I know of a few games where items have colors associated with stats, so I can understand where they're going with this, though it's not really something people would have expected here. It's not so much a bad thing as it is unexpected.
Colored gear with specific classes.
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10-11-2011, 05:46 AMAlhanelem
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10-11-2011, 05:55 AMReinheartHopefully they find something because JP thread is going nuts about this one LOL seems like bigger issue than the PL imo lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
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10-11-2011, 06:02 AMSilvertearRenA better suggestion would be to make dyes aesthetic-only, and that each piece of equipment that is different, should have different names. For example:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
Currently On The System- Cobalt Cuirass
- Red Cobalt Cuirass
Ideal System- Cobalt Cuirass
- Reinforced Cobalt Cuirass
The latter allows you to dye it however you want. It's so incredibly simple, I am amazed that nobody at Square ever thought of this! -
10-11-2011, 06:04 AMOscillate_WildlyI'm glad to hear your input in this. ; w; I checked the JP boards a few days ago and didn't see one, and there have been mixed messages about whether or not they even care as much as the EU/NA players do. Do they seem to be more in favour of it as someone said a few pages back? Or against it? O:Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinheart
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10-11-2011, 06:06 AMVesperAKA you color coded players, which is lame and needs to be changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
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10-11-2011, 06:15 AMReinheartNot a thread with lots of response but just look at number of likes gives you idea that they feel exactly the same as NA/EUQuote:
Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly
http://goo.gl/joPOI -
10-11-2011, 06:21 AMOscillate_Wildly
Oh wow. O:
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10-11-2011, 06:22 AMRaikkiIf you're still reading this can you remind the dev team that they forgot to put in a red cobalt plate belt? The set looks... incomplete without the belt colored to match.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
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10-11-2011, 06:22 AMKioteNot some Bay, the vast majority. This is an awful system that needs to be removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
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10-11-2011, 06:38 AMDeadRiserBut thanks for the response.. hopefully we can have some change soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
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10-11-2011, 06:39 AMSagagemini
That's just terrible.
Great job, SE! -
10-11-2011, 06:40 AMAlkoun
I have to agree with most people on here: color coding people's gear is dumb. I'm voting NO on dyes affecting stats.
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10-11-2011, 07:01 AMDreadnoughtthe devs think so lowly of us that they think we actually need gear to be color coded so we know which gear has which stats?Quote:
The reason that different colored equipment now offer different stats was because when making the item-related adjustments, the team changed it so you can easily differentiate stat differences by the color of the gear.
I understand that some people want dyes to just be an aesthetic-only option, and I'll be sure to pass that along to the dev. team along with other feedback.
first of all, if we really want to know another persons geared stats then we use the EXAMINE feature.
second of all, no one asked for color coded gear so we can tell which stats have which just by a quick glance at a character.
third of all, even if the color says which stats are which, we still dont know to what extent those stats are because of other modifyers such as materia.... LEADING US TO USE THE EXANINE FEATURE
couldnt the actual model of the gear be what reflects its stats?
this is the only thing i hate about the patch SE, please change it. -
10-11-2011, 07:42 AMReinheart
Here thanks to the JP thread for finding old post from YoshiP with a date so I can dig my translation thread.
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Original Thread Link: http://goo.gl/chAJK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida
お気遣い感謝です:)Quote:
Originally Posted by JAGER
Thanks for your thoughts :)
性能カスタマイズはカララント+素材+クリスタル属性で、というイメージです。Quote:
コレを見る限り”レッドカララント”が着色の要素に見えますが、やはり装備の色味が性能のカスタマイズ（例の場合赤が盾向き）のキーに充てられる訳ですかね…。
When looking "Red Colorant" looks like the color material, so the color will define stat customize (example like red being tank) is the key.....
The image is Stat customize is colorant + material + crystal
単純にアイテムを後から「染色する」という遊びは、全アイテムに全カラーを用意する必要、もしくは、
一括して色変更するシステムが必要なので、また別にと思っています。
（全カラーを用意する方法では、メモリが破綻しますし、システム対応の場合は、
見た目のクオリティを維持しつつなので、今すぐは難しいのです。
他のゲームでは頂点カラーのみで、とかマテリアルカラーで、とか方法はありますが、
テクスチャの書き込みがその分制限を受けています）
To generally coloring the item later on, it will require to have all colors for all the item, or will require a system to change color together so thinking of this for another.
(to prepare every color it will break the memory, to work with the system it we have to preserve the quality of looks so it's hard to do right away. In other games there are ways to change the material colors but the texture writing is taking some limitations.)
