Why I have no interest in Coils more specifically, T9.

I didn't find the second coil fun in the least. The first coil was fun as it added this new element to the game and even when I go back to it, I still enjoy each turn (Even 5). I'd cleared up to 5 a good time before the echo. Second was just tedious--not difficult but tedious. I've yet to enter final coil due to college and research being a priority and honestly I'm not very motivated because I don't have fun memories of second coil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Square Enix clearly thinks it's a milestone since you get an achievement upon first clear.

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You also get an achievement for getting a consolation prize on a randomized jumbo cactpot drawing
Quite the effort, right?

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Originally Posted by Zfz

*snipping for length* *About old MMOs*

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Thing is, most old MMO encounters, the really difficult stuff, gave you a lot of time to react to it. This game is faster paced than that. If for instance Absolute Virtue in all it's glory were in this game, it would be giving us better indications of how to beat it than it ever did in FFXI. It took word of god to figure it out because of how... different it was. Nobody thought 'Hey let me use Benediction after it does and it never can again!' or 'Turns out if I hit it with Stone I it's weaker to Stone II and then Stone III and then Stone IV, etc.' mechanics that were unique and nowhere else in the game prior to that.

This game at least gives the player data they can use and learn, rather than letting a full Alliance fight something for nearly 60+ hours and then wipe because the boss has infinite access to 2 hours and undid all of their work without giving them any indications to build up a strategy. In a game where you gathered Key Items to fight a fight a specific way to ensure victory, and if you screwed up, you'd need to spend weeks getting those Key Items back as you fought with bots and other guilds to claim the specific monsters that had a chance at dropping them.

But at the end of the day the 'random' nature of those fights boiled down to figuring out how to reduce the number of times a target had a chance to say, cast spells, or use any of their skills. Or having someone on standby to stun that one horrible skill nobody wanted to deal with the consequences of. Those games favored either massive zergfests or having preventative measures on hand, and were in fact more strategy oriented for that reason. They were also built in a way to force you to be part of the community to even get to see things like our T5, T9, and/or T13. Whether that's for better or worse is up to you.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

In the past MMORPGs used to test reflexes and end-game content, but as accessibility becomes a top priority, these kind of encounters have taken a back seat with strictly scripted encounters being the norm. That's just what will attract more people: encounters with a guarantee of success as long as you learn the fight beforehand.

The difficulty of fights in FFXIV:ARR are based on execution only, that's just the direction the game has taken. Scripted fights also allow more freedom in designing gimmicks that make it possible for fights to be more than just dodging things and doing your rotation. It provides a uniform experience across all players and all instances of the fight.

It's hard to say which is better if it means anything at all. The two types of fights require different types of abilities. And execution abilities happen to be the type more people are comfortable with. If you have ever enjoyed a movie, there's no reason you can't enjoy scripted fights. It just requires taking a fresh look at things and embracing it.

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Honestly, it's the scripted fights that tend to be the better of the two. Dynamic isn't always good, afterall. Would it be difficult if T9 randomized everything about it? Meteor drops during Golems, Golems again immediately after first set spawns, 3rd drop version Heavensfall during divebombs, etc. Most definitely it'd be difficult, if not impossible. WoD is a very good example of scripted fights at the right pace, when it comes to accessible content, in particular Cerberus and Cloud of Darkness... heck, even the first boss. Keep players busy with a good amount of mechanics that require attention away from simply targeting the boss as you move to DPS it.

The older MMORPGs requirement of reflexes is not much different than what it is now. In most cases, those reflexes simply centered around being sure to stun/silence/etc some raid killer mechanic that could happen at any moment. They were designed, as such, that you would often have players dedicated to this mechanic and NOT to dps/heal/tank something. It really didn't do much besides that that would be unique, in and of itself. If anything, it just re-solidified the idea of the Support role, which is something I really do miss from old MMORPGs. Not a dedicated DPS, not a dedicated healer, most likely not even remotely a tank, but rather someone that made everyone else better at what they do (your output was reflected through others, and thus was greatly appreciated by everyone around). Support roles helped ease learning mechanics because of the fact it was a role dedicated to paying attention. But that's another topic entirely.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

You also get an achievement for getting a consolation prize on a randomized jumbo cactpot drawing
Quite the effort, right?

