Dear SE, Yoshi, etc, remove Coil lock outs. Right now.

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Originally Posted by Archulak

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Yeah, it will open the floodgates. It always does. I hate beating a dead horse, but sell carries have never been an issue on our server - we never were inundated with annoying spams every minute. I can imagine what this will do to the other servers - but you know what? I would love to see the results if Coil was unlocked for one month out of curiosity.

I think sometimes when you're denied something, you want it more because it seems "forbidden". Personally, anyways.

So now the discussion has evolved from a CT style loot lockout to a free for all lootfest where you can be geared to the teeth in 1 week so long as you have an FC/LS to carry you?

Anyone that plays mmos for a reasonable amount of time knows that there are multiple tiers of players in an mmo. You have the elites - world/server firsts that clear content and release videos and do theorycrafting. You have the raiders - those that clear content at a slower pace by following the guides written by the elites. You have the casuals - those that clear content after its been nerfed or after a long period of time. And you have the non raiders- those that have no interest in raiding whatsoever.

Every single mmo I have played up to now has content exclusive to the first two groups and they do so by way of lockout, with good reason. Even Wow, in catering to the casual playerbase, released LFR which is a total separate tier of raid but keeping the quality of loot lower than normal and heroic raids, thus still giving raiders the incentive to do harder content. What some people are suggesting in this thread (lootfest via unlimited carries) will destroy the raiding landscape in this game. I can assure you that any raider worth their salt will leave the game if such a system was implemented. Yes the casuals will be happy in the short term but raids will become virtually useless as end game content. But maybe that's what they want anyway, SE to focus on producing casual content and totally omitting any end game ones.

The best suggestion I have seen so far that solves the problem of playing with friends/FCs is locking out loot except on the very first run through that raid. So you can run coil per normal once, allowing you to roll and win loot as many times (depending on RNG), and you can run as many times thereafter with friends/FC but not winning anything on subsequent runthroughs. Can anyone explain why this idea is so bad, if the OP is honest about his intentions (and not looking for others to help them through the content?)

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

Its all cosmetic, the disparity in ilvl is whats eating at people.

Hopefully these new methods of obtaining sands/oil will help ease that pain because if it were truly were about doing the content itself you would try a little bit harder your own group and do it.

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This is where once again "trying harder" has nothing to do with it, people aren't frustrated because of a lack of skill or content difficulty being too high, many people including myself have expressed zero issue with coil difficulty.

The issue is entirely the fact that the strict lockout in it's current form is detrimental to community play, by both alienating odd numbered groups of people (See: Most FCs) and leaving no consideration for real life concerns / schedules / actually wanting to play with specific groups.

People are frustrated because the lockout works against against playing as a community.

No amount of "Git gud" is suddenly going to alter the real life work schedules, timezone differences, summer vacations, school finals, or kids soccer games that can come up and can totally throw a wrench into the dynamic of a static party.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

The best suggestion I have seen so far that solves the problem of playing with friends/FCs is locking out loot except on the very first run through that raid. So you can run coil per normal once, allowing you to roll and win loot as many times (depending on RNG), and you can run as many times thereafter with friends/FC but not winning anything on subsequent runthroughs. Can anyone explain why this idea is so bad, if the OP is honest about his intentions (and not looking for others to help them through the content?)

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Honestly i was fine with this and have said so in other threads, but the argument was always that a group would then "rush gear" on one player thus abusing the system etc etc.

My static consist of full time students, people with jobs and kids and even people from Australia. If you really wanted to do the content you can.

Just organize it like others have done instead of sitting here complaining about it.

And I doubt people in FC's who have beat SCOB would enjoy doing progression for every member, that would burn people out.

There wasnt this much complaining about lockouts with the 1st coil, whats the difference now.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

My static consist of full time students, people with jobs and kids and even people from Australia. If you really wanted to do the content you can.

Just organize it like others have done instead of sitting here complaining about it.

And I doubt people in FC's who have beat SCOB would enjoy doing progression for every member, that would burn people out.

There wasnt this much complaining about lockouts with the 1st coil, whats the difference now.

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Then don't? The people advocating for the option are the people that would, if you don't feel like doing so in your own FC nobody is forcing you to help the entire group progress.

On the other hand people ARE forced to leave others out as the situation is currently, and by your admission you weren't around when the first coil was originally out so you didn't see that yes there were quite a few people who had a problem with this.

The only reason you see more speaking up now is because the majority didn't think SE would seriously do it TWICE after the backlash the first time.

