I don't understand...

So what I've got from recent posts: Don't tell people what they're doing wrong because that's elitist. I guess I'll just kick 'em then. Wouldn't want to be labeled as an elitist ;)

My god, the string analogies are getting out of hand, people! They don't even make sense; no one speaks like that. Lol.


Carry on. /Popcorn

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

So the issue being you couldn't adjust to his rotation, not surprised..

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If a tank pulls an AOE group by using Flash only once (which seems to be Songi is saying) and then doing 1-2-3 on the primary kill target only, there is no working around that. A single cure will send all of the other targets running straight for the healer. You can "work around" certain things, but if a tank isn't incurring enmity on all targets in an AOE pull, there's nothing to "work around." Your two options in that situation are to either offer the tank polite advice (such as to use Flash much more liberally), or wipe repeatedly until you all give up out of frustration.

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Originally Posted by Keres

snip..

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It is unclear how many flashes were used and when first of all. Additionally a CNJ/WHM has repose for Stone Vigil a level 41 dungeon and the mobs can all be put to sleep on that one, except the triple aevis before the final boss.

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Originally Posted by Cap75

So what I've got from recent posts: Don't tell people what they're doing wrong because that's elitist. I guess I'll just kick 'em then. Wouldn't want to be labeled as an elitist ;)

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Why is it so hard to go slower an accomodate them instead of berating them or kicking them? Why make demands of those who may or may not have the ability at that time to meet your higher expectations (even if the expectations are that high)? If it is easy make an adjustment on your side why not do it?

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Originally Posted by Cap75

So what I've got from recent posts: Don't tell people what they're doing wrong because that's elitist. I guess I'll just kick 'em then. Wouldn't want to be labeled as an elitist ;)

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One of the best replies I've ever seen in these types of threads was something along the lines of "Telling people how to play is elitist, kicking them is elitist, leaving is elitist. Only if you remain silent and wipe for all eternity will you not be considered elitist." Lol. I've since lost the quote, though :(

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Originally Posted by Foo01

It is unclear how many flashes were used and when first of all. Additionally a CNJ/WHM has repose for Stone Vigil a level 41 dungeon and the mobs can all be put to sleep on that one, except the triple aevis before the final boss.

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Songi's original post is pretty clearly-worded to indicate that the tank was, to quote:

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using flash to pull and never using more than his 1-2-3 aggro chain on a single target in a group pull

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Secondly, Sleep/Repose isn't really an excuse to not keep using Flash once in a while, because 1) Sleep can get broken by accident from time to time, and 2) when the Sleep breaks (either by accident or simply because the timer ran out), as the tank you're still going to want to be sure that you have hate on those targets. Using Flash is an easy (and non-sleep-breaking) way to do that.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

It is unclear how many flashes were used and when first of all. Additionally a CNJ/WHM has repose for Stone Vigil a level 41 dungeon and the mobs can all be put to sleep on that one, except the triple aevis before the final boss.

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You are still missing it. Even if you CAN sleep the mobs, that doesn't make enmity go away. The healer will still build up enmity and as soon as the sleep breaks, it will beeline for the healer. Unless of course the tank is generating proper aoe enmity. Secondly, there's more Aevis in the whole dungeon, that particular pull is just the most damaging, ie the most healing required.

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Originally Posted by Keres

Songi's original post is pretty clearly-worded to indicate that the tank was...

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Clearly worded but not from the side of the tank who can't possibly tell us what had happened. 1 flash 2 flash someone could miss one when they were looking away etc. I wouldn't make the call unless there is more solid information. It is easy to bash on someone else who it not present.

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Originally Posted by ispano

.... Even if you CAN sleep the mobs, that doesn't make enmity go away. The healer will still build up enmity and as soon as the sleep breaks, it will beeline for the healer. ...

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If you are down to single target, the tank won't need much healing and the healer can DPS with the dps bring down the mobs one at time. By the time it wakes up the tank would already had done the ROH combo on it an secured it. I've dozed off doing things this way on Stone Vigil before, but the dungeon still got cleared and there was no drama or bad feelings.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

Why is it so hard to go slower an accomodate them instead of berating them or kicking them? Why make demands of those who may or may not have the ability at that time to meet your higher expectations (even if the expectations are that high)? If it is easy make an adjustment on your side why not do it?

