Crafting is dead

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Since when did gatherers *need* to gather favors? The problem with favors atm is that nobody is gathering them hardly, as they are not worth the time they take to get, but will lower hand in cost, people would start gathering and buying them.
You'd have more red scipes to do what you want with, those who wanted to grind favors could do so (and make a killing as they would sell well). Or could just do red scrip tokens and gear up faster.

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I believe he is talking about how the triple DoL scrip weekly allowance you suggested would make it take three times as long to do all your favors, so 33.75 hours if people wanted to do all of their favors, since it would now actually be worth doing.

That's almost as many hours as a full time job :\

Well, the patch changes are a disappointment. Not that I had high hopes to begin with. Now, I can cap red scrips with 20 minutes of macro crafting instead of 30. I'll spend less time handing them in at least, so yay?

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Originally Posted by XLauncher

Well, the patch changes are a disappointment. Not that I had high hopes to begin with. Now, I can cap red scrips with 20 minutes of macro crafting instead of 30. I'll spend less time handing them in at least, so yay?

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Going by the patch notes, end game crafting will remain pretty much dead.

It's a 50% increase but the system is still a failure cause it didn't even fix the item scarcity issues. SE was not listen at all.

Well, I'm not going to quit in a rage over it. That's never really been my style. But crafting and achieving endgame crafting status has always been like, half, of my motivation to play this game when I'm playing it. If there's nothing for me there, ennui is going to hit me a lot sooner than it usually does.

the changes are good for ppl going for the scrip gear, ppl who actually wanna craft are still screwed cause no one wants to do favors.

Why did I have my hopes up so. Wow this hot fix got me so flustered I can't even tell where my rage end or begins. But I guess I'll do favors cause my server favors price are enormous still -_-

Please SE I do not have 11 hours to mindlessly gather for the Favor mats... this is the #1 problem, I have no motivation to gather these mats. With this *fix* I can now max out my red scripts for both Crafting and Gathering in 1.5 hours instead of 3 hours.

They will probably slightly alter favors at some stage but other than that the only other thing they will do in time in my opinion will be add new recipes though not too often. Probably enhance specializations aspect with those new recipes and I reckon will probably add those few more recipes around 3.1 but I do not see them ever adding BiS style Dow/DoM gear crafting so if hoping for that then you will be out of luck.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

They will probably slightly alter favors at some stage but other than that the only other thing they will do in time in my opinion will be add new recipes though not too often. Probably enhance specializations aspect with those new recipes and I reckon will probably add those few more recipes around 3.1 but I do not see them ever adding BiS style Dow/DoM gear crafting so if hoping for that then you will be out of luck.

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Why even mention BiS Dow/m gear when most of us what then to fix the favor system and make crafting more accessible with actual item to craft and sell? Mostly nobody is asking to make BiS battle gear but we asking to let us gear up our crafters in a reasonable time frame. Cause right now not alot of gatherers (at least on my server) that's actually farming favors. The mats are still on the MB for 100s of 1000s of gil still...

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

They will probably slightly alter favors at some stage but other than that the only other thing they will do in time in my opinion will be add new recipes though not too often. Probably enhance specializations aspect with those new recipes and I reckon will probably add those few more recipes around 3.1 but I do not see them ever adding BiS style Dow/DoM gear crafting so if hoping for that then you will be out of luck.

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Nobody here is asking for BiS crafts, but we would like to be able to actually make the shoddy i180 crafts in our recipes books.

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Originally Posted by Zanhe

I believe he is talking about how the triple DoL scrip weekly allowance you suggested would make it take three times as long to do all your favors, so 33.75 hours if people wanted to do all of their favors, since it would now actually be worth doing.

That's almost as many hours as a full time job :\

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As I said, just because you *can* do something, does not mean you *have* to.

Atm you could gather 168 hours worth of wind shards per week, but I don't see anyone asking for caps to prevent people *having to* do this.

The hot fix doesn't do tons for me either since I wasn't particularly put out by the price of the mats to craft turn-ins to begin with. But I still think some of you are underestimating how big of an impact it will have on less hardcore crafters who have less Gil to work with. I did Nobles Gold this week and crafted 18 of them. This morning I saw it was starred and going for 50 scrips a turn in. I could have only done 9 if I waited until today. This obviously didn't address the elephant in the room (favors) but it will still ease the burden on a substantial number of crafters.

