[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

We come from FFXI so we're used to a grind. The carrot on that stick is too far for non-FF MMO players. As much as you guys hate it; SE will need their support to keep the game alive in the future.

Another progression flowchart by Shuichi: http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/9...nchcasepal.png

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Originally Posted by solracht

It's not about leveling as gladiator to become a paladin, it's about choosing to be a paladin as your gladiator. It can't be an endgame goal, it's a leveling/advancement path.

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I know. But Rank 20 is definitly too early. I also would like that to be a real goal and motivation and not something you can do in one day.
I also would only agree to the classical jobs as side things, if they get their own weapons/gear.
A Dark Knight with s small sword and a shield would look somehow realy wrong.

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Originally Posted by Jabo

I know. But Rank 20 is definitly too early. I also would like that to be a real goal and motivation and not something you can do in one day.
I also would only agree to the classical jobs as side things, if they get their own weapons/gear.
A Dark Knight with s small sword and a shield would look somehow realy wrong.

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Please for the love of god. READ the OP.

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Originally Posted by Jabo

I know. But Rank 20 is definitly too early. I also would like that to be a real goal and motivation and not something you can do in one day.
I also would only agree to the classical jobs as side things, if they get their own weapons/gear.
A Dark Knight with s small sword and a shield would look somehow realy wrong.

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The real goal and motivation is getting your Paladin armor. The real goal and motivation is getting that ultimate paladin skill at the end of the tree.

There are certainly enough goals in this system. Leveling as a class that a lot of people have found uninteresting or boring (our current ones) for weeks will counter any motivation to reach the interesting part, I believe.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Another progression flowchart by Shuichi: http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/9...nchcasepal.png

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Good Work! Like the idea realy much.

Small thing whitch i noticed in the first post:
I'm pretty shure Dark Knight wouldn't get a scythe, because botanists tools are already named so.

Personally I see a Dark Knight with a Great Sword. (Was also a favored Weapon in FFXI)
I would realy love to see that. (or any 2.Hand-Sword Class)

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Please for the love of god. READ the OP.

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Yourse isn't the only opinion/sugesstion in this thread and so there is the possibility that this comment wasn't addressed to you. ;)
It was a general statement on my point of view. Thats all.

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@solracht
Well, in my opinion getting a advenced specialisation should be also a motivation. Otherwise (especially considering your opinion that the current classes aren't fun) it would make much more sense to replace them all together.
What is the point if you have to level 2h to get youre specialisation? And if playing a current class is so bad, why bother doing it even to Rank 20
Make it a long term goal or cut it. Thats my opinion.

BTW
I realy do like playing with my Gladiator.

Yes I'm aware. Great Sword fits better since it also falls in line with Gladiator which is a Sword User.

While I commend the effort and thought you've put into your suggestion I can't agree with it as it is proposed.

I do not feel that your suggestion will give the freedom you seem to want to offer, while giving players who cannot think of their own path a linear progression.

I personally do not see a need for a class system in any RPG. This just masks that with the ability to choose what class you are after 30.

I will give you a good example of what you've described. EQ2 pre-combat and career changes.

You chose a warrior, who at level 10 could choose a subtype who then at 20? could choose a specialized role. Quite frankly it was overly complex when the exact same choice could have been made at level one, so why not go that far with the suggestion?

Why should I have to play 30 levels of a subclass I don't want to really play just to unlock the class I do want to play(I am not in favor of this either, it is just an example)?

I must prefer a classless system where the player can choose the role they which to fulfill by choosing from a selection of skills to level up. Now, I do know this is not how it is now - it is the direction I would like it to go.

Well, I wish you luck in polishing your idea so that it may sway a player's opinion such as my own. Take care!

-Have Fun

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

While I commend the effort and thought you've put into your suggestion I can't agree with it as it is proposed.

I do not feel that your suggestion will give the freedom you seem to want to offer, while giving players who cannot think of their own path a linear progression.

