating between SE -> SP (your 2 debuffs you want to keep up as much as possible, especially when not in Defiance). You also want to open with SE combo, which is only possible in Defiance, under Unchained.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If i'm not doing anything but DPSing maybe. Tank is probably dead if they do more then a few mobs. It actually isn't hard to DPS in regular instances below 60. However once you get to 60 its room pulls only. On bosses I can actually DPS some times fine.

However, its still nowhere near tank levels of damage. It shouldn't be.

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Actually, it's probably better for the Healer to DPS than it is the tank. As tanks will put out DPS no matter what ( even in vit). A good healer will DPS and it will have a instant effect on the run as you go from 0 dps to some dps. :D and all healer's can do it...even past 60. SCH's can stone skin and aloqium with fairy heals and WHM can spam holy which has an AoE stun to it.

But not all healer's should do it. ;x you gotta git gud first. Other wise the tanks, even the one's in vit, end up dead. ;( and being dead makes the run even slower.

^this. always depends on if the healer still has a big enough window to dps before having to heal again. if you can barely finish casting holy cause the tank is dropping too low then he should have better sticked to his vit gear.

So the reason for building a tank for STR is more DPS??? why?? cause they want to speed run through dungeons?? Whats the rush? I always take dungeons slow as my pally and i haven't had anyone complain yet

although i agree at some point paladins and other VIT tanks need to focus on strength from what i heard after you have at least 8000 HP you should stop stacking VIT

since my main is a healer i look at it from a healer prospective, does the healer really want to sit their and spam heals and be bored out of their mind or do they want to also do DPS. I think most would have the latter, i had a WAR in manor dungeon that was really squishy, STR based, and it was so boring

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Originally Posted by mirellol

Tell me again how great STR gear is on a TANK in leveling content. The cost is always the healer's DPS. Keep that in mind when going STR in leveling content.

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It's great in any 50+ content when you have i130+ gear. You had a bad tank, nothing to do with accessories. If you're a WHM you shouldn't really have a problem with using Holy thanks to the stun because the tanks shouldn't be taking damage and have Regen for 8s.

Pentamelded accessories are cheaper than before. Get yours today!

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Originally Posted by PogueX

So the reason for building a tank for STR is more DPS??? why?? cause they want to speed run through dungeons?? Whats the rush? I always take dungeons slow as my pally and i haven't had anyone complain yet

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End game raids have dps checks and enrage timers, tanks with better dps help a lot there, especially during progression when dps are still undergeared.
But DPS is only one of the reasons, majority of tank skills scales off STR (which includes all of the self-heals), Wheres other than Divine Veil and Thrill of Battle, I cant think of any other tank skill scales of VIT. Living Death is actually worse with more VIT since the healers have to heal the DRK more to get rid of the debuff.
More VIT in the end is just more buffer, good CD usage is what makes a tank less squishy.
Lastly, WAR is squishy during mannor since they lack any good mitigation skill at that level.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

... You also want to open with SE combo, which is only possible in Defiance, under Unchained.

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Possible in Deliverance with a NIN support, Smokescreen on the DRG/MNK(?), and Quelling Strikes on the BRD/MCH/BLM. Granted you will be rotating more BB's because they're still gonna tail you pretty hard.

I pug pretty much everything so I have different healers when I am tanking. When I am healing, If i have a tank that is in str acc he will lose quite a lot of health because he does not have vit where he needs it. War are the main transgressors in this regard. If they can avoid damage then it doesn't become an issue and I can spend more time in CS than having to pop out and constantly heal them. If they have less health and they take a full on hit with no mitigation (which happens more often than not) that means a larger percentage of health just went missing. That means less time I can stay in CS. On tank stance versus dps stance that means it becomes more likely that the DPS that are doing their job correctly and to the best of their classes ability will be pulling aggro or the healer that is also dpsing will pull aggro as Tank stance increases the amount of emnity gained while DPS stance does not. DPS stance was designed with OT in mind so the other tank can do dps without fearing he will pull aggro from the main tank.

And honestly, like hell will I take a tank into savage with STR acc on. Where you need every little bit of wiggle room available, having less health is a handicap. Human error happens way too much and never in your favor.