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Some games also give you an achievement for putting the CD in the tray...and The Stanley Parable exists...lmao

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Originally Posted by Ramzal

I didn't find the second coil fun in the least. The first coil was fun as it added this new element to the game and even when I go back to it, I still enjoy each turn (Even 5). I'd cleared up to 5 a good time before the echo. Second was just tedious--not difficult but tedious. I've yet to enter final coil due to college and research being a priority and honestly I'm not very motivated because I don't have fun memories of second coil.

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You described it far better than I have.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Square Enix clearly thinks it's a milestone since you get an achievement upon first clear.

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SE also thinks it's a Milestone to hit level 10. Are you saying all accomplishments must be measured in scale and not actually build up in difficulty proving that you're building upon a learning curve? I mean they don't give you an achievement every time you clear the towers, just that first time. On the other hand, they give you additional achievements for your 5th and 10th clears of T5 and T9 and even T13. They consider those hard enough that it's not only impressive that you finish it once, but that you manage it multiple times as well.

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

I feel that no matter how hard a boss is, you should be able to defeat it on your first blind run through skill alone. T9 doesnt allow that.

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Have you played an FF before this one?

T9 is an extremely hard fight but I think it's ok. I've been stuck on it now for well over 4 months of nightly runs and it can be very frustrating. I find sometimes the DF is getting better but due to not having time for a static I don't expect to clear it before the expansion although I'm pretty consistent up to dive bombs now.

I'd say T9 is the first real major roadblock/challenge for many people and I'd also say that T9 will be where most people give up on coil it's certainly not for everyone.The phases change so fast now and give very little time to react I find when most people hit a new phase they are instantly dead because there is so much going on in this fight.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Square Enix clearly thinks it's a milestone since you get an achievement upon first clear.

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Really....
There's like an achievement for everything even mapping T3. I think that easily nullify this statement.

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Originally Posted by Eight

T9 is an extremely hard fight but I think it's ok. I've been stuck on it now for well over 4 months of nightly runs and it can be very frustrating. I find sometimes the DF is getting better but due to not having time for a static I don't expect to clear it before the expansion although I'm pretty consistent up to dive bombs now.

I'd say T9 is the first real major roadblock/challenge for many people and I'd also say that T9 will be where most people give up on coil it's certainly not for everyone.The phases change so fast now and give very little time to react I find when most people hit a new phase they are instantly dead because there is so much going on in this fight.

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o.ob You can do it! If you can (through PF), get a tank who has macros for calling out the divebomb position. It's easier for the tanks to see where the dragons are from their position, because the healers and DPS are usually facing away from the dragons.

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Originally Posted by Eight

T9 is an extremely hard fight but I think it's ok. I've been stuck on it now for well over 4 months of nightly runs and it can be very frustrating. I find sometimes the DF is getting better but due to not having time for a static I don't expect to clear it before the expansion although I'm pretty consistent up to dive bombs now.

I'd say T9 is the first real major roadblock/challenge for many people and I'd also say that T9 will be where most people give up on coil it's certainly not for everyone.The phases change so fast now and give very little time to react I find when most people hit a new phase they are instantly dead because there is so much going on in this fight.

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Don't give up! You're closer than you realize, you really are. And it feels so good when you clear that first time, it makes all the frustration worth it. (/cheer)

Ehhnn. All right, serious post here, I'll bite.

Full disclosure: I eat dreadwyrm gear for breakfast so don't even try pulling that crap on me.

The problem with T9 is that it is basically as complex as T12 or T13, but T10 and T11 are far less complex than T9, feature less mechanics that are hard-coded instant death, and are only really "harder" in that they require either a higher item level or stricter DPS/Heal/Tank checks than post-Echo T9.