I personally do not see a need for a class system in any RPG. This just masks that with the ability to choose what class you are after 30.

I will give you a good example of what you've described. EQ2 pre-combat and career changes.

You chose a warrior, who at level 10 could choose a subtype who then at 20? could choose a specialized role. Quite frankly it was overly complex when the exact same choice could have been made at level one, so why not go that far with the suggestion?

Why should I have to play 30 levels of a subclass I don't want to really play just to unlock the class I do want to play(I am not in favor of this either, it is just an example)?

I must prefer a classless system where the player can choose the role they which to fulfill by choosing from a selection of skills to level up. Now, I do know this is not how it is now - it is the direction I would like it to go.

Well, I wish you luck in polishing your idea so that it may sway a player's opinion such as my own. Take care!

-Have Fun

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I wish people would explain why they feel a certain way and give examples. Please tell me how this would not promote freedom for players.

Rank 30 was used as an example in the OP and I even stated that thats what it was. We've decided that the rank 15-20 point would be best. Also you wouldn't be playing 30 levels of a subclass because the current classes evolve into the Advanced classes through natural progression. Think of it like reaching that point where you changed your appearance in Legend of Dragoon something of that nature.

And if this system is like anything... it's clearly WoW.

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

Why should I have to play 30 levels of a subclass I don't want to really play just to unlock the class I do want to play(I am not in favor of this either, it is just an example)?

-Have Fun

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In my opinion, you still are playing the class you like from level 1. I mean, with the Gladiator/Paladin example, you'll still be tanking as a low level Gladiator if you would like up until you actually choose to specialize as Paladin. It is just all of the very specific and powerful class skills, such as the high level paladin cures, are reserved for a paladin only. This is to give that specific class an identity and a use once you reach that point.

Someone aiming to be a Dark Knight would have the choice of equipping more damage based abilities at low levels rather than defense based. This option is still available to Gladiator in this system, because of the cross-class abilities at the lower levels.

The level requirement for advanced jobs is also good because it helps determine which job abilities will be strictly for that specific class, and which will be usable on other classes.

Let's see if I get it. Again, I am obtuse at times. Please take no offense at my ignorance.

So Gladiator (Sword User) can at a certain Swordsmanship rank (say Rank 25) have the option to complete a quest that makes a specific job tree available. Paladin, Dark Knight, Samurai, Soldier, and/or Thief comes to mind.

The same character also has Marauder and Pugilist at Rank 25, and therefore have the option to complete quests that make the job trees for Dark Knight, Thief, Monk, and Soldier available as well.

So the character can be a Thief (i.e. use abilities from the Thief Job Tree) whether wielding an ax, knuckles, or sword. If the character decides to start ranking up Thaumaturge at 1, he will not have access to any of the abilities of the Thief Job Tree while wielding either a wand or radical (conjurer weapons), even if he gets Conjurer to Rank 25, because Thief is not an available job tree to Conjurers.

As I type this out I think I'm remembering why I do not like specialization trees. But let me reserve judgment until you have a chance to respond. Like I said before, I can be mistaken.

I thought of this while running after work, what about the people that don't want to do an advanced class? would they get talent points to put in their spec tree too? for instance, instead of at rank 15 a gladiator getting a talent point to put in his pld spec or drk spec, he would be able to spec his base class gladiator.

remember, that alot of people played war, thf, mnk in ff:xi rather than go advanced job.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Let's see if I get it. Again, I am obtuse at times. Please take no offense at my ignorance.

So Gladiator (Sword User) can at a certain Swordsmanship rank (say Rank 25) have the option to complete a quest that makes a specific job tree available. Paladin, Dark Knight, Samurai, Soldier, and/or Thief comes to mind.

The same character also has Marauder and Pugilist at Rank 25, and there for have the option to complete quests that make the job trees for Dark Knight, Thief, Monk, and Soldier available as well.