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Originally Posted by DestinovaTrueblade

End game raids have dps checks and enrage timers, tanks with better dps help a lot there, especially during progression when dps are still undergeared.
But DPS is only one of the reasons, majority of tank skills scales off STR (which includes all of the self-heals), Wheres other than Divine Veil and Thrill of Battle, I cant think of any other tank skill scales of VIT. Living Death is actually worse with more VIT since the healers have to heal the DRK more to get rid of the debuff.
More VIT in the end is just more buffer, good CD usage is what makes a tank less squishy.
Lastly, WAR is squishy during mannor since they lack any good mitigation skill at that level.

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Benediction says hello. IF you are using Living Dead in dungeons then you have a problem. That means someone messed up (either you overestimated a healers ability or they popped into CS and you just took way too much damage before the CD came off and they could get out of it). I have all three healers at 60 and have never had an issue healing a tank to max when they are getting their faces smashed in except on AST as they have less emergency OGC heals compared to the other two healers. I haven't played it much since their buff so that may have changed for them quite a bit.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

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I never denied that Defiance generates more threat than Deliverance. I simply equated it to Sword Oath tanking; you deal more damage but require more coordination and competence to maintain aggro. WARs reach the peak of their power when stance-dancing anyway, so the most capable WARs can Deliverance tank with minimal issues unless some other part of the group is cripplingly inept.

Even the best tanks need their tank stance for certain portions of a fight, but the best tanks can also get away with switching to DPS stance or dropping Grit and going nuts for other portions of the fight. Hell, even I can find windows to drop Grit and go ham, and I'm one of the most inept tanks that I know.

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Originally Posted by mirellol

Tell me again how great STR gear is on a TANK in leveling content. The cost is always the healer's DPS. Keep that in mind when going STR in leveling content.

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This is particularly important past Sohm Al. Going into Dusk Vigil and Sohm Al in 130 gear is overgearing the content, so there's potential room for full STR accessories, but you can't overgear the later dungeons to the same degree, so STR is a lot riskier. Aery and Vault in particular are already healing intensive.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Aery and Vault in particular are already healing intensive.

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What in aery is healing intensive? That's one of the most boring dungeons I've ever run, and one of the most anticlimactic battles. The boss of aohm al is way more healing intensive than the boss of aery. For vault it's only the last boss that's somewhat healing intensive, assuming people arn't epic failing mechanics. My problem with vault was almost always the dps, not the tanks. Ranged dps that always want to attack from absolute maximum range on opposite sides of the room so aoe heals miss them.

Really though to me the way to help healers isn't just slapping a bit more hp on, it's learning to use cooldowns properly.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

What in aery is healing intensive?

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They're more intensive than the other leveling dungeons, I should have clarified I meant comparatively. I've had a tank die within two globals on the first pull a few times actually because of a lack of VIT. If the tank's gear is caught up it's not too bad but as with most "dragon" dungeons, the mobs there hit harder (Stone Vigil NM and HM were the same way, Sohm Al is similar). Vault's a bit intensive on the last of the big "rush" pulls right before the first boss and with the Dullahans because of the back to back AoE, as well as the final boss of course.

Sohm Al's last boss can be a bit rough in the same way Vault's last boss can be, too, I'll give you that. It just doesn't stick out as much because you can overgear it to a bigger extent I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

They're more intensive than the other leveling dungeons, I should have clarified I meant comparatively. I've had a tank die within two globals on the first pull a few times actually because of a lack of VIT.

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Your problem was the tank's defense not vit gear. If a trash pull is wiping out roughly 10k hp in 4 seconds and extra 500 isn't going to change anything. I tanked aery in 130 and didn't see anywhere near that kind of incoming damage so that's just a fail tank. Aery is just quite possibly the most boring dungeon in the whole game. Also in valut the aoe's can be stunned, and there's always cooldowns. I'm just saying it sounds like you're dealing more with fail players and that's something vit gear won't change.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

What in aery is healing intensive? That's one of the most boring dungeons I've ever run, and one of the most anticlimactic battles. The boss of aohm al is way more healing intensive than the boss of aery. For vault it's only the last boss that's somewhat healing intensive, assuming people arn't epic failing mechanics. My problem with vault was almost always the dps, not the tanks. Ranged dps that always want to attack from absolute maximum range on opposite sides of the room so aoe heals miss them.

Really though to me the way to help healers isn't just slapping a bit more hp on, it's learning to use cooldowns properly.