As i130 becomes accessible to even casual players though, that "difficulty" in FCOB rapidly deteriorates, while T9 continues to be a maze of instant-kill mechanics that are hopeless to pug without basically getting a carry. Especially now that nobody wants any of the loot in T9 but the 100 sol isn't quite worth carrying people like it is in T5.

Meanwhile, pretty much anyone with two braincells to rub together and IW/Zeta weapons could scrap out T10 or T11 in their sleep, as almost all of the phases are symmetrical with each other (boss->adds->boss with the same pattern + new gimmick) and only a couple of the mechanics are binary instant kills (some of which you have to almost deliberately trigger, like walking into Kaliya's killfield during T11 adds).

What does T9 as a gatekeeper in April 2015 do? Nothing. There is one mechanic set that you learn there that you take into FCOB - basically every boss asks you to do some variant of Meteor Stream/Thermionic Beam, that other boss fights also teach. T10 and T11 have bosses that, while having way higher numbers, are actually *far* less mechanically complex than the entirety of pre-nerf SCOB. Even Bahamut Prime, frankly, is less complex than Nael, because his "distinct phases" actually repeat a lot of mechanics.

Now, do I think Nael is a bad fight? No it's freaking awesome as something you'd use to end a content cycle. But as a gatekeeper it's terrible because it prepares you for absolutely nothing in FCOB.

poaskpaspokaposkpokoas

T9 is harder then anything in FCoB.

T9 is 4 different fights in one. Almost nothing carries over from one phase to the next.
Phase1 - beak, chariot, dives, meteors
Phase2 - Golems and more meteors
Phase3- Towers plus ghost
Phase4 - Claws, Elementals, Chariot, Dive Bombs

T12
Phase 1 Phoenix plus Black/White Fire
Phase 2 Phoenix plus Brand/Red/Blue Fire
Phase 3 Bennu farm
Phase 4 Phoenix plus Brand,fountains,pinions

Phoneix moves never really change so its 2-4 people doing mechanics while 4-6 just fight. With current gear levels the learning curve is fairly low and is more of a mechanics check like T8.

T13
Phase 1 - Flatten,Megaflare,Earthshakers
Phase 2 - Flatten,Megaflare,Rage (Orbs)
Phase 3 - Adds plus easy divebombs
Phase 4 - Repeat phase 1 plus Twisters

Very low learning curve with mechanics but requires min/maxing healing,DPS and tank rotations. Its more of a "can you play well" check then anything else.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Stuff

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You forgot the brands, revelations, and bennu spawns in phase 1 and 2. Not unique to those phases, but definitely will end your day quickly.

Is Phoenix overall as hard as Turn 9? Debatable, I think they are very close in difficulty. Two very different fights.

Point is: beating Nael is not some magical door to easy fights and free loot. That attitude will get you wiped over and over, quick.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Ehhnn. All right, serious post here, I'll bite.

Full disclosure: I eat dreadwyrm gear for breakfast so don't even try pulling that crap on me.

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You also might want to disclose when you got said kills and how since you added the note full disclosure.

'But as a gatekeeper it's terrible because it prepares you for absolutely nothing in FCOB'

Now for someone that is saying they are up there with high end progression, the note with eating dreadwyrm gear for breakfast. Doing more and more complex fights prepares you in more ways then one, it tightens up your timings, you begin to eek out more numbers, movements gets more precise, your statement here is false, makes me wonder if you did these kills legit and not boosted, people who do end game know very well how keeping up doing end game fights prepares you for things ahead, its why end game players constantly get better.

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Originally Posted by Ayrie

You forgot the brands, revelations, and bennu spawns in phase 1 and 2. Not unique to those phases, but definitely will end your day quickly.

Is Phoenix overall as hard as Turn 9? Debatable, I think they are very close in difficulty. Two very different fights.