So the character can be a Thief (i.e. use abilities from the Thief Job Tree) whether wielding an ax, knuckles, or sword. If the character decides to start ranking up Thaumaturge at 1, he will not have access to any of the abilities of the Thief Job Tree while wielding either a wand or radical (conjurer weapons), even if he gets Conjurer to Rank 25, because Thief is not an available job tree to Conjurers.

As I type this out I think I'm remembering why I do not like specialization trees. But let me reserve judgment until you have a chance to respond. Like I said before, I can be mistaken.

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First off, under my proposal certain Advanced Classes will be made possible from a particular Base Class. You would not have Thief/Dark Knight appearing for Pugilist and Gladiator (one or the other) otherwise its both unfair and unbalanced. When I put that in the OP I said those were examples of where they could be based on Dagger falling under Sword in FFXIV.

If they used this and Pugilist turns into a Thief/Monk/Ninja then if you want to level a Thief you will have to start as a Pugilist.

If that player starts playing Thaumaturge they will not have access to the Thief specs unless they switch back to Gladiator.

I think you're confusing yourself with the FFT unlocks that were suggested. I'd personally rather not have them but players seem to want it and it works with the system so whatever.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

I thought of this while running after work, what about the people that don't want to do an advanced class? would they get talent points to put in their spec tree too? for instance, instead of at rank 15 a gladiator getting a talent point to put in his pld spec or drk spec, he would be able to spec his base class gladiator.

remember, that alot of people played war, thf, mnk in ff:xi rather than go advanced job.

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No that wont be possible. The devs are planning to make the base class more or less irrelevant. It's just a starting point to a classic FF class. Future content is balanced under the assumption that everyone is playing an advanced class.

Also, in the OP I said that calling FFXI's PLD/DRK/NIN/SAM/etc an "Advanced Job" was incorrect. They are not advanced; they are just an extra job that needed to be unlocked. If FFXI's initial jobs were the base and they had Advanced jobs then the Warrior would have turned into a Knight; think FFI.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

If FFXI's initial jobs were the base and they had Advanced jobs then the Warrior would have turned into a Knight; think FFI.

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In this case though, the name and appearance change was merely for story's sake. Warrior could have still been called warrior and looked like a warrior but have "Knight" skills. It was still a totally linear progression path; the change was mere smoke and mirrors.

Though as you could see it, specializations are a way of expanding a class that already exists. It could simply be semantics, but it seems like it's important.

The way you word it (though it could be his intention, idk), it sounds like the base jobs, PUG/GLD etc are disappearing, and in a sense they are, but they're still intact despite it not being... obvious.

Which is why I suggested that cross class abilities come from the basic jobs (which would ideally grow as well) which still gives them purpose and doesn't make them irrelevant like you say the devs intend (which is not the impression I get).

There's also a possibility of the basic jobs being a middle ground. I know some people like the middle ground (it doesn't bode with this thread, which is just my assumption), GLD would be a mix of offense and defense, while DRK and PLD tend to swing in polar opposite directions.

Yeah now we're arguing semantics again. I was just trying to make an example of FFXI with linear progression and an actual Advanced Class.

I agreed with you when you initially said it. There should be abilities that are cross class but they should be generic stuff that wouldn't be too overpowered or take away from any other class. 14 has a plethora of generic abilities they could shuffle around and spread throughout the levels 1-50. Spells every 2 levels is really dumb imo.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Let's see if I get it. Again, I am obtuse at times. Please take no offense at my ignorance.

So Gladiator (Sword User) can at a certain Swordsmanship rank (say Rank 25) have the option to complete a quest that makes a specific job tree available. Paladin, Dark Knight, Samurai, Soldier, and/or Thief comes to mind.

The same character also has Marauder and Pugilist at Rank 25, and therefore have the option to complete quests that make the job trees for Dark Knight, Thief, Monk, and Soldier available as well.