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I really hate when people do that.When i was leveling Dragoon through story i was always running to opposite side of room while bard was literally hugging the last boss in vault

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Originally Posted by Erit

I never denied that Defiance generates more threat than Deliverance. I simply equated it to Sword Oath tanking; you deal more damage but require more coordination and competence to maintain aggro. WARs reach the peak of their power when stance-dancing anyway, so the most capable WARs can Deliverance tank with minimal issues unless some other part of the group is cripplingly inept.

Even the best tanks need their tank stance for certain portions of a fight, but the best tanks can also get away with switching to DPS stance or dropping Grit and going nuts for other portions of the fight. Hell, even I can find windows to drop Grit and go ham, and I'm one of the most inept tanks that I know.

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Warrior also has the advantage of cross classing flash.So we can spam it inbetween tanking in deliverance seeming as it's the only use we have for mana anyway.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Warrior also has the advantage of cross classing flash.So we can spam it inbetween tanking in deliverance seeming as it's the only use we have for mana anyway.

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Cross class flash only gives you emnity. Pld get the trait that gives it blind. Other jobs do not. Also to point out the small amount of emnity it gives. If you're in DPS stance and have a spiker in your group you will not be able to hold aggro on mobs.

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Originally Posted by Zaresin

Cross class flash only gives you emnity. Pld get the trait that gives it blind. Other jobs do not.

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Yes but my point is it's free enmity you can add while tanking in deliverance.Dark has no use for flash when it has it's own skill that does the same thing.And neither dark or Paladin get a cross class agro skill from warrior.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Yes but my point is it's free enmity you can add while tanking in deliverance.Dark has no use for flash when it has it's own skill that does the same thing.And neither dark or Paladin get a cross class agro skill from warrior.

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You prob replied when I was editing.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Your problem was the tank's defense not vit gear. If a trash pull is wiping out roughly 10k hp in 4 seconds and extra 500 isn't going to change anything.

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It wasn't Defense, I checked their gear. *shrug* I was pretty amazed by it at the time myself, I'm assuming crits were involved. Both tanks died while I was mid-heal. We got through the runs, but I had to spend the whole time babysitting them. Slaying gear is just harder to manage in leveling dungeons since you can't really "overgear" them because of level sync. The anecdotes were just meant illustratively, as whether the tanking community likes it or not, SE does assume VIT accessories for tanks when they set incoming damage and the like. It doesn't mean STR gear isn't workable because it is--it's just that it's harder to make it work without the ability to overgear the content.

As it is, it's a common trope on here to vastly understate the difference that VIT makes--the difference between a VIT tank and a STR one at 56 results in a loss of around 2000-2500 health, and that can matter. Imagine a scenario with about 10000 incoming damage over 5 seconds. Tank A has 11500 and after that 5 seconds is still alive. Tank B that has 9000 health because he's in STR gear isn't alive at the end of that 5 seconds. Tank A has time for the heal to land, keeping him alive, and an instant heal thereafter gets the healer back on track. Tank B dies whether the healer is in the middle of a cast or not.

You're right that 500 health probably wouldn't matter in that kind of situation, but 2000 very much can.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Yes but my point is it's free enmity you can add while tanking in deliverance.Dark has no use for flash when it has it's own skill that does the same thing.And neither dark or Paladin get a cross class agro skill from warrior.

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Take a blm monk or drg someone with high spike damage (anyone that relies on crits will do) and tank in DPS stance. You will not be able to keep aggro off them even if they utilize raging strikes correctly your DPS stance was not designed to tank. Not to mention added stress to your healers as now they not only need to worry about the 20% damage mitigation you're no longer recieving out of tank stance but now must worry about mobs running all over the place while you try to chase them down as most DPS when they pull aggro doesn't stop dpsing or stand still or run to the tank. Not to mention when a DPS pulls aggro the healer will pull it a few seconds later as they are having to use their large aggro heals. If you as a tank cannot get a group of mobs or a boss off the healer in under 3-5 seconds the healer will be dead. Considering I leveled all three healers by dungeons, this happened more than I care to remember and why I absolutely hate warriors. I would rather heal a pld or drk any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

It wasn't Defense, I checked their gear. *shrug* I was pretty amazed by it at the time myself, I'm assuming crits were involved. Both tanks died while I was mid-heal. We got through the runs, but I had to spend the whole time babysitting them. Slaying gear is just harder to manage in leveling dungeons since you can't really "overgear" them because of level sync.

