FFXIV - A Step to P2W (My 2.45 Feedback)

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Are you seriously resorting to personal attacks now? You've just hit an all-time low.

You argue that the the pay to win stems from Gathering and Crafting classes. Answer me one thing; How does one level all their gathering and crafting classes in one night? To be a successful crafter, you need to level up all your crafting classes to get all the abilities (or at least most of them, but the harder the recipe, the more of those abilities you need). To be a successful gatherer, you need to get it to the level cap first. And as far as I know, both share the same tokens we call 'leve allowances', and this also shares use for battlecraft and grand company leves. Allowances regenerate by 3 every 12 hours. Pay-to-win bypasses the time-factor and gives you the best of the best immediately delivered to your doorstep with no strings attached. :P

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Not a personal attack, an honest question. You have proven in the past to be rather ignorant (the definition of RMT comes to mind)

Not in one night, but it only takes a few hours per class if you have the leves for it... Regardless the issue is that it can be done by leveraging real life money for ingame advantage. Even if I were to yield this point, you still cannot argue against buying BiS... Tho you realize that the known comparison to exp pots is a time reduction (as in not making the leve turnins yourself or earning the Gil to buy them ingame) not a time negation.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

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Although you claim it isn't a personal attack, it can be seen as one - and you're being very rude with that last remark of yours. Anyway, don't clump two sides as same just because they are categorized under the same type. It's like saying cows and zebras are the same because they are, 'herbivores'. "Hey Tommy, look at that herbivore! There's also herbivores at this zoo too! Look another herbivore!" It's a definition, not a name (Real Money Trading; Definition/Category. Real Money Traders; Name).

The only thing you've been explaining so far is 'time-factored pay-to-win'. I have yet to see proof that this is a significant advantage over other players. Best in slot gear can be earned given enough time - there's nothing stopping you from getting them. Buying BiS gear is also not guaranteed. You can still 'lose' at the game rather than 'win' if you failed with melding materia. :p

Is there any possible way that we can let this thread and topic die? I think this topic has run it's course.

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Originally Posted by Kuolema

Is there any possible way that we can let this thread and topic die? I think this topic has run it's course.

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+1. Its a dead horse, then we beat it up again, then we made it into horse burgers, then threw the burgers against the wall, then ate the burgers, sent them through our system, and then flushed it just to be sure it was extra dead.

I honestly feel like the previous posters don't get how your definition of P2W is flawed and hurts the entire player-base as a whole. It made my roommate unsubscrib and now he won't go buy eggs with me at our local market anymore. THANK YOSHI P.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Heck if you need to buy gil in a game where gil comes insanely easy..you're doing something horrendously wrong.

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Agree. Been leveling all craft classes from lvl36-37 up to lvl40 to get self-repair and in those few levels i made 500-600k gil just by leveling them, didnt even try to make any money really. Also using scrubby vendor gear so i got some nice crafter materias that went from 40 to 70k gil each and that too gave nice gil bonus on top of spammed mats.

Like hyperbole in a debate... your liberal font travesty demands that your argument be ignored, therefore you have lost. :-/

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Although you claim it isn't a personal attack, it can be seen as one - and you're being very rude with that last remark of yours. Anyway, don't clump two sides as same just because they are categorized under the same type. It's like saying cows and zebras are the same because they are, 'herbivores'. "Hey Tommy, look at that herbivore! There's also herbivores at this zoo too! Look another herbivore!" It's a definition, not a name (Real Money Trading; Definition/Category. Real Money Traders; Name).

The only thing you've been explaining so far is 'time-factored pay-to-win'. I have yet to see proof that this is a significant advantage over other players. Best in slot gear can be earned given enough time - there's nothing stopping you from getting them. Buying BiS gear is also not guaranteed. You can still 'lose' at the game rather than 'win' if you failed with melding materia. :p

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If you want to take my comment as rude, so be it, they say: life is 90% how you take it.

If you want a definition for RMT, the ToS supplies the only one applicable to this discussion. Buying or selling items, ingame services, characters, and currency for real money.

There is also your melding comment, you can buy fully melded crafting/gathering gear... Again you seem to be intentionally obfuscating the discussion.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

+1. Its a dead horse, then we beat it up again, then we made it into horse burgers, then threw the burgers against the wall, then ate the burgers, sent them through our system, and then flushed it just to be sure it was extra dead.