So the character can be a Thief (i.e. use abilities from the Thief Job Tree) whether wielding an ax, knuckles, or sword. If the character decides to start ranking up Thaumaturge at 1, he will not have access to any of the abilities of the Thief Job Tree while wielding either a wand or radical (conjurer weapons), even if he gets Conjurer to Rank 25, because Thief is not an available job tree to Conjurers.

As I type this out I think I'm remembering why I do not like specialization trees. But let me reserve judgment until you have a chance to respond. Like I said before, I can be mistaken.

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In order to be a THF, a character must have achieved level 20/25/XX of the base class Pugilist (PUG would be the foundation for all branching classes). Then, by completing the correct class quest, they are rewarded with a dagger that can only be used by THF. In order to change classes to THF, they would need to equip the appropriate arm. They can only access THF abilities by equipping a THF appropriate weapon. Since THF is an specialized class, most (if not all) of their actions can only be equipped on the action bar by the class THF. This would, however, require some reworking as to which class can equip which weapon.

If you look at PUG right now in FFXIV it actually shares traits from MNK/NIN/THF.
MNK: Uses martial arts. (Pummel)
NIN: Uses debuffing tactics to debilitate enemies (Concussive Blow)
THF: Uses evasive tactics and attacks enemies from vulnerable spots (Blindside, Featherfoot)

So if a player has a goal of becoming a THF (under this system we would have player development goals), they would need to start out with PUG, reach the branching point, and complete the quest to develop THF.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Yeah now we're arguing semantics again.

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And I only do so because it feels like that aspect is being lost or buried, which would be a real shame.

It's funny, because though I feel like I disagree with you sometimes, I don't.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

First off, under my proposal certain Advanced Classes will be made possible from a particular Base Class. You would not have Thief/Dark Knight appearing for Pugilist and Gladiator (one or the other) otherwise its both unfair and unbalanced. When I put that in the OP I said those were examples of where they could be based on Dagger falling under Sword in FFXIV.

If they used this and Pugilist turns into a Thief/Monk/Ninja then if you want to level a Thief you will have to start as a Pugilist.

If that player starts playing Thaumaturge they will not have access to the Thief specs unless they switch back to Gladiator.

I think you're confusing yourself with the FFT unlocks that were suggested. I'd personally rather not have them but players seem to want it and it works with the system so whatever.

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I might be. If so I apologize. I'm trying to learn your system so that I do not prejudge or leap to false conclusions (e.g. this is too restrictive). I may eventually come to that conclusion, but I don't want to before I completely understand what you are proposing.

If I understand what you just stated, the only way for a character to gain access to the Monk Job Tree is to rank Hand-to-Hand up. The only way for a character to gain access to the Dark Knight Job Tree is to rank Swordsmanship up. The only way for a character to gain access to the Berserker Job Tree is to rank Axemanship.

In order to have a Berserker that uses a sword, or a Dark Knight that uses an axe, or a Monk that uses a staff, we would need to have those Job Trees have traits like "Equip Sword", "Equip Axe", and "Equip Staff" in order to bypass the Armory System rules.

Or not, and just have those particular job trees be restricted to the weapon of the underlying Armory Class. Just so that we're clear, I am certainly not recommending that. And I don't think you are either.

Have I got it so far, or am I completely off in left field here?

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I might be. If so I apologize. I'm trying to learn your system so that I do not prejudge or leap to false conclusions (e.g. this is too restrictive). I may eventually come to that conclusion, but I don't want to before I complete understand what you are proposing.

If I understand what you just stated, the only way for a character to gain access to the Monk Job Tree is to rank Hand-to-Hand up. The only way for a character to gain access to the Dark Knight Job Tree is to rank Swordsmanship up. The only way for a character to gain access to the Berserker Job Tree is to rank Axemanship.

In order to have a Berserker that uses a sword, or a Dark Knight that uses an axe, or a Monk that uses a staff, we would need to have those Job Trees have traits like "Equip Sword", "Equip Axe", and "Equip Staff" in order to bypass the Armory System rules.

Or not, and just have those particular job trees be restricted to the weapon of the underlying Armory Class. Just so that we're clear, I am certainly not recommending that. And I don't think you are either.