Point is: beating Nael is not some magical door to easy fights and free loot. That attitude will get you wiped over and over, quick.

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Sorry I only posted the new mechanics. Revelation is the tank killer, if you got past T5 you know how to handle it. Beak+Blight and Claws are both more difficult.

My point was T9 there was a lot more to learn and almost every mechanic was an 8 man mechanic. Brand? 2 people. red/blue fire 2 people. Black/white 3 people. Fountains 3-4 people. That's it.

Some of the thoughts are skewed because T9 can now be done 20 ilvls higher (it was first done at i90 so 40 ilvls higher) with a 20% echo.

Any group that was farming T9 at i110 is definitely finding FCoB easy at i130.

If all 8 people know the mechanics, there's no need to type or use voice chat. The only reason you'd need to type is if you think one of your 8 is a moron who doesn't know how to do the mechanic and you're trying to warn them, at which point, you've already failed. There's no strict need for VOIP in this game; it's a help, but not a crutch or a win button.

The mistake I see many people here making is thinking this game is strictly affirmational like 95% of all the other games they've played in the past 10 years. It's undeniable that games have gone a little bit "soft"; rough edges are sanded down to be as smooth as a baby's bottom through tons of playtesting. Any time a player might spend an extra 30 seconds not knowing exactly where to go and what to do is a "problem spot" to be fixed. Like helicopter parents, games have become tools used solely to affirm that the player is really good and any feeling to the contrary is distressing to this worldview and they can't be allowed to feel that way. Sure, you may die in Call of Duty a few times, but you respawn 5 feet away without any consequence, ready to reassume your fabricated ubermensch persona, unassailable by the forces of the opposition.

It's fairly ironic that the OP has chosen Bloodborne as an example. Bloodborne, latest in the Demon's/Dark Souls milieu, which is part of a trend designed specifically to go AGAINST this affirmational coddling in video games (started with stuff like Super Meat Boy and Spelunky). Like Bloodborne, Coil doesn't bend over backward to provide the smooth experience that today's gamers "deserve". There's nothing impossible or unfair about the mechanics in Coil. You spent the time and the wipes in Coil either discovering or learning/perfecting the strategies used to clear each boss, just like in Dark Souls. You try different things, you discover weaknesses, you eventually succeed. That Coil isn't a loot piñata is not a valid criticism of its design. But alas, whenever a player is challenged in his worldview that he's not "good", they react: if someone kicks them for failing to learn mechanics in a timely matter or doing exceedingly poor DPS, they're elitist; if a fight is too difficult for this player to clear, it's a badly designed fight.

ITT: Someone who plays a mildly challenging game like dark souls/bloodborne, that is more facade than substance when it comes to being challenging, and wishes everything is lowered to those low standards.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Square Enix clearly thinks it's a milestone since you get an achievement upon first clear.

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http://puu.sh/h7TfI/714fb32e0d.jpg

http://puu.sh/h7Tk8/5e71626384.jpg

Dem milestones. You trip over an achievement pretty much anytime you even move ingame.

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Originally Posted by Eight

T9 is an extremely hard fight but I think it's ok. I've been stuck on it now for well over 4 months of nightly runs and it can be very frustrating. I find sometimes the DF is getting better but due to not having time for a static I don't expect to clear it before the expansion although I'm pretty consistent up to dive bombs now.

I'd say T9 is the first real major roadblock/challenge for many people and I'd also say that T9 will be where most people give up on coil it's certainly not for everyone.The phases change so fast now and give very little time to react I find when most people hit a new phase they are instantly dead because there is so much going on in this fight.

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You'd have been better off in a static group once or twice a week than in Duty Finder every single night for 4 months. Statics don't have to have a super hardcore schedule of 7 days a week for hours on end. You've spent far more time on the turn in Duty Finder than you would have in a static because of the nature of Duty Finder itself. It's hard to progress in the fight when it's a tossup on whether people will even know the first phase.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

http://puu.sh/h7TfI/714fb32e0d.jpg

http://puu.sh/h7Tk8/5e71626384.jpg

Dem milestones. You trip over an achievement pretty much anytime you even move ingame.