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Why is it so hard for a level 42 tank to hold hate? And telling someone a better way to do something doesn't equal berating them. If they take it that way they best give up tanking cause they don't have thick enough skin for it.

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Originally Posted by Cap75

Why is it so hard for a level 42 tank to hold hate? And telling someone a better way to do something doesn't equal berating them. If they take it that way they best give up tanking cause they don't have thick enough skin for it.

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Telling them a better way is not berating, but you run the risk of it being received that way and it has happened to turn out that way. Doesn't mean it is always that way. And if they give up tanking, or give up the game, is that really good for everyone? Maybe they just need more reps at it and figure it out. Learn by doing. Takes time, takes patience, so it naturally has to go slower.

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Originally Posted by Keres

If a tank pulls an AOE group by using Flash only once (which seems to be Songi is saying) and then doing 1-2-3 on the primary kill target only, there is no working around that. A single cure will send all of the other targets running straight for the healer. You can "work around" certain things, but if a tank isn't incurring enmity on all targets in an AOE pull, there's nothing to "work around." Your two options in that situation are to either offer the tank polite advice (such as to use Flash much more liberally), or wipe repeatedly until you all give up out of frustration.

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I had tanks do that as I was healing on my WHM, not so hard to fluid aura, sleep, save swiftcast for stoneskin, clutch heal/cc, or last hit damage and get it done with, use regen and small heals. If worse comes to worse I'd just kite tank the other adds while dpsing and healing.

Instead of sitting there doing nothing but whine hoping for the issue to magically resolve itself. God forbid the existence of ingenuity and situational awareness.

The expectations people have now compared to when MMO's first started is pretty hilarious. Duty Finder is not Major League Gaming and portions of the community take it to the comic book guy extremes by going to town on someone because they can't do what you believe should be standard which is elitist no matter how you want to spin it. You can go on and claim you're giving advice but you are not since you are only typing because it was an inconvenience.

Players want hard content and it has become the norm in MMO's now. Yet to whine when you have to deal with bad players because content now requires a certain threshold of effort is pretty pointless and it's the reason why a small percentage ever ends up downing end game content. Instead of whining and doing nothing why don't you follow that "advice" and put effort into being better and handling the situation on your own instead of relying on others you obviously can't rely on? Since you already claim to be so well versed in the mechanics of the game. How about effort into forming your own groups if the idea of being paired with bads ails you? Two things which ainn't happening and all I see is people venting and making sob stories.

The venting I get but you can resolve it faster than trying to give bads advice at all. The sob stories however aren't needed and are pointless since using DF equates to being paired up with strangers that will lead to an array of skill levels ranging from bad, on horrible internet to good and geared.

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Originally Posted by Priya

One of the best replies I've ever seen in these types of threads was something along the lines of "Telling people how to play is elitist, kicking them is elitist, leaving is elitist. Only if you remain silent and wipe for all eternity will you not be considered elitist." Lol. I've since lost the quote, though :(

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That's the moral some of the more extreme people here would have you believe.

God forbid we want to help people. God forbid we be good caring people. God forbid we build a community on the basis of helping others. God forbid we act in a moderate manner that matches more real life situations more than extreme positions and examples consistently provided in this thread.

As this thread continues that's all that will keep being said. Shut up and deal with it or your being too "elite." Those of us who are more realistic and just want to help will be pounded on for being elitists. In an mmo it's apparently impossible to help people without being labeled an elitist. That's the story being told here, and it's pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

That's the moral some of the more extreme people here would have you believe. ...
... Those of us who are more realistic and just want to help will be pounded on for being elitists. In an mmo it's apparently impossible to help people without being labeled an elitist. That's the story being told here, and it's pathetic.

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I've been helped by plenty of players and I've helped plenty of players. I the only problems I have on a regular basis (three times a week) are elitist speed runner trying to for speed runs on people that are not ready, whatever the dungeon. There are many ways to help other players, but the one thing that can help most to reset the expectation so that people understand that speed running is a nice bonus but not a must have. This way it can be more relaxed and people will have less drama. And there will be no need to nitpick over other people rotations and such.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

That's the moral some of the more extreme people here would have you believe.