Have I got it so far, or am I completely off in left field here?

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You would not be able to use Equip Sword, Equip Axe, Equip Staff on another spec besides the one that gets it... That restriction is there to prevent what we have now.

I'm working under the assumption that SE will not change its Weapon = Class feature.

While you have explained everything very well Kuroki, I stand by the fact that we are putting limitations on the character, and a lot at that. Which is fine in one way, but I am still of the mind that SE fixing Stats and Elemental Stats would accomplish some of what you state in your OP.

We know that each class has strengths in two of the Stats lets say for a Glad main stats as it stands would be VIT/STR Major stats and Dex as a third lets call it the minor stat. If we go your route and build a PLD then we would go VIT/STR and instead of Dex put some into Int for cure spells. If we went DRK then we would be doing STR/DEX Major and MND minor for increase in spell damage.

Let us now throw in working Elemental Stats (E.Stats) in the works, they would need to add light and dark into the mix (why they did not is beyond me) for this to work properly. They do not work as intended so instead of fixing it to work the way they were meant to work I would say have them increase your abilities. What I mean by this is that if you where a DRK you would put points into various E.Stats to increase your Dark spells, some in Dark, some in (suggestion) to increase BIO or Poison or what ever other dark spell you have. If you prefer PLD then you want to increase Light in your E.Stats to increase your Cure or what ever other light spell you have.

So similar to XI I guess, but you still have the option to use some of the other stuff that you learned from leveling/ranking up some other job. For example Marauder on STR/DEX since you have less points in Dex the abilities from a Marauder would be less so therefor you are not going to use them as much since they are not that effective. Let us throw in the E.Stats to make it even better, let us say you are using an ability such as Defender (which should of been a Gladadin ability to begin with) if it's E.Stat is Earth based and that E.Stat is lower because it does not do much for your DRK you can still use the ability but it will not be that great.

I do agree though that there should be some limitations, the classes are not that great but can become better, the specialization in my head is that instead of all abilities being able to be used across the board there will only be a subset that can be used and all others will be for certain classes specifically. For example Life Surge for Lancer can not be used by another class, if they do that as a way of Specializing the class then it will make you lean more towards that class if you like the skills/spells they have.

I don't really know how to fix it but I hope I was able to give you an idea of how your system can work Kuroki. I do not want to have the ability to change my Stats taken away and have predefined stats as a solution this is something that was done in XI.

In my proposal I removed Physical Point Allotment / Physical Level in favor of stats based on rank/class like in XI. You will be able to raise your stats by using points within the specialization but not to the extent at which was allowed by physical points.

Limitations is like all things; too much or too little of it is bad.

+1. My main gripe with FFXIV at the moment (besides no content, which no doubt will be remedied) is class homogenization.

I would also like to add my support to this idea. My favorite FF games have always involved unlocking advanced classes. My only concern is using a talent tree system. As long as it is not an exact copy of WoW. Something along the lines previously mentioned like a grid or sphere system would be awesome and very FF like.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

You would not be able to use Equip Sword, Equip Axe, Equip Staff on another spec besides the one that gets it... That restriction is there to prevent what we have now.

I'm working under the assumption that SE will not change its Weapon = Class feature.

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So that I am clear, this restriction is to prevent what, precisely? No sarcasm. I am just unclear.

Taking high level abilities/traits from other classes as was stated in the OP. This is in an effort to make classes unique. The mix-matching going on right now is running rampant in the worst possible way.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

- Players are able to branch out into another spec but minimum amount of points must be spent in 1 spec before moving into another. Example: 30 in MNK / 5 in NIN (for some Evasion+% buff).

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I know we should learn to walk before we should run, but what are your thoughts of being able to allocate maybe a max of 5 or 10 specialization points into another class altogether? Such as a Dark putting 5 points into BLM specialization and picking up a low level Ancient Magic? You could impose cross-discipline penalties, such as halved damage or something, but it would lead to pretty cool combinations.