You'd have been better off in a static group once or twice a week than in Duty Finder every single night for 4 months. Statics don't have to have a super hardcore schedule of 7 days a week for hours on end. You've spent far more time on the turn in Duty Finder than you would have in a static because of the nature of Duty Finder itself. It's hard to progress in the fight when it's a tossup on whether people will even know the first phase.

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Sorry I didn't mean everynight but for statics the ones I've tried for don't work sadly but i'll eventually beat it.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

*snip*

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You think thats bad? Alien Isolation has an achievement for literally EVERYTHING

Fire gun one time? Achievement
Wave a stun baton one time? Achievement
Use a revolver? Achievement Yes, theres an achievement for using a specific type of gun. Dont ask me why.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

if you did these kills legit and not boosted, people who do end game

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Raider egos.txt

"Your kills aren't legit until you enter my official e-peen waving contest! You were boosted/carried/etc!"

Child, I spent $20 to get away from the server where the only groups were paid carries, because I wanted to get a legitimate T9 progression kill.

I bet if I linked one of my 600+ practice parse caps you'd scream that that was illegitimate too.

My statement is not false because I experienced it. There are no role checks in T9 any more. You do not "learn reflexes". You recite a pattern until 8 people get it right and the boss is dead. It does not prepare you for the actual, real role checks hiding behind what doing FCOB was like before the loot unlock.

Like c'mon, do you actually think T9 required the same skill today, with echo and pubbie i130, that you think it required in 2.2? Hell naw. But it still requires the tedium of getting 8 people to play Heavensfall Heavensfall Revolution to prove you're somehow good enough at your job to do 4 fights with less than half as many mechanics.

It sucks as a gate. "But your reflexes are sharper! You got better at your job!" You realize that like...Nael gives you larger reaction windows to her mechanics than some 2.1 EX Primals, right?

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Originally Posted by Krr

Raider egos.txt

"Your kills aren't legit until you enter my official e-peen waving contest! You were boosted/carried/etc!"

Child, I spent $20 to get away from the server where the only groups were paid carries, because I wanted to get a legitimate T9 progression kill.

I bet if I linked one of my 600+ practice parse caps you'd scream that that was illegitimate too.

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Nothing personnel, kid. *tips fedora*

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Originally Posted by Krr

My statement is not false because I experienced it. There are no role checks in T9 any more. You do not "learn reflexes". You recite a pattern until 8 people get it right and the boss is dead. It does not prepare you for the actual, real role checks hiding behind what doing FCOB was like before the loot unlock.

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Yep, it's like practicing for a coordinated dance routine.. You practice, practice and practice.. and if ONE person messes up on the actual showing, then you're screwed.
It's not like those people lack the ability to pull it off.. but one mistake, WIPE! Like I've said before, on Coils that's understandable, I just don't wanna have to do that for everything else too :(

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

You think thats bad? Alien Isolation has an achievement for literally EVERYTHING

Fire gun one time? Achievement
Wave a stun baton one time? Achievement
Use a revolver? Achievement Yes, theres an achievement for using a specific type of gun. Dont ask me why.

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It's there for the achievement hogs to get a sense of progress.. As trivial as the achievements may be, getting ALL of them to 100% is a task.. some people enjoy that.

Coil content can be achieved by anyone, you just have to want to clear it. Somehow people have this idea that they should be able to clear said content within the same amount of time as someone that works harder for runs. The turns takes what 15 mins at most when you clear them? Just take time to practice and learn, can't be any longer than farming stuff for your relics, nor as boring.