God forbid we want to help people. God forbid we be good caring people. God forbid we build a community on the basis of helping others. God forbid we act in a moderate manner that matches more real life situations more than extreme positions and examples consistently provided in this thread.

As this thread continues that's all that will keep being said. Shut up and deal with it or your being too "elite." Those of us who are more realistic and just want to help will be pounded on for being elitists. In an mmo it's apparently impossible to help people without being labeled an elitist. That's the story being told here, and it's pathetic.

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Agreed, this you can't ever give advice kick the militant casuals are on is disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Kerberon

Agreed, this you can't ever give advice kick the militant casuals are on is disgusting.

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When pigs fly then maybe your militant casual can be found at the end of the rainbow. There are not militant casuals see:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...49#post2164549

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Originally Posted by Foo01

I've been helped by plenty of people and I've helped plenty of players. I the only problems I have on a regular basis (three times a week) are elitist speed runner trying to for speed runs on people that are not ready, whatever the dungeon. There are many ways to help other players, but the one thing that can help most to reset the expectation so that people understand that speed running is a nice bonus but not a must have. This way it can be more relaxed and people will have less drama. And there will be no need to nitpick over other people rotations and such.

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At what point in this ENTIRE thread did I EVER act like I was forcing speed runs on people? At what point have I EVER acted that way? Please. Illustrate for me. For as far as I can tell all I've asked for in this entire thread was moderation from BOTH sides. Yet here you are. Constantly assuming I'm trying to force speed runs or something. Can you not accept for five seconds that I'm NOT talking about some a-hole player trying to force a speed run? Can you try to accept my words for what I'm actually saying instead of coloring it with your assumptions of who I am and what I do?

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Maybe one day when they allow you to punch through the internet you can get your point across to all those bad playing the game by force who are hurting you since you wont do anything productive from your end outside of barking orders.

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This is a good illustration of the problem with this thread. Despite actually giving an example earlier in this thread of a way to give advice while being respectful the assumption is still that we are "barking" orders. Words that we say don't get through because they instantly become colored with biased assumptions. "When they said "tips" they must mean they are just shouting at that player." It's these kinds of assumptions that make this entire conversation break down. There is no middle ground. No possible way to do it better and kinder. None at all. Anything AT ALL is too much.

These kind of responses leave ZERO room for any discussion because to these people it's their way or the high way. You can't possibly have an argument or a better way because if it isn't their way your too elite and just barking orders.

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Originally Posted by Kerberon

Agreed, this you can't ever give advice kick the militant casuals are on is disgusting.

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The irony is that you can't take advice either.

Maybe one day when they allow you to punch through the internet you can get your point across to all those bad playing the game by force who are hurting you since you wont do anything productive from your end outside of barking orders.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

At what point in this ENTIRE thread did I EVER act like I was forcing speed runs on people? At what point have I EVER acted that way?

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I never said you were. But we got stuff like "militan casuals" What? They don't want to do speed runs, they can't do speed runs and they are upset about it so they are militant casuals? So stuff like this is clearly irresponsible:

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Originally Posted by Priya

.... "Telling people how to play is elitist, kicking them is elitist, leaving is elitist. Only if you remain silent and wipe for all eternity will you not be considered elitist." ....(

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People rage quitting (a.k.a leave) because other can not speed run is elitist. People kicking the lesser geared because they can't speed run is elitist. And no one demands that people forever remain silent, just don't go off berating others because they are inexperienced or undergeared.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

I never said you were. But we got stuff like "militan casuals" What? They don't want to do speed runs, they can't do speed runs and they are upset about it so they are militant casuals? So stuff like this is clearly irresponsible:



People rage quitting (a.k.a leave) because other can not speed run is elitist. People kicking the lesser geared because they can speed run is elitist. And no one demands that people forever remain silent, just don't go off berating others because they are inexperienced or undergeared.

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and for that we are in complete agreement. The problem is you won't even come to a moderate center and agree that it's even possible to help people in a nice way. At all. It's your way or nothing at all. Help people through wiping or shut your mouth. That's all I keep hearing from you.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

Telling them a better way is not berating, but you run the risk of it being received that way and it has happened to turn out that way. Doesn't mean it is always that way. And if they give up tanking, or give up the game, is that really good for everyone? Maybe they just need more reps at it and figure it out. Learn by doing. Takes time, takes patience, so it naturally has to go slower.