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10-11-2011, 08:04 AMJynxI'm glad to hear that, I can't imagine it staying this way forever I'll be sorely dissapointed if it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinheart
*edit*
Seriously issues allready? I don't care if I can't dye my armour every single colour of the rainbow but I do want some choices in the matter, christ keep it so each armour set has 3 colour variants that DON'T effect stats or the job that can wear them, it's inane we have materia to boost our stats we don't need a 3rd layers for slight customization boosts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinheart
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10-11-2011, 08:16 AMKiote
It's a real shame that the PLing issue is so extreme most NA players haven't even seen this thread.
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10-11-2011, 08:16 AMRethDaron
Even with the explanation, it's escaping me how they thought it was a good idea to have different colored pieces of the same gear have different stats. I know it's a lot to ask, but being able to dye your own gear without having to worry if your gimped or not would be welcomed.
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10-11-2011, 08:35 AMNakiamiieThank you! Hopefully aesthetic colouring is coming back. The stats difference could be shown in the description of the item by adding a class icons to show people which class it would be optimal for while not restricting it for that particular class. Or something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
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10-11-2011, 08:52 AMTsukino
I know this thread is long and everything has pretty much already been said.
But I wanted to just highlight the fact that one of the biggest complaints I hear from people playing many MMOs out there, successful and otherwise, is that there's a "uniform" associated with their class and level. People want their accomplishments to show in their equipment, so that people can see what they've done at a glance. However, they also want to not look exactly like everyone else playing their same class at the same level of progress.
Dye is normally a way to accomplish both of these. The base equipment shows what you're wearing, but then the coloring is a way for you to personalize it. If you take the previous system that was in place: you look at a mage wearing a pointy hat and you know they're probably in the 30s or 40s because it has feathers and doesn't cover their eyes, but then they also had four color options which were entirely made based on their own aesthetics. That's a good way to balance showing off with personal taste. The current system, on the other hand, dictates "you are a level 36 conjurer, so you will wear a pink linen hat like every other level 36 conjurer in the game." -
10-11-2011, 08:58 AMAbriael
It's obvious that in the latest wave of hirings SE let an Ork slip into the development team.
Red ones go fastah! -
10-11-2011, 09:48 AMLiennThanks! ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
I agree with having more colors...actually i sent them a BIG feedback yesterday regarding dyeing (that, for some reason the Word changed to "dying"...just too lame...and i only noticed this today ><)
IMO this dyeing change was not only lame but also drastically damaged the game as a whole. For those curious, i asked these changes:
-Each color being related to a class (like all red armor being "Requires: MRD").
-Undyed gear being all classes.
-All gear having required rank and all dyed gear required class (only one class...like red being "Requires MRD") and an extra effect in comparison to undyed version, like they do now.
-Once the character reaches with ANY class to that gear required rank, the restriction changes to optimal rank. Just like Naylia suggested a while ago...an awesome idea to look the character as a whole instead of a set of separated classes. So, if your highest class is 30, all gear level 30 or under have optimal level while all gear 31+ have required level, keeping Yoshida's so wanted leveling up based on gear motivation.
-Once both reuirements of the gear is fulfilled (both required class and level), the class requirement would change to favoring. This way, once you got access to that gear any of your class also will. However, if the class wearing it is not the favored one, the dyeing bonus effect would be cancelled, leaving the very same effect as if it was undyed to any class other than favored one, giving people that want an edge to the class by using the correct color having it AND giving those that want to use any color with any class what they want too.
Also, just imagine that, as example, if you want a Cobalt Cuirass (Red) (would be "Requires: MRD" and "Required Level: 48") with another class then you would need to reach MRD 48 to fulfill both class and level requirements to change it to optimal/favor.
In the end it's like Naylia said...like a milestone system that rewards who leveled the classes...once you reach MRD 50, this means all red gear would become "Favors: MRD", allowing you to use it with every single class...and what if pink was WVR color? If you want to wear a Cobalt Cuirass (Pink) then you better level your weaver up to lv48!
Of course the original suggestion was WAY more detailed than this...but this explanation might be enough for you guys to understand the idea i think. -
10-11-2011, 10:47 AMAmineri
I have been having a bit of trouble adjusting to the new color paradigm, but in the end I think it will lead to the game having a more Final Fantasy feel to it.
First off, most MMOs have color be purely aesthetic. This is not most MMOs. The biggest complaint I see from people is that they don't want FFXIV turning into a generic MMO clone.
In the Final Fantasy universe, color is not aesthetic!
Black Mage != White Mage != Red Mage != Blue Mage
People are crying out for these traditional Final Fantasy job icons, and yet turn around and raise a ruckus because SE actually ties colors to classes?? I don't get it. The whole theme of these classes (EVEN THEIR NAMES) are highly dependent on color.