Saying you work and whatnot isn't a real excuse, that's just expecting to clear content at the same time as people that do have more time (and/or care more about the content) which is just illogical.
Attitudes can be bad on both sides of the fence but making easier content isn't the answer.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Coil content can be achieved by anyone, you just have to have others who want to clear it. Somehow people have this idea that they should be able to clear said content within the same amount of time as someone that works harder for runs. The turns takes what 15 mins at most when you clear them? Just take time to practice and learn, can't be any longer than farming stuff for your relics, nor as boring.

Saying you work and whatnot isn't a real excuse, that's just expecting to clear content at the same time as people that do have more time (and/or care more about the content) which is just illogical.
Attitudes can be bad on both sides of the fence but making easier content isn't the answer.

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fixed this for you.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

fixed this for you.

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Well that goes without saying. It is a mmo after all.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

fixed this for you.

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Just did yet another T5 clear for two more people, making a total of around 26 people I've helped clear T5 in the past two weeks. There are many, many people out there who want to clear Coil and who are willing to put in the time and effort to learn the fights; likewise, there are just as many of us who are willing to jump in and help the people who are making an earnest effort to take initiative to clear the content for themselves. The key words there are taking initiative-- all of the people I helped clear had taken the time to learn the fight for themselves rather than just expecting the rest of us to carry them through it.

They put in the effort and were rewarded with a clear. That's exactly how things should work.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

The turns takes what 15 mins at most when you clear them?

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(cough) in groups that spend up to 3 hours each night learning them and dealing with each other's screw-ups (cough)

also 'helping people in DF with T5' yeah a thing that started happening the exact moment people could get a >50% success ratio in DF for the 100 sol :rolleyes:

let's be real here, raiding 101:

-post all over the internet that you're lf static
-join static you fit the criteria of
-do content until you win
-only trust your fists
-pugs will never help you


pro tips:
-be prepared to server transfer. have an alt to stay in touch with your non-raider friends
-spin content gates as tryout opportunities
-keep gearing up. if you don't find something this patch, you will the next one
-pugs will seriously never help you in anything harder than t5
-unless your static is classified as HC it's okay if you suck, just don't be an ass about it. dropping someone for 'being bad' anywhere that isn't some kind of ridiculous elite club like collision or bg is often a last resort because believe it or not, most pf/friendlist substitutes will actually be worse than you and it takes days or even weeks to grab a good-looking replacement

Wait so what would you do for endgame in a game who's focus is not the hardcore crowd and the combat is dumbed down?
I see a lot of whining but no solid suggestions. After all these posts drop a well thought suggestion or move on. Bye Felicia

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Originally Posted by raelgun

You also might want to disclose when you got said kills and how since you added the note full disclosure.

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Of course. Only loot from T10 and 11 is not "eating to breakfast". These are the turns most PF parties can farm.

It's not so much about mechanics, but more about getting to heavensfall each time to LEARN it. Videos/guides only do so much without experiencing it, after all. However, when someone screws up learning later phases, you have to slog through all the meteors/golems AGAIN just to get back there. It's time consuming, and the "phase whiplash" you get starting over, makes it that much harder to recall those mechanics.

I'd like to see, not any change in difficulty, but a checkpoint at the heavensfall stage. That way, people won't be wasting time just to experience another 30 seconds of heavensfall mechanics.

Everyone wants to learn, and most people do put in the effort, but let them have a checkpoint somewhere on fights that (often) last over 10 minutes.

I agree with many posters that having important story content locked behind endgame raiding is silly. If there's serious story content, then it should not be in an endgame raid, or it should have a story mode version.

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Originally Posted by Krr

(cough) in groups that spend up to 3 hours each night learning them and dealing with each other's screw-ups (cough)

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My point is that raiding isn't beyond anyones reach, the content itself isn't long, learning it/progression varies. "working" or "having a life" isn't an excuse, especially if you are still willing to grind for relics.