EDIT: And maybe I am clinging to the current system way too much. But I do think that if the abilities from other classes are nerfed enough when crossing over that it isn't practical to someone trying to min/max their character, then it isn't going to create the problem we have now.

But the DRK would not be specced from the BLM base class Conjurer. That goes against the rules laid out.

And what exactly is a "low level Ancient Magic"? The lowest AM spell in FFXI was 49ish and in this game its low 40s.

Honestly, if that were an option with DRK being the melee oriented damage class it has been and is being made out to be here; Why on earth would you want to spend extra points on nukes?

You were allowed to play DRK/BLM in FFXI that doesnt mean you did it. This illusion of freedom is toxic in the end you're going to be deciding from a small pool of things - those choices might as well be good.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

But the DRK would not be specced from the BLM base class Conjurer. That goes against the rules laid out.

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I'm saying what if you just had specialization points to spend based on the current level of your selected job that could be spent in any other classes specialization tree. You would have to spend the minimum amount of points in your current class first before you could branch out (say 15-20 points if we're saying specialization starts at lvl 20), and then you could spend points in other trees to get unique stats and skills from the other classes, but only up to a maximum to prevent stealing of too many skills.

EDIT: And I realize after rereading this that it wasn't clear. You have to have leveled BLM as well, in order to access that tree.

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And what exactly is a "low level Ancient Magic"? The lowest AM spell in FFXI was 49ish and in this game its low 40s.

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Yeah, maybe not AM, that was too ambitious, but a decent nuke spell. One that wouldn't be available to players from the base classes.

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Originally Posted by Killirz

I'm saying what if you just had specialization points to spend based on the current level of your selected job that could be spent in any other classes specialization tree. You would have to spend the minimum amount of points in your current class first before you could branch out (say 15-20 points if we're saying specialization starts at lvl 20), and then you could spend points in other trees to get unique stats and skills from the other classes, but only up to a maximum to prevent stealing of too many skills.



Yeah, maybe not AM, that was too ambitious, but a decent nuke spell. One that wouldn't be available to players from the base classes.

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As I said before, in what I've laid out it wouldn't work but they could do it. I personally don't like the idea of letting players jump to a completely different advanced class and picking skills altogether. They should be confined to their own trees/spheres/grids.

I'm of the opinion that the base classes have generic abilities that can be cross-classed while advanced class skills/traits are specific to that class and the others tied to which it branched off from.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Taking high level abilities/traits from other classes as was stated in the OP. This is in an effort to make classes unique. The mix-matching going on right now is running rampant in the worst possible way.

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I see. Thank you, sir. I have some more questions so that I can make comparisons to character capabilities in FFXI. Please understand I'm trying to gauge whether or not what is being proposed is a step forward or backward from the previous Square-Enix MMORPG.

In FFXI (before the any level-cap removal), a character that /WHM could cast Raise, as long as they had enough MP. BLM/WHM, RDM/WHM, heck even MNK/WHM could cast Raise.

It seems that in the proposed system, only a character with the White Mage Job Tree can cast Raise (or Resurrect). And that the only Armory Class with access to the White Mage Job Tree will be Conjurer.

Is that a fair comparison, or have I misunderstood how the proposed system will work?

Thats correct. They could make abilities for other classes that serves the same purpose but Raise would be in that tree (it could be lower tiered so that RDM and BLMs can get it but no one outside of CON).

Hello all, this is my first post, even though I have been reading and following pretty much almost everything everyone suggests about the changes they would love to see in XIV, I think this post has a lot of potential...now I have not read everyones comments or replies to the OP, and if someone has already commented on what I am about to say, I apologize in advance. I love the idea of advanced classes, but how about if the so called base classes were used to unlock the advanced classes, but still had some relevance in the game, I mean if the original classes unlocked and advanced to another class to specialize then you're left with the original classes gathering dust...and honestly these new classes are really fun to play, and I and maybe even more people would love to take them to what ever max level/rank SE has in store for us.