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I'm saying I've healed and tanked these dungeons, even under geared(since you don't have the dungeon drops when starting), and never have I seen that kind of incoming damage. About the only time I've ever seen a tank take that much damage that fast in aery is when they pull multiple groups, and even then I'm not sure I've seen a tank go down in 4 seconds.

Vit doesn't add mitigation. Even in your example how are you going to keep them alive? You don't 100% heal a take with every cast so they'll survive one more GCD before dying. I mean if he survives with less than 2k hp, then you heal for 1kish, he dies in the next gcd. Accessories don't have defense, so literally the only difference in max hp.

Again I tanked aery in ilvl 130, I didn't take anywhere near that kind of damage.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I'm saying I've healed and tanked these dungeons, even under geared(since you don't have the dungeon drops when starting), and never have I seen that kind of incoming damage. About the only time I've ever seen a tank take that much damage that fast in aery is when they pull multiple groups, and even then I'm not sure I've seen a tank go down in 4 seconds.

Vit doesn't add mitigation. Even in your example how are you going to keep them alive? You don't 100% heal a take with every cast so they'll survive one more GCD before dying. I mean if he survives with less than 2k hp, then you heal for 1kish, he dies in the next gcd. Accessories don't have defense, so literally the only difference in max hp.

Again I tanked aery in ilvl 130, I didn't take anywhere near that kind of damage.

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His OGC may not have been used. But he is right. More health means you can take more hits before you go splat. Less health means your healer has to babysit you.

From a healer standpoints would rather have a reliable competent tank than someone I have to sit there and spam heals on hoping the DPS don't stand in an aoe cause the tank is losing health faster than than I can heal them.

From a tank stand point I personally take offense to a healer having to sit there and spam their large heals on me as then they are not dpsing making the fight go faster. It makes me feel like I'm failing as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Again I tanked aery in ilvl 130, I didn't take anywhere near that kind of damage.

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I healed and tanked them both at 130 as well (and DPS'd them). This wasn't a constant thing, but it happened and if the tanks were wearing more Fending, they would have lived longer.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Vit doesn't add mitigation. Even in your example how are you going to keep them alive? You don't 100% heal a take with every cast so they'll survive one more GCD before dying.

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Of course, the VIT only matters if the hypothetical 10000 incoming damage isn't constant. Something that high is obviously spike damage--unlucky back to back crits, a stray ground AoE, etc. VIT is just a bit safer, that's all, especially when you can't overgear the content, allowing left side to gear to make up for the VIT loss from going to Slaying.

Funny thing the other day I asked a healer to holy, well his reply: " I don't dps when tanks have str accs"....

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Originally Posted by Zaresin

From a healer standpoints would rather have a reliable competent tank than someone I have to sit there and spam heals on hoping the DPS don't stand in an aoe cause the tank is losing health faster than than I can heal them.

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But more hp doesn't stop the babysitting. If you're babysitting the tank, the problem isn't that the tank is missing 10% hp. If a tank is taking 5k damage every gcd, more hp isn't going to help him. I'm not saying every tanks needs to immediately drop all vit(i honestly hate that dps is what tanks are stacking) but a few more hp doesn't suddenly make a tank take less damage.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

But more hp doesn't stop the babysitting. If you're babysitting the tank, the problem isn't that the tank is missing 10% hp. If a tank is taking 5k damage every gcd, more hp isn't going to help him. I'm not saying every tanks needs to immediately drop all vit(i honestly hate that dps is what tanks are stacking) but a few more hp doesn't suddenly make a tank take less damage.

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Look at percentages. If a tank is taking 15-30% damage with each auto attack with a max of 10k health. You add acc with vit and that percentage of health lost shrinks. That means more time I can be in cleric stance as there is more wiggle room as cleric stance does have a cd before I can get out of it. If they are dying before it goes off cd Houston we have a problem.

Had a Pld in full 190 gear with 12k health in fractal. Guess what he was stacking and NOT stacking.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

but a few more hp doesn't suddenly make a tank take less damage.

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It doesn't, and that's not the point. VIT provides "padding" that gives healers more GCDs to use for things other than healing the tank, whether those things are adding DPS, healing damage to DPS, avoiding mechanics, using utility (in the case of AST cards) and so on. It also provides padding in the case of high incoming damage, allowing the tank to receive a heal before death that he might not otherwise have received.

Would you rather survive a tank buster with 500 HP or 2500 HP? The obvious answer is 2500 HP and VIT contributes to allowing you to do so. It is not the *only* thing that contributes, but it *does* contribute.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Don't, it's really bad.