SVHM last boss. You actually don't look at the cast bar in this fight. You closely watch 2 different bosses. Imagine that. I have more enjoyment out of svhm last boss than t9/13 anyday. In fact I think t13 is the most unfun raid in fcob. Maybe in all of coil lol T_T So long and boring T_T And my static is farming the crap out of this these days....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krr

(cough) in groups that spend up to 3 hours each night learning them and dealing with each other's screw-ups (cough)

let's be real here, raiding 101:

-post all over the internet that you're lf static
-pugs will never help you
pro tips:
-be prepared to server transfer. have an alt to stay in touch with your non-raider friends
-pugs will seriously never help you in anything harder than t5

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I have never raided more than 2 hours 3 times a week, never had to post all over the internet, just into community forums here, never had to server transfer even when I was in around 6 statics so far (since 2013) and I cleared T1-T4 and T6-T8 in pug parties + farmed T10-T12 with pugs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krr

Raider egos.txt

"Your kills aren't legit until you enter my official e-peen waving contest! You were boosted/carried/etc!"

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And yet all I read was garbage from this wall of text and still did not answer anything, all it was was simply hot air.

No evidence or anything and yet can not seem the fathom to why more people struggle with T9 and continue to struggle in final coil if they 'pass' T9. You also do not seem to have an answer to why those who did T9 in decent time also did all of final coil in decent time.

Experience only matters if you can prove where it counted and when.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

I have never raided more than 2 hours 3 times a week, never had to post all over the internet, just into community forums here, never had to server transfer even when I was in around 6 statics so far (since 2013) and I cleared T1-T4 and T6-T8 in pug parties + farmed T10-T12 with pugs.

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And to add to this, been in the same group for over a year now in FF14 and in WOW, I have been in only 2 raiding guilds for the duration of 5-6 years of playing and never had to server transfer for any of those nor have a alt lying around, oh and FF14 and WOW raiding, the schedule I have ran is 3 nights a week around 2- 2 and half hours a session.

And been pretty successful progression wise for all intents and purposes, people seem to think theres this extreme nature with raiding when there really isn't, makes you think how much experience they really have in this scene.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LTEvil

Wait so what would you do for endgame in a game who's focus is not the hardcore crowd and the combat is dumbed down?
I see a lot of whining but no solid suggestions. After all these posts drop a well thought suggestion or move on. Bye Felicia

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Something I would like to see is instead of mechanic on top of mechanic on top of mechanic all happening with an overlap effect where you are sometimes just running from Point A to Point B to Point C doing mechanics is this:


1) Simplify the number of mechanics to an easily memorable amount (players should not have to study like its a 100 question test) I would say no more than 4-5 mechanics
2) Slight increase in time between mechanic executions, as a pay off to keep the challenge alive, make the mechanics even less forgivable (as in you mess up, you die)

I would say that when designing content they should take into consideration that roughly 40%-50% of their players should be able to clear it while it is the newest content. 50%-70% cleared roughly three quarters before the next new content, and finally 70%-85% cleared by the time the next wave of endgame content arrives. I understand the Echo is what helps them achieve this in terms of get that clear percentage but based on what is seen on the game and on the forums they are no where near the percentages I've listed.

A good example of content they did that was good was when Titan EX first came out, it was challenging but fun, when you cleared it you had a feeling of accomplishment but it wasn't impossible. Now a year later and Titan EX is pretty easily completed (which is how it should be as the content is older).

An alternative is this: If they want to have fights with 5-15 mechanics all piled in they need to have check points. And since most of the 'phases' change dependent on the remaining HP of the monster this is entirely possible. HOWEVER, I feel the checkpoint would need to be executed only when the party has shown they can achieve reaching that phase consistently. Basically in application it would be something like:

(Using T9 as an example since its the popular one)

If the party can reach the Heavensfall phase of the fight 3 times consecutively they will be granted a checkpoint wherein they will start the fight with Nael at the max HP for that phase (60% or so iirc) and they will continue to start there instead of from the beginning. This will do two things:

1) It will make Rage Quitting less frequent.
2) It will prevent "battle fatigue" from happening as players won't be stuck in the same cycle over and over and can focus on learning the new mechanics.