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So now the discussion has evolved from a CT style loot lockout to a free for all lootfest where you can be geared to the teeth in 1 week so long as you have an FC/LS to carry you?

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I don't think anyone is suggesting anything quite that extreme. The discussion I've been engaging in has related to how much of an impact carries would actually have. I believe it's actually very little, certainly "destroying the raiding landscape in this game" is a pretty extreme interpretation of what might happen if the lockout was eased. Also, it's important to note that a tonne of people have already left (or don't do coil) because of the detrimental nature of the lockout, it's entirely possible that the damage you speak of has already been done. Again "carry" isn't a dirty word, the best groups that I've played with in MMO's (including several years of XI endgame) have typically gone out of their way to get other members up to speed. If people are willing to help then why not, it results in a stronger group in the long run.

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The best suggestion I have seen so far that solves the problem of playing with friends/FCs is locking out loot except on the very first run through that raid. So you can run coil per normal once, allowing you to roll and win loot as many times (depending on RNG), and you can run as many times thereafter with friends/FC but not winning anything on subsequent runthroughs. Can anyone explain why this idea is so bad, if the OP is honest about his intentions (and not looking for others to help them through the content?)

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Yeah, that is probably the best compromise. I see no reason why that wouldn't be viable.

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And I doubt people in FC's who have beat SCOB would enjoy doing progression for every member, that would burn people out.

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Honestly? That's the attitude of selfish players and an FC/LS with no view for the long term. Coil encourages that though, and I'm assuming the WoW model of raiding does too, screw anyone who's not in the static.

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The only reason you see more speaking up now is because the majority didn't think SE would seriously do it TWICE after the backlash the first time.

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This. People complained loudly when first coil got released, people made alts to run multiple times in a week, people were extremely frustrated by coil rendering the armory system next to useless. The list goes on and on, they just chose to not do anything about it.

I realize that finding a static is hard, or you'd just like to help fc members but I don't think that getting rid of lockouts or changing them is the way to go. I've yet to see one suggestion on a different lock out that I feel could not be abused and speed up the rate of gear progression by about 7 - 8 times the speed we have now. Which is fine until the 'I can't believe I need a static' threads become 'I can't believe I need 8 alts' threads or 'Why do we need 16 man statics for 8 man content' or 'I have full high allagan and 1 piece of sol gear, something seems wrong'

I'm really not apposed to having challenging things to do with your fc or being able to help people, but having gear come out that much faster is something i don't think is healthy for an MMO.

My solution would be to add a practice version of all the turns that is the same as the normal ones without a lock out, but drops 0 loot, to accompany the normal version we have now. Those who want to teach can, if you want to have fun with your fc you can, sells become no more prevalent than they already are and getting gear feels like the same amount of an accomplishment because the world is not absolutely flooded with it. When the next coil comes out the practice version is removed from the duty list because the normal version now has no lockout. I really don't see any downside to adding something like that, but feel that many suggestions about removing the lockouts create problems.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

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The best suggestion I have seen so far that solves the problem of playing with friends/FCs is locking out loot except on the very first run through that raid. So you can run coil per normal once, allowing you to roll and win loot as many times (depending on RNG), and you can run as many times thereafter with friends/FC but not winning anything on subsequent runthroughs. Can anyone explain why this idea is so bad, if the OP is honest about his intentions (and not looking for others to help them through the content?)

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Yeah, that is probably the best compromise. I see no reason why that wouldn't be viable.

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It does sound like the "best" compromise on paper (I thought so too), until you realize it can be abused where a pre-made group of 7 takes one person through the Turns and that 1 person has a field day rolling on everything because no one else can. I mean yeah, there's people selling runs already, nothing new. I just, don't know if it's fair for the 1 maybe 2 new participants on a FC/LS level to get everything while the other 6 or 7 missed out on gear for the week (or had to compete with others within the group)... Would people actually start scheming to end up being "the outsider?" It's kind of hard to wrap my head around the "best" solution other than the "no loots drops if there is even one person who completed the Turn" (as warned in a message at the start).

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Originally Posted by blowfin

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And I doubt people in FC's who have beat SCOB would enjoy doing progression for every member, that would burn people out.

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Honestly? That's the attitude of selfish players and an FC/LS with no view for the long term. Coil encourages that though, and I'm assuming the WoW model of raiding does too, screw anyone who's not in the static.

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This has already happened in my FC, personally.

Statics, no, "cliques" were formed from these 1st Coil groups who ended up running the EX primals together nearly non-inclusively in their cliques simply because they were already comfortable with each other on clearing "hard" content. The rest of the FC often was left to join PF or other means of getting through EX primals because a lot of the capable members were too busy doing it amongst themselves where they were guaranteed wins each attempt; not bothering to see whether or not most "outsiders" were capable of keeping up with a "clear" group.