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I'm glad your server no longer has pf's up 23-24 hours per day, but hey, keep bumping it so SE can see we still don't like it, and they should hurry up with a patch already.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

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But I DO like it. The sellable bracelets, in my opinion, are the best thing to happen to this game since personal housing came out. it has revitalized a stagnant in-game economy, and given me a reason to play again.

Its also one of the reasons why I resubbed for 180 days, instead of month to month. I like the direction that the game is taking, and hope for the future.

That said, there are 3 parties in this wedding band transaction: SE, the person who bought the band, and sold it for gil, and the person getting the band. SE wins because more money. The person getting the bracelet wins because they can now get married. the loser here is the person who bought the bracelet and sold it for gil, because the IRL money it took to make that 50k, took lon ger to make in IRL than it would have to have played the game.

and we do have pf's 20 hours a day, they are just nearly giving away the bracelets, because they are worthless.

You know what? This discussion is pointless and boring. It's basically the same arguments being thrown around over and over and over and over again, and someone will go, "No, you're wrong and I'm right. All your points are invalid because you have no proof," so I'll leave it with a note (that has been posted a bunch of times already, mind you), that have yet to answered;

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I have yet to see proof that this is a significant advantage over other players. Best in slot gear can be earned given enough time - there's nothing stopping you from getting them. :p

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Before you say "no effort needed", "skipped the gearing process", "shortcut instant-win button bypasses effort " or somewhere along those lines;

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Nor does other people's efforts ever get downgraded by the play of others. Effort is still required to get everything, and right now, paying money does not grant you immortality.

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The gear was placed on the Market Board for one intention only; to be sold. The only people winning in this situation would be the already 4* crafters selling those gear, SE for gaining profit from selling the bracelets, and the ones who can't shell out some dough to buy a bracelet themselves and decided to get them with gil which is now available to them because they are tradeable. What do the people who sell them get? A world full of hurt, because you don't gain anything worthwhile. Unless bragging rights counts, I guess. :p

Note: What I meant by "immortality" is that all gear will eventually become obsolete and get replaced between big patches. Just saying. :)

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Originally Posted by tocsin

But I DO like it. The sellable bracelets, in my opinion, are the best thing to happen to this game since personal housing came out. it has revitalized a stagnant in-game economy, and given me a reason to play again.

Its also one of the reasons why I resubbed for 180 days, instead of month to month. I like the direction that the game is taking, and hope for the future.

That said, there are 3 parties in this wedding band transaction: SE, the person who bought the band, and sold it for gil, and the person getting the band. SE wins because more money. The person getting the bracelet wins because they can now get married. the loser here is the person who bought the bracelet and sold it for gil, because the IRL money it took to make that 50k, took lon ger to make in IRL than it would have to have played the game.

and we do have pf's 20 hours a day, they are just nearly giving away the bracelets, because they are worthless.

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...Yo...you... Like the direction the game is taking? Do you realize people like you are the cause most P2P go to P2W model later on? Accepting that money should take part on the gaming performance...Oh damn, I won't even search for the facepalm image again...

Loosers or winners, regardless of that. The option of RMT shouldn't be there for starting. Games, especially subscription based ones, should never give a way to make it so real money can somehow affect what you do inside the game.

Eventually this game will go free to play anyways so might as well load up on those bracelets for that fateful day when you can sell them for huge amounts of gil..

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Originally Posted by Kuolema

Eventually this game will go free to play anyways so might as well load up on those bracelets for that fateful day when you can sell them for huge amounts of gil..

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That, dear friend, is the terrible FATE I'd like to avoid for the game, I know it's difficult though, seeing it has already started the process....

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

That, dear friend, is the terrible FATE I'd like to avoid for the game, I know it's difficult though, seeing it has already started the process....

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It may not happen right away but it will happen. Not all MMO's can be as successful as WoW.

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Originally Posted by Kuolema

It may not happen right away but it will happen. Not all MMO's can be as successful as WoW.

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If FFXI is still going with a subscription after all this time, I doubt FFXIV will ever stop being sub-based, either. SE isn't a bunch of pushovers like most Korean companies. They're stubborn as hell.