Exactly, but still the whole scrip concept is far from what a "casual aproach" was supposed to be this next step in progression to level things up.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Atm you could gather 168 hours worth of wind shards per week, but I don't see anyone asking for caps to prevent people *having to* do this.

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I lol'd at that. I agree that farming 11 hrs a week wasn't their aim. If gatherers did maybe 150 scrips worth of favors a week (~30 mins of gathering each day) and sold the mats on the market board they could gear up their gatherer at a fairly steady pace while still providing anywhere from 45-60 of these materials, or 2-3 turn-ins worth, to other crafters. They could also use the mats themselves to make the Off hand, which is arguably a better first upgrade than the main hand because it is a more efficient stat gain than any of the scrip gear, not including the additional stats from melding.

This change is pretty much what they stated it was going to be. They have not addressed the complaints about the favour system when they said they were making changes. This change may allow more casual players to obtain scrip gear. Some may also try to cash in on selling now that they can actually afford to cap their weekly scrips.as despite the complaints, people are buying these mats and items for more gil then some crafters I know have ever had. At least it helps with the issue of needing too much gil for the scrips.

I thought scrips was for more of the casual approach & crafted gear was more of the risk = higher reward. But nope se made scrips a mandatory thing and ontop of that TO BECOME A MASTER CRAFTER U NEED TO BE A MASTER GATHERER. Its crazy lmao cuz we r so funneled to one or 2 gearing route that is gated by weekly capping.

Like old snake said...

"Crafting has changed"

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

I thought scrips was for more of the casual approach & crafted gear was more of the risk = higher reward. But nope se made scrips a mandatory thing and ontop of that TO BECOME A MASTER CRAFTER U NEED TO BE A MASTER GATHERER. Its crazy lmao cuz we r so funneled to one or 2 gearing route that is gated by weekly capping.

Like old snake said...

"Crafting has changed"

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Yoshi: specialization system so you don't need to be an omnicrafter!

Players: but the recipes require you to be an omnicrafter, rich (also known as omnicrafter), and an omnigatherer. Oh and the specialization skills suck.

Yoshi:
http://i.imgur.com/ju7qV1c.gif

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. On average you're supposed to get 4 rare item per Favor.

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how?i just got 2 after spending 4 favors :| this will take another 12-15 hours grind or so to craft first item if im lucky :|

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Originally Posted by Hanmerreborn

Yoshi: specialization system so you don't need to be an omnicrafter!

Players: but the recipes require you to be an omnicrafter, rich (also known as omnicrafter), and an omnigatherer. Oh and the specialization skills suck.

Yoshi:
http://i.imgur.com/ju7qV1c.gif

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Just wondering.. But i thought this 'no Omnicrafter'-promise was meant like 'we will prevent the single person from getting all crafts to a lvl where they can craft just everything, due to gear/crossskills'.
And not in a 'every single crafter can craft/gear everything without help/mats of any other class' way.

With all this ppl complaining 'it needs >60 weeeks to gear all' i think.. Mission accomplished.

Ever heard of cooperation?
What about CLN, ALC, did anyone thought they can get crafted gear without a Weaver, Leatherworker and BSM?
I know there's edible underwear, but...


I'm cooperating with 3 other crafters (partly gatherer too) and we're totally fine with the system so far.. Just waiting for more recipes to see where we're headed.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Just wondering.. But i thought this 'no Omnicrafter'-promise was meant like 'we will prevent the single person from getting all crafts to a lvl where they can craft just everything, due to gear/crossskills'.
And not in a 'every single crafter can craft/gear everything without help/mats of any other class' way.

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That is the biggest load of spin doctored BS I have ever heard.

One reason why it is difficult to get into crafting is that it requires skills from all the classes, many of the preferred ones being at lvl 50.

The fact is that now we have to have even more jobs (from dol)leveled at 60, more difficulty to our recepies, but the end result still isn't improved from 2.0, we are still restricted by the box of stat caps, and the majority of crafting needs is still just for crafting. But now getting materials is becoming comparable to atma!

And the company workshop is a joke! Get 4 crafters around and hit a button. :rolls eyes:

Yes, the "no more need to omnicraft" thing was never a promise that crafts will no longer depend on other crafts' products. All that was ever implied was that new skills would be added that would eliminate the necessity of obtaining level 50 cross-class skills. SE has delivered on that, with substitute finisher skills like Byregot's Brow for Byregot's Blessing, and progression skills like Name/Brand and the MMs.