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Just cause it's amusing to look at. :P

Some very extreme examples here and outliers. The tank should never be at 30% health if the healer is doing their job. All of the damage in this game can be accounted for before it's ever taken. You shouldn't be waiting for the hit and then starting the cast. Unless you are experiencing huge fluctuations in pull sizes, the rate of incoming damage is relatively the same every single time. The biggest incoming damage rate decreases come from cool downs which EVERY tank should be using and rotating thru unless they are being saved for a specific instance. Vit accessories have zero net effect on this what so ever because if you get to the point where you "NEED" the extra hp then you've already made an error. The savage meta is around 16k and out of savage everything can be tanked comfortably with 14k ish hp and with the gear upgrades lately you should be able to hit the latter with 190/200 left side alone.

That being said good healers, like tanks, are the exception rather than the rule. I personally run with pentamelds but different situations necessitate different setups. There is no situation that necessitates a full vit build. But i will concede that the chances of getting a garbage healer/tank in df is substantially high and during leveling (at level) a 2/3 vit/str or str/vit setup can be beneficial in some cases while leveling especially if you are still learning the class.

If healers want to DPS so bad, they should role DPS. I mean, that is the argument for tanks who want to optimize their DPS, right?

If, as a healer, one is babysitting a STR-accessory tank, then that tank has other, more important problems to deal with...like learning how to play correctly. That doesn't magically change with more VIT.

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Originally Posted by Pooky_Pasha

If healers want to DPS so bad, they should role DPS. I mean, that is the argument for tanks who want to optimize their DPS, right?

If, as a healer, one is babysitting a STR-accessory tank, then that tank has other, more important problems to deal with...like learning how to play correctly. That doesn't magically change with more VIT.

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I would much rather have a full str tank then a full vit tank. They are much easier to heal.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

It doesn't, and that's not the point. VIT provides "padding" that gives healers more GCDs to use for things other than healing the tank, whether those things are adding DPS, healing damage to DPS, avoiding mechanics, using utility (in the case of AST cards) and so on. It also provides padding in the case of high incoming damage, allowing the tank to receive a heal before death that he might not otherwise have received.

Would you rather survive a tank buster with 500 HP or 2500 HP? The obvious answer is 2500 HP and VIT contributes to allowing you to do so. It is not the *only* thing that contributes, but it *does* contribute.

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I don't want Padding or "Training Wheels" I want a tank who doesn't lose aggro to me or the dps and actually contributes more to the fight then a damage sponge.

There is no tank buster in the game that can one shot you right now.

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Originally Posted by Zaresin

Look at percentages. If a tank is taking 15-30% damage with each auto attack with a max of 10k health. You add acc with vit and that percentage of health lost shrinks. That means more time I can be in cleric stance as there is more wiggle room as cleric stance does have a cd before I can get out of it. If they are dying before it goes off cd Houston we have a problem.

Had a Pld in full 190 gear with 12k health in fractal. Guess what he was stacking and NOT stacking.

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So that extra 3-4k hp is going to make him suddenly survive 30% damage each autoattack? That is pretty much 2.5 extra seconds, not enough time to do that sorry.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I would much rather have a full str tank then a full vit tank. They are much easier to heal.

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Considering I have read every post in this silly thread, I know this.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I would much rather have a full str tank then a full vit tank. They are much easier to heal.



I don't want Padding or "Training Wheels" I want a tank who doesn't lose aggro to me or the dps and actually contributes more to the fight then a damage sponge.

There is no tank buster in the game that can one shot you right now.



So that extra 3-4k hp is going to make him suddenly survive 30% damage each autoattack? That is pretty much 2.5 extra seconds, not enough time to do that sorry.

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What were the cast speeds on heals again? Oh 2.5.

Hey Nektulos go troll in another game pls ^^

Haha, have to admit I hear nothing but horrible experiences from my healers friends when they have to party with full str acc tanks. Often times they say their hp just goes down to fast to give them breathing room or to contribute to aoe/dps themselves since they have to stay in "babysit mode" (especially since these tanks also run around in dps mode as well).

Personally tank with a mix of 2-3 each of either vit or str, and still working on getting my eso set to figure out the right amount of either I need to keep things going smoothest myself. Do see myself slowly transitioning to incorporating more str though as I progress gear wise.