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Originally Posted by Kuolema

Not all MMO's can be as successful as WoW.

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Not all MMO's need to be as successful to be profitable and still have massive margins. The cash shop has nothing to do with the cost of the content they are creating or the money they "need" MMOs generally make money hand over fist unless subscriber numbers are low (and I mean very low) a MMO usually runs F2P once the subscription model is no longer making them money.

Maybe this game Will go F2P if they keep pushing content that some find aren't worth the entry fee. Only time can tell, the one thing that's for sure is that they do not need the cash shop income to run this as a vastly profitable game. It's a greedy gambit that may or may not pay off for them.

*edit*

There is also the fact that going "Free to Play" is in the medias eyes when a MMO "Fails" to the anti-cash shop group we at least have this going for us that SE has allready shown themselves willing to spend money rather than have themselves seen as a failure with their flagship franchise.

I'm sure most people might try to cite that the most recent set of Final Fantasy games have had DLC (Even so they aren't subscription games anyways) What has the most recent set of Final Fantasy games been seen by the gaming media? (A massive source of their sales hinge on these reveiwers)

They have been torn apart for their shady DLC practices

-All the Bravest ring any bells?
-XIII series has been critically panned from it's first instalment to the last for gameplay reasons and cutting of content to sell on the side.

The suits pulling the developers strings might want to remember that DLC isn't as "Industry standard" as they want to think.
http://thatdamnpixel.files.wordpress...16535291_n.jpg

Why do you think EA has suffered the last few years from massive customer backlash?

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

...Yo...you... Like the direction the game is taking? Do you realize people like you are the cause most P2P go to P2W model later on? Accepting that money should take part on the gaming performance...Oh damn, I won't even search for the facepalm image again...

Loosers or winners, regardless of that. The option of RMT shouldn't be there for starting. Games, especially subscription based ones, should never give a way to make it so real money can somehow affect what you do inside the game.

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'The old order changeth yielding place to new..." Alfred Tennyson

Your ideas of what games should or should not do is outdated. Yoshi-P said himself that he believes the "p2w/f2p cash shop" model, and the "subscription based model" can coexist together to the benefit of the game. this is just the first step.

Be a progressive, and embrace an experiment in innovation!

This p2w model is like a donation button with tiered rewards. if you want to contribute more to making the game better, then you can get in-game rewards. I like that.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

'The old order changeth yielding place to new..." Alfred Tennyson

Your ideas of what games should or should not do is outdated. Yoshi-P said himself that he believes the "p2w/f2p cash shop" model, and the "subscription based model" can coexist together to the benefit of the game. this is just the first step.

Be a progressive, and embrace an experiment in innovation!

This p2w model is like a donation button with tiered rewards. if you want to contribute more to making the game better, then you can get in-game rewards. I like that.

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I thought it wasn't p2w? You pro cash shop people flip flop more then you accuse us of.

Edit to add: yoshi actually said that he would not introduce p2w, that a pure vanity cash shop could co-exist with the sub model

You know...this thread is funny. Because I think its more about jealousy than anything. It sounds like we have on one side people that spent a lot of time and effort into the game and can't enjoy it if they see someone else do the same thing in a shorter amount of time, and the other side we have people that really don't care, they just want the game to stay around for a long time. Now this is what i wonder...If all these people that are worried about newbies getting x amount of gil for selling bracelets were to quit their subscription, what percentage of the entire player base would SE lose? I dont think it would be even 5%. Do you know why SE really hadn't done anything about it? because they don't have to. Its temporary. People, just grow up. Who cares that johnny got 10 gil for a bracelet to buy gear that I sold cause i dont even need it anymore? Johnny is paying a sub. he keeps paying a sub. Its not breaking the game.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

I thought it wasn't p2w? You pro cash shop people flip flop more then you accuse us of.

Edit to add: yoshi actually said that he would not introduce p2w, that a pure vanity cash shop could co-exist with the sub model

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the bands arent p2w, even close. the idea of p2w in a subscription model, however, is one I can definitely support. Best idea SE has had in the past 6 months.

All I have to say, you people think that cash shop items are causing RMT? Just wait until the expansion is out, people will sell its keys for in-game currency just like EVERY other MMO out there. It eventually happens and you can't stop it.