Anyone who actually thought that crafts would no longer depend on high level gathered or crafted materials from other classes was fooling themselves. As it currently stands, SE has delivered on their promise: it is no longer required to level every class in order to craft high-level recipes effectively. The drawback is exactly the same thing that non-crafters have had to deal with since day one: if you don't craft, you have to pay others to make the things you want. If you craft just one craft, then you have to pay other crafters to make the things you want. This is as it should be.

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I'm cooperating with 3 other crafters (partly gatherer too) and we're totally fine with the system so far.. Just waiting for more recipes to see where we're headed

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as much as i like to agree with you dont think even cooperating makes this any better , i spent 200 red scrips on favors just today and managed to craft only 1 griffin leather that was NQ at 96% , imagine the time and effort a team should put for just one set of gear.let alone gearing up 2 or more people , this makes me not even think about being an omnicrafter i be happy to just make one set of gear in next 10-12 week , which seem not possible by the looks of it!

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Originally Posted by Nylisa

how?i just got 2 after spending 4 favors :| this will take another 12-15 hours grind or so to craft first item if im lucky :|

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Average. Average on square RNG. Yeah.
You can get zero even with optimal pathing if your unlucky.

It takes about 30x15= 450 minutes or 7.5 hours to craft one 3 material item like an offhand. On average.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

I'm cooperating with 3 other crafters (partly gatherer too) and we're totally fine with the system so far.. Just waiting for more recipes to see where we're headed.

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Really? The other 3 crafters are completely fine with handing you all their progress? All of their time spend grinding? They must be your b retainers in real life or something like that.

I'm handing out 'progress' myself to them, through favor mats.
But we'll get 2-3 pieces of exchanged gear first and bother later with favors.
Regarding my gatherer i only need crafted belt/2xoffhand sometime in future then. Some red scribs saved, some red scribs for aditional supply for the other crafter.

My ALC gets few pieces exchanged gear, CLN maybe one (no 2* so far).. when the other ppl are more geared I can give them mats for further advancement.

You can't say 'Oh no, you need omni-crafting/gathering' on the one hand and 'You can't do this by cooperating' on the other. We trade progress against progress and it seems we're jusrt not in a hurry like others. Also patches will speed things up, so no 66-week-panic here.

If SE's objective was to suck away fun from crafting, they deserve a game award.
Crafting in this game was always very demanding, but I always went through whatever SE decided throw at me (at us), but since they released the red scrip system, I've been lost, cause I can't actually craft; everything you need to craft is gated behind the red scrips, and people need their scrips to get better gear, so you have to chose between mats or gear... but you can barely craft the new recipes without the new gear.
I crafted one Adamantite Ingot HQ. That's what I could craft since the new recipes were released. Took me a week to gather the ingredients... and now I have to repeat the farming for weeks till I can craft all the mats, so I can finally try to craft a weapon (which can end up being NQ and, stats wise, useless).
So, yeah, it's kinda depressing. Does SE actually look at this forum? Cause for what I read I'm not the only person that hated these changes...

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Anyone who actually thought that crafts would no longer depend on high level gathered or crafted materials from other classes was fooling themselves. As it currently stands, SE has delivered on their promise: it is no longer required to level every class in order to craft high-level recipes effectively. The drawback is exactly the same thing that non-crafters have had to deal with since day one: if you don't craft, you have to pay others to make the things you want. If you craft just one craft, then you have to pay other crafters to make the things you want. This is as it should be.

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That's the biggest load of BS I've ever heard.

Here are ONLY 1 star recipes that you can make with JUST weaver (and appropriately leveled gatherers).

Imperial Operative Dalmatica
Militia Tights
Carpenter's Hood
Weaver's Gibus

With only a level 25 alchemist requirement (natron) with low level mining mats you can make pretty much every other 1 star item because of the requirement for undyed felt, which can also just be gathered from maps (also the few recipes requiring darksteel and rose gold nuggets can also just be crafted this way).