Even beyond that, there is a clear line of reasoning as to why colors have stats associated with them. People generally liked the dyeing system (or at least SE believed this to be the case, it seems), where you had to collect dyes and add them to gear. With the HQ system, and crafting in general, this means that adding color takes more effort. Should not effort be rewarded? I know that pre-patch, I was starting to see a lot of people in undyed +3 gear, because the undyed version was exactly the same stat-wise, but easier to make.
If you follow this train of logic, if SE makes dyes not affect stats, no one will make/sell HQ versions of the dyed gear. It would simply be more effort for no more reward. Once again, all people would look the same, just in this case undyed rather then dyed.
The only remaining choice is to make changing color such a trivial operation that it becomes essentially no effort to change your gear to whatever you want, whenever, however. This goes very highly against the color-themed classes/jobs that are so central to the Final Fantasy universe, that I'd think that more people would be against it.
Even further, then SE would be spending a lot of time adding in a system that served no actual game-related purpose. I can already see the cries of "SE, stop wasting time adding stuff to let people play dress-up, and put in REAL content!!".
SE couldn't really win here. No matter what option they took, there was going to be an outcry:
1) Keep existing system : "This is too complicated, and everyone ends up wearing the same undyed gear. It doesn't feel Final Fantasy."
2) Make colors have stats and class/job restrictions : "I can't make my character be whatever color I want!"
3) Make coloring a meaningless vanity system : "Why are you wasting time on a 'Hello Kitty' dress up system instead of adding real content? Why are the Black Mages dressed in red gear and Red Mages dressed in black gear? This makes no sense and isn't Final Fantasy!"
Good luck dev team! /salute -
10-11-2011, 10:50 AMRubiconBay, that would make sense except the part about "easily differentiate stat differences by color of the gear" when red in one piece of gear means one stat, and red in another piece of gear means a totally different stat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
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10-11-2011, 11:07 AMOscillate_Wildly
AF is one thing, crafted gear is another. Not to mention Conjurer does not equal black mage or white mage. That's jobs. As we don't have jobs yet, this whole class = colour nonsense is bunk. Particularly as that's not exactly how FF games have been going in the past few years anyway.
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10-11-2011, 11:14 AMAmineriSaying "class = colour nonsense is bunk" is your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly
Let me point out:
1) Color defining classes / jobs / roles has a well established tradition in the Final Fantasy universe
2) There were many requests for classes to be more well defined
I don't think it is too difficult to put these two things together to see where the dev team got this idea from. -
10-11-2011, 11:38 AMJynxI don't even know where to start with this comment...Quote:
Originally Posted by Amineri
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10-11-2011, 12:00 PMDreamer
Forget color coding; I simply wish SE would take a page from the modern MMO design handbook (something I don't advocate very often) and separate appearance from stats. LotRO (a free2play game, at that) does this better than any other MMORPG I've played. You have your gear, then you have several different appearance-only tabs that you can switch between at will.
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10-11-2011, 12:06 PMDeadRiserBut that's what you have gear for. Not the color. The look itself is what can define your job. The color is your own customization. With the way things are now, everyone will be either red for MRD or GLA, [insert color] for mage, and [insert color] for ARC, LNC, and PUG. There's no fun and that's why I liked it before better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amineri
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10-11-2011, 12:07 PMDreadnoughti felt the Phantasy Star series did it even better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamer
in their games, your stats are based on a few actual devices that electronically induce those stats.
sort of like an invisible forcefield made up of specific defenses. anything you wear is just for looks.
it makes a little more sense than just magic imbued gear to me but oh well. -
10-11-2011, 12:15 PMDeadRiserLol I did like that the armor was linked to the outfit, but their color system suckeddddQuote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnought
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10-11-2011, 12:25 PMDreadnoughtoh yeah, im not defending the actual look of the armour, just the idea behind the stats/clothes.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadRiser
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10-11-2011, 12:26 PMDeadRiserOh I know what your a talking about lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnought
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10-11-2011, 12:31 PMRubiconWith this logic, let's ask a Level 50 THM what their unofficial "AF" is. A red hat, a purple robe, green gloves, blue pants, and white shoes? Sure if they want the best stats. Or they could try to wear the same color clothes (let's pretend that THMs are meant to be purple) and not have the best stats. Not having ultimate stats doesn't sound very AF-ish to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amineri
I wish people would quit referring to AF. I seriously doubt classes will even get an AF, as an AF's stats supports a specific role and classes aren't meant to perform one specific role, they can mix and match abilities. Jobs will get AF because players will know what role a job is meant to play and the gear's stats will support that role. -
10-11-2011, 12:58 PMAmineriI'm not trying to say that classes are getting artifact armor (whatever that is, I presume it's some FFXI reference, which I never played). I'm also not saying that this is an exact repeat of a previous system from a previous Final Fantasy title.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubicon
All I'm trying to say here, is this : color intrinsically has a meaning beyond aesthetics in at least some of the Final Fantasy universe. The development team is building upon this, creating a system in which colors are in some ways associated with stats.