I guess this is just a revolving issue, will probably have the same complaints when TCOB is released.

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Originally Posted by Brainberry

I guess this is just a revolving issue, will probably have the same complaints when TCOB is released.

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If that's the case the question then will go from:

How many people are willing to speak up about this?

To

How many people are left playing to care about this?

I know doom and gloom is a recurring theme on these forums but the number of people quitting / taking extended breaks over this is rising and I'd wager if this happens a third time around people will be less likely to care and move on to something else, which judging by the amount of money being poured into this game is something I'm assuming they don't want.

straw, camel's back, etc.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

It does sound like the "best" compromise on paper (I thought so too), until you realize it can be abused where a pre-made group of 7 takes one person through the Turns and that 1 person has a field day rolling on everything because no one else can.

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True, if you run it again but can't roll, loot will hoard to the one player that isn't locked. You know what might fix that? I've said it three times in this thread and I'll keep repeating it. Lockout the class not the character. That way those 7 players will run it again for themselves because they can still loot.

Loot progression would still take the same amount of time as it takes now because you can only roll with one class once a week but you get to play again, and roll again, and best of all you get to experience it with other classes now. Most get forced to run it only as one class because that is the one they have equipped with some coil loot but playing as only one class gets extremely boring.

A train ing version would be a nice solution also.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I'm not advocating for removing difficulty. Just don't require a player to only be able to run on a specific, pre-determined time based on the last time they played the content. How does this at all affect hard core raiding?

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Don't feed the troll, or better the kid? When he is out of school and will have to work for his money or maybe work for his family too, then the point will be there he will understand what we are talking about. Actually he doesn't understand the point of this thread and don't recognize that he is looking from the wrong view.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Honestly? That's the attitude of selfish players and an FC/LS with no view for the long term.

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Not to be rude to you - been reading what you've posted on forums and I think you are a decent chap. But that sentence is a little bit idealistic thou. Most, like literally 90% of the people wouldn't really want to wipe all over again. And I think it is fairly understandable - I mean there's so much more contents to grind and stuff and we don't have unlimited time, plus we play games for personal entertainment mostly. With all these in mind it is only natural that people does not enjoy going backwards.

Whilst I have seen a couple of non-hardcore FCs does nice things like learning runs on a weekly basis, it can only do so much. For a not-so-fast learner, that 2-hr learning run on Titan EX might not be enough to train him/her for a clear. I would say it would be his/her onus to follow up on what was learnt during the training by going into PF and practice further and aim for a clear. I think that should be the way forward, to prevent cultivating a mentality that FC = Free Carry.

Most FCs I've met have pretty nice people who doesn't mind showing you around a little. But if you are hoping for your FC to show you all the way to a clear, I think that's a little rare and difficult to ask for. Most people will not be fond of FC = Free Carry either.

Ultimately we must set our expectations right. At the end of the day this is just a game - and people will only feel the entertainment/enjoyment value when they fulfill their personal goals/wants for the game (and that's why some people left). Some people wants gears and loots, some people want progression, some people wants to be just social. That's why you have hardcore, progression minded FCs/LSs, and on the other hand you have some large FCs that welcomes everyone and doesn't mind hosting training runs/lessons for the newcomers (maybe yours is one of them? :) ). People hang around with players of the same mind so that they can achieve the same wants and goals together - it's just natural human behavior.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

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I don't think he was asking for carries or the content to be made easier?

If I can summarize the views and opinions, I read them as unlocking it so you can have the freedom and accessibility to tackle endgame content with whoever you want - instead of being paired with the same group - which is awesome (I run with friends 99% of the time now) - but the liability or "stigma" of a static also means that if/when a member drops completely or is absent for a longer period of time, the group then have to head-hunt a "reliable" PUG member (which, from what I read could be hard sometimes due to the restrictions of the lockout in finding the right member who is on the same turn and has successfully cleared that turn).

Therefore the majority of the night is just spent recruiting....instead of actually doing the run and progressing (and mama-mia help you if the PUG[s] end up lying).

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Originally Posted by PrimeEvilPanda

I don't think he was asking for carries or the content to be made easier?

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Nope, blowfin wasn't. He was replying to the below quote which he thinks that these FCs/LSs are pretty selfish about it, which I'm just stating my own opinion/another side of the story.

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And I doubt people in FC's who have beat SCOB would enjoy doing progression for every member, that would burn people out.

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