Here's a list of 56-60 recipes (you know, the stuff you make to level) that you can make with weaver + gatherers only
Crawler Silk

You're absolutely right, why would anyone assume that when previously you could craft the high level stuff with just the current class (or gathered from maps), that all of a sudden even leveling crafts would require a 50+ armorer, goldsmith, and alchemist to make a single piece of weaver level 59 gear for a level 58 DoM piece. It's always been that way. *rolls eyes*

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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Erm... LOL

Sorry, but Brow is a really shitty substitue for Blessing. You still need most classes at 50 or you're fucked on "harder" crafts.

And to the argument that classes were needed before and now:
Of course they were needed before and of course they are needed now - but the added complexity and stupid amount of time you need to actually get something done now is ridiculously higher then in 2.x at any point. And that is the main problem - the problem is not *cry cry* ITS TOO HARD TO GET !!11eleven! *cry cry* but: It takes way too much effort (read: time invested) to get something that is in the end utterly useless or: 80+ Favor items (5 hours or running brainless in circles if you're lucky) for one piece of armor equip for ONE of the EIGHT crafting classes

And NO - you can NOT just walk to the MB and buy the materials for it. Not even one has the amount up on it even if you bought then for 1m+ per item to get just one piece of equip crafted

After 2 F*kupo*ing weeks since red scrip were added

go figure

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Originally Posted by Hanmerreborn

You're absolutely right, why would anyone assume that when previously you could craft the high level stuff with just the current class (or gathered from maps), that all of a sudden even leveling crafts would require a 50+ armorer, goldsmith, and alchemist to make a single piece of weaver level 59 gear for a level 58 DoM piece. It's always been that way. *rolls eyes*

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You're not listening. The expectation is that you BUY the ingredients that you can't craft yourself. The problem with single-craft prior to Heavensward wasn't that you needed other crafts and gatherers in order to craft the ingredients you need. The problem was that level 50 cross-class skills like Byergot's Blessing and Piece-by-Piece were REQUIRED to have any kind of decent shot at HQ. SE has removed the requirement to level crafts for their level 50 cross-class skills, That is all.

Prior to Heavensward, how many level 50 1- and 2-star Weaver crafts could you create with only Weaver at 50? ALL OF THEM. How about 3-star crafts? You can still make them all, but HQing without Byergot's, Comfort Zone, Piece-by-Piece was a nightmare. 4-star? Good luck even getting the book to unlock them. That was what SE set out to fix.

People have this mindset that if they can't obtain/create all the ingredients themselves, then they can't craft at all. That's stupid. We're spoiled in this game, because crafts are easy to level and there are no restrictions on how many classes you can max out. Not all MMOs work that way; instead, you're expected to buy from or trade with other crafters to get the ingredients you can't produce yourself.

SE STILL hasn't gone that far. We're still allowed to max every craft (excluding specialist skills, which most agree are a waste of time anyway), so we continue to be spoiled. A sufficiently determined crafter/gatherer can still produce every ingredient they need.

What SE has done was make crafting less daunting to casual players, by providing alternatives for some of the most important level 50 cross-class skills. The alternatives provided aren't necessarily as good, but they're still miles beyond what crafters had available to them before. Byregot's Brow may be terrible compared to Byregot's Blessing, but compared to Advanced Touch? It's miraculous.

The fact that you CAN'T buy ingredients for level 60 2-star crafts due to scarcity is a problem - but it is a seperate, unrelated problem. Even omnicrafters are having problems getting all of the ingredients; it's a matter of them being too much of a grind to obtain. If you COULD obtain them, though, it's possible for a solo crafter (perhaps with a sprinkling of level 15 cross-class skills) to HQ even the new level 60 2-star crafts at a decent rate without having to take any other craft to 50, let alone to 60. That was the promise SE meant to deliver on.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

What SE has done was make crafting less daunting to casual players, by providing alternatives for some of the most important level 50 cross-class skills.

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Why was it needed?

For non-casual crafters it takes 7 days to get all crafts to 50 assuming you have capped leve allowances.

It is/was hardly difficult and even a casual crafter could get them all 50 pretty fast.

I'm a BLM main and I'm too lazy to level a tank/heal class to 60, does this mean I should be given tanking/healing skills that are "almost as good as" the true lvl 60 ones?

What's crazy is people siding with SE over Favor's/scrips saying they are "to help casuals", but also defending the specalist system because getting lvl50 cross class skills "is too much for casuals". If any "casual" can gind out their favors/scrips, they certainly could have got all their crafts to lvl50 quickly!