There are many degrees of freedom here.
On one side there are games in which both the color and the appearance have NOTHING to do with stats of gear. In Aion you could wield a fish, or a giant fork, with complete effectiveness. The upcoming game The Secret World (a modern-day conspiracy-type game) completely divorces your gear appearance from your stats. Great. That is one option.
In the middle ground, the physical model of the gear is restricted (i.e. robes for mages, plate for tanks, leather for DD), but the color is completely unrestricted. Lots of people are used to this way of thinking, and so think that it is "right". It's not right per se, just one more option on the design spectrum.
On the other side, both physical model of gear AND color can be restricted. Final Fantasy has a tradition of doing this. It seems to go against the current trend of MMOs, but do all MMOs really have to be the same?
On a side note, SE has clearly made the following color-to-element associations within the game, from day one:
Purple : lightning
White/light blue : ice
Red : Fire
Green : Wind
Tan/Brown : Earth
Blue : Water
Color here DOES matter.
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On a side note, I hope that SE does expand on their selection of armors and colors available within the classes, simply by adding more recipes/options. Given the sheer size of the 1.19 patch, I'm not really surprised that the new recipe selection first released was a bit skimpy, and am looking forward to more gear coming in 1.20. -
10-11-2011, 01:04 PMJynx
Remember children Iron Armor has poor lightning resists...unless it's Purple.
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10-11-2011, 03:12 PMFiron
People love playing dress up in mmo's and not the actual game
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10-11-2011, 03:53 PMEmeraldHillThey had a hue slider and you could have pretty much any color.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadRiser
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10-11-2011, 04:16 PMWaaltar
Clearly we need to get rid of stats and just have a color labels system. After all, we can't count on people to look at stats and have to color code things for them.
They even hyped the new flexibility in color choice for this patch WTF. This is a more flexible system in that there is now no flexibility oh ok that makes sense.
Seriously, this is probably the dumbest dev team choice in a game with a long list of dumb choices to choose from. -
10-11-2011, 04:33 PMDreadnoughtthey did? i dont remember that!Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldHill
thats something i always wanted in a game, considering you can get any color you want on metal and fabric in real life. -
10-11-2011, 07:07 PMFensfieldWell I liked most of the clothes they came up with >.>; Never had difficulty finding a look for my character that I liked in PSO or PSU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnought
Still, you're right, the way they disconnected stats almost entirely from aesthetics (the only place it showed was in the colour of the photon channels embroidered in the gear) is one of the things makes the online Phantasy Stars my favourite MMO games. In Phantasy Star Online 2, the units you choose to equip will also appear on your character model, but again, outfit proper has nothing to do with stats.
I cannot wait for that game to come out.. But yes, in my opinion games in this genre really are so much better when they try to get as close to having a system like that as possible. .. And this new bright idea from the dev's to colour code everyone (because of course, we're too daft to tell any other way) is even further from that than removing (rather than fixing) the optimal system. Good lord I hope there's this much vitriol and more being directed at the change in the other language forums.
... And yeah as someone else said, a lot of the character look was controlled by a hue slider. A great many outfits came in two-colour combination sets, but a lot of stuff - particularly for CASTs - was way more customisable.
Oh and Dreadnought, while I've a hope of nabbing your attention here I'll take chance to correct you on something: you misread my post on Mabinogi in the roleplay forum request thread. Try looking again. Much as I know you feel compelled to bash those of us who enjoy games that don't emphasize killing things, "this mobi game" isn't that like that - its combat system's reliance on realtime mechanics is in the middle ground between Final Fantasy XIV and Phantasy Star Online. It's arguably got more action - and even violence - in it than this game has.
Mabinogi also being a game that, by the by, had a very successful philosophy of not having limitations on what colours or indeed types of gear you could wear - it just whacked you with really inconvenient penalties if you, say, focused on magic while wearing full plate (since magic users could get a lot of benefit out of accessories and plate had no accessory slots. And a lot of the cloth gear had a hefty magic bonus on it anyway).
Hell I'd be playing it right now if the combat system's vulnerability to latency didn't mean I get region-locked away from playing with my friends. Well, that and the fact that the whole thing with the Milletians makes roleplaying on the kind of scale we have here a damn-sight harder.