Oh and by the way OP, your post is a pretty amazing read.

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Originally Posted by Allistar

Hello all, this is my first post, even though I have been reading and following pretty much almost everything everyone suggests about the changes they would love to see in XIV, I think this post has a lot of potential...now I have not read everyones comments or replies to the OP, and if someone has already commented on what I am about to say, I apologize in advance. I love the idea of advanced classes, but how about if the so called base classes were used to unlock the advanced classes, but still had some relevance in the game, I mean if the original classes unlocked and advanced to another class to specialize then you're left with the original classes gathering dust...and honestly these new classes are really fun to play, and I and maybe even more people would love to take them to what ever max level/rank SE has in store for us.

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That would be more classes to be balanced in the end and extra work considering they are.

Also I'm going on this:

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Yoshida-san is between two possible plans at this time. The first idea is that the traditional names would be introduced as “higher” or “advanced” classes. The traditional classes would thus be something of a goal for players. The second idea is that the traditional names would be more of a subset or specialization within the existing classes.

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Neither of those choices leaves room for the current classes to be fully functioning classes along with the FF ones. So I made them transition into the advanced class (specializations).

One last question.

There are over 40 traditional Final Fantasy jobs. I don't expect any system to be able to handle them all. But how expandable will the proposed system be after the initial half dozen to dozen Job Trees are introduced? Would all the existing Job Trees need to be rebalanced and/or reassigned, if SE wanted to introduce a Musketeer or Bard Armory Class? What if SE wanted to make a Soldier or Blue Mage Job Tree available? Would additional Classes and Job Trees be easy to add?

I know, that was about 3 questions. I apologize in advance for my probing.

Adding new classes and trees would be easy and they wouldn't need to re-balance the older classes unless they were adding an extra spec to the an existing tree. They would need to make sure that everything falls in inline with whats there if thats the case.

I could see them adding classes in either patches or expansions (the latter would require more to make it worth it of course). A patch would introduce 1 base class with 2-3 different Advanced Class paths that branch of it.

Thank you, Kurokikaze for answering all my questions. I have to admit that I do prefer an advanced job system more akin to Final Fantasy Tactics versus the system that is being proposed here.

The proposed system is comprehensive, but relatively complex due to the point sub-system, the Job Tree restrictions, and the necessary overhaul of a majority of the Armory Class abilities to the Job Trees. Some character progress would be effectively wiped by the change over. The proposed system is also more restrictive than the job/subjob system from FFXI. Some might consider that a step backwards, rather than evolution forward.

I also disagree with your interpretation of Naoki Yoshida's interview. Yoshida-san never stated that he was scrapping, eliminating, or depreciating the existing Armory Classes. The proposed system assumes and seems to count on the certainty that a Rank 50 Gladiator will always be less effective in all areas of gameplay than a Level 50 Paladin or Dark Knight. The proposed system can be engineered to enforce that, but should it be??

The proposed system will require considerably more development in the form of the necessary tree and point sub-systems, and will undo a good amount of what is already developed in the Armory System.

All that being said, IF Yoshida-san and his team decide to go the more restrictive Job Tree Specialization route, instead of a more creativity-fostering Advanced/Prestige Job route ... the system proposed here would be how I would want them to proceed. It is well thought out and comprehensive. Though I may oppose it in principle and philosophically for the reasons I stated above, I cannot dispute that it is a viable alternative worthy of serious and respectful consideration.

I thank you and your team for putting it forward, and patiently explaining it.

Honestly I don't like the idea of having one class tied to another. I would rather all classes be tied to different weapons. If I want to be a Dark Knight then I equip great sword, a katana for Ninja.

I know this is shameless promotion but I made a thread trying to approach this discussion from a different angle, http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-System-debate

My hope is to add to the current while keeping it Final Fantasy based. I know alot of people loved using grids and tables for customizing characters and wanted to keep it in tune to that.