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

You're not listening. The expectation is that you BUY the ingredients that you can't craft yourself. The problem with single-craft prior to Heavensward wasn't that you needed other crafts and gatherers in order to craft the ingredients you need. The problem was that level 50 cross-class skills like Byergot's Blessing and Piece-by-Piece were REQUIRED to have any kind of decent shot at HQ. SE has removed the requirement to level crafts for their level 50 cross-class skills, That is all.

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Obviously you never even tried to craft a 2 star HQ material

one word: wrong

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Originally Posted by Hanmerreborn

Here's a list of 56-60 recipes (you know, the stuff you make to level) that you can make with weaver + gatherers only
Crawler Silk

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+ spending 45 minutes on a DoW/DoM farming crawlers because the drop rates from mobs are absolutely horrendous.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Why was it needed?

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Your definition of casual still isn't nearly casual enough. A casual crafter is one who feels exhausted after weeks spent leveling a single craft to 50. After getting all that done, they feel they've earned the right to craft anything their craft has to offer. Sure, they might have to get good gear before they can access the toughest things, but that's fine; it's no different than gearing up making you more powerful as a combat class. Anyone who considers leveling a single craft to 50 to be easy simply doesn't have a casual mindset.

Some here may feel that that kind of casual is simply too casual to be worth considering - but they're out there, they're plentiful, and SE wants them to not dismiss crafting as something not even worth trying because it's too hardcore.

Your BLM analogy falls short in that a BLM only cross-classes abilities that help a BLM. A BLM doesn't need tanking skills, and has only minor use for healing skills. If that if you really want to compare it to crafting classes, make it so that some of BLM's most important skills come from level 50 cross classes from ARC, GLD, CNJ, PGL, LNC, and ACN. It's not a matter of BLM performing a bit better by getting these cross-classes, it's a matter of a BLM completely failing at their role in high-level content unless they level six other classes to max level. Byregot's Blessing, and to a lesser extent CS2, PbP, and arguably a few others, were simply that important.

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Originally Posted by Magistrella

Obviously you never even tried to craft a 2 star HQ material

one word: wrong

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Clearly, still a slave to Byergot's Blessing. Thankfully, we do have folks out there actually experimenting with new methods that don't rely on old expectations.

Even if the method used in that link doesn't turn out to be a usable solution, it shows that at least some crafters are still willing to experiment.

The person you quoted as not using BB is still using a multitude of other CC skills, including rumination, comfort zone, ingenuity 2 and muscle memory at a glance. Sorry but I think you've been sorely mislead if you believe 2 star crafts are accessible to those without a multitude of high level crafting classes. They are anything but casual unless your casual crafter was sitting on a full set of red scrip gear. If you think that was what SE was aiming for, then they failed miserably.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

The person you quoted as not using BB is still using a multitude of other CC skills, including rumination, comfort zone, ingenuity 2 and muscle memory at a glance. Sorry but I think you've been sorely mislead if you believe 2 star crafts are accessible to those without a multitude of high level crafting classes. They are anything but casual unless your casual crafter was sitting on a full set of red scrip gear. If you think that was what SE was aiming for, then they failed miserably.

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Level 60 2 stars recipes are nothing but a dream if you don't have all cross class skills. Just take out all cross class skills on a class you're specialist and try to craft one 2star HQ item.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Your definition of casual still isn't nearly casual enough. A casual crafter is one who feels exhausted after weeks spent leveling a single craft to 50. After getting all that done, they feel they've earned the right to craft anything their craft has to offer. Sure, they might have to get good gear before they can access the toughest things, but that's fine; it's no different than gearing up making you more powerful as a combat class. Anyone who considers leveling a single craft to 50 to be easy simply doesn't have a casual mindset.

Some here may feel that that kind of casual is simply too casual to be worth considering - but they're out there, they're plentiful, and SE wants them to not dismiss crafting as something not even worth trying because it's too hardcore.

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You are totally missing my point.

If someone is that casual are they going to grind 10 hours of scrip/favor gathering to craft 1 item?

If it takes a "casual" 1 week to get a single craft to 50, then whats so bad about it taking 2 months or more to have all at 50?

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Clearly, still a slave to Byergot's Blessing. Thankfully, we do have folks out there actually experimenting with new methods that don't rely on old expectations.

Even if the method used in that link doesn't turn out to be a usable solution, it shows that at least some crafters are still willing to experiment.

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This reply shows us how much you actually know about the crafts your talking about ;D

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Originally Posted by andreopalomino

Level 60 2 stars recipes are nothing but a dream if you don't have all cross class skills. Just take out all cross class skills on a class you're specialist and try to craft one 2star HQ item.

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I came to 2.00 with 3 characters. A 50 Weaver, Armorer 50 and Goldsmith 40. The Weaver went Omni but I kept the Armorer and Jeweler just Armor and Jeweler. The problem I see is, even if I took the Armorer and Jeweler to 60 and just that to 60 (I'd be doing it with lower NQ exper but I could actually do it)
The big problem I see is, I can do it but I require more crafts and more mats to do it. Everything about HeavensWard from 51 forward reduces Material availability. Suddenly the 'casual' becomes the hard core. For me to move my Exclusive Armorer forward is going to be 10X harder than moving my Omni forward.

Crafting is far harder in 3.0 than 2.0. Trust me. Casuals aren't making it far at all.

Half of them are still struggling their way through blue scrips and they hear about red scrips and are just like "No thanks".

It is too hard for a casual player, at least on my server to make much ground. Now, Gatherers, man they are the golden child right now. Having a gatherer or 2 at Lv60 is the most profitable thing you could do. But leveling a crafter without having a gatherer and other crafters is just too hard and too expensive.

Say a casual has 500k. If it cost them 10k to do 1 Blue Scrip craft and get 150k exp, then at lv 58 when they need like 3M exp, they are gonna have to do 20 crafts. That's 200k Right there, now they can gather that instead if they have the gatherer's, but if they don't well then they are screwed.

Prices are not gonna go down anytime soon, they hit the base level. Previously when you got Lv50 on a class, you really didn't need to worry too much about making the Lv40 and Lv30 crafts and could focus on 1 and 2 star unhindered. But that is not the case now, now you have every from lv50 to 60 competing for the same mats, every week, and a lot of them. Gatherer's keeping their mats instead of unloading them, and gatherer's not having the time to collect the less worthwhile mats since there is always a node up that needs to be mined.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

I came to 2.00 with 3 characters. A 50 Weaver, Armorer 50 and Goldsmith 40. The Weaver went Omni but I kept the Armorer and Jeweler just Armor and Jeweler. The problem I see is, even if I took the Armorer and Jeweler to 60 and just that to 60 (I'd be doing it with lower NQ exper but I could actually do it)
The big problem I see is, I can do it but I require more crafts and more mats to do it. Everything about HeavensWard from 51 forward reduces Material availability. Suddenly the 'casual' becomes the hard core. For me to move my Exclusive Armorer forward is going to be 10X harder than moving my Omni forward.

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I agree, leveling doing NQ items is crazy expensive. But what I'm saying is, unless you covered on red scrip gear, you can't think about crafting 2stars without all cross class skills. One crafter level 60, even a specialist, can't hope to craft anything 2stars unless he's so overgeared that the gear he's crafting is not important for him anymore.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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I was happy to hear that specialization would remove the necessity to have every class capped, even though I'd planned to cap them all anyways. The problem is it doesn't.

Byregot's Brow is only usable on Good/Excellent procs, hits for less than Blessing for 6+ IQ stacks, and has a 20% lower success rate than Blessing. Comfort Zone, Careful Synthesis II, and Steady Hand II are still too good not to take. Hasty Touch is still needed because the reduced good procs means you can't rely on Precise Touch for cheap IQ building.

The Whistle system and Heart of the Crafter are an interesting concept that is defeated by the CP cost, RNG factor and limited duration of HotC. If HotC was 45 CP and lasted the entire synth, 45 CP and guaranteed X good procs during its duration, or zero CP (still a delineation) and remained as is this would be different. However, dumping 36 CP on WWYW and another 45 CP on HotC to possibly get some whistle stacks removed is asinine to say the least. Using it by itself to proc goods for precise touches implies that you are swimming in CP because you are by no means guaranteed to get a proc.

Please explain to me exactly how anything the expansion added removed/reduced the necessity of cross class skills for end game crafting. I'd be interested to see your argument.

Also I leveled my LTW and WVR for 15-50 just from maxing Ixali rep. Turning in 5 HQ level appropriate leves is a level. HQ GC turn ins is half a level (nearly a full level if it's starred). This is as casual as crafting could get unless you are expecting the game to level it for you.