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By SV how many dungeons must this tank have done? If they don't have the most basic aspect of being a tank down by that point then I would say giving up tanking is indeed good for everyone. Not everyone is cut out to tank.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

snip

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Would be easier if elitists realized the angle they are using to approach the issue of giving advice isn't working and should try approaching it from a different angle or perspective.

Taking Counseling Skills 101 or anything of the sort that would help as well.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

I never said you were. But we got stuff like "militan casuals" What? They don't want to do speed runs, they can't do speed runs and they are upset about it so they are militant casuals? .

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You twist things like a politician. I encourage you to run for office. Militantly casual has nothing to do with speed running. It has everything to do with you and Gormogon think that polite advice is elitist raging. You are the militant casual and it has nothing to do with speed running or speed of anything. Sorry get over yourself.

Oh and gormogon, I don't take your advice because doing something harmful is not good advice. Sorry but your advice will only speed the demise of this game, or any game.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

and for that we are in complete agreement. The problem is you won't even come to a moderate center and agree that it's even possible to help people in a nice way. At all. It's your way or nothing at all. Help people through wiping or shut your mouth. That's all I keep hearing from you.

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How about this?. There exist nice ways to give advice, but it won't work all the time and it will only be received as nice only some of the time. I know of no surefire way to make advice seem nice all the time to everyone. It is a case by case situation. And I will even grant there exist a solution to give advice and it be well received 100% of the time, but no one has found it yet.

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Originally Posted by Cap75

By SV how many dungeons must this tank have done? If they don't have the most basic aspect of being a tank down by that point then I would say giving up tanking is indeed good for everyone. Not everyone is cut out to tank.

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Theorectically speaking, if this is someone's alt it could be literally 0. But say they did every dungeon up to SV once, that is like 8 dungeons at most (sastasha, tam-tara, copperbell, halatali, totorak, haukke, brayflox, cutters, and qarn right? I must be missing a few..) So it is no surprise they are as green as they get.

And we all know how people are bored of sastasha, tam-tara, toto-rak on the DR and avoid cutters and qarn, so if it is an alt, it might be like 4 dungeons?

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Would be easier if elitists realized the angle they are using to approach to the issue of giving advice isn't working and should try approaching it from a different angle or perspective.

Not like people are taking Counseling Skills 101 or anything of the sort that would help.

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What angle are you even letting people have when your entire point is "any advice is bad. Just shut up and finish the dungeon." You leave no angles open at all. You're entire position is dismissive of other peoples thoughts and opinions on the matter.

My perspective is simple. Saying nothing is just as destructive as being mean about it.


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

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Originally Posted by Kerberon

polite advice

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We obviously don't share the same definition of polite.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

How about this. there exist nice ways to give advice, but it won't work all the time and it will only be received as nice only some of the time. I know of no surefire way to make advice seem nice all the time to everyone. It is a case by case situation.

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Absolutely. I completely agree it won't work all of the time. Sometimes people just refuse assistance and you need to move on or find new methods. That doesn't mean never trying is the correct route either. That's why I said you've already admitted defeat earlier. You can't let it get you down so far that you only want to use indirect methods instead of words. I'll completely admit that those methods can achieve results, and honestly talking AND doing that is probably the best combination. I'll do accept that you understand what I'm trying to say though.

There is indeed no silver bullet, but ruling out options just because they can fail is just letting yourself be backed into a corner with fewer options. I can't stand the idea that not talking to people is the only solution that's ok. This is an MMO. This is a community. Let's talk to each other and help each other out.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

We obviously don't share the same definition of polite.

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I dunno. Let's try a dictionary instead of coming up with our own. Polite

po·lite adjective \pə-ˈlīt\
: having or showing good manners or respect for other people

: socially correct or proper
po·lit·erpo·lit·est

Full Definition of POLITE

1
a : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of advanced culture
b : marked by refined cultural interests and pursuits especially in arts and belles lettres
2
a : showing or characterized by correct social usage
b : marked by an appearance of consideration, tact, deference, or courtesy
c : marked by a lack of roughness or crudities <polite literature>



Yeah, pretty much what I expected.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

People rage quitting (a.k.a leave) because other can not speed run is elitist. People kicking the lesser geared because they can speed run is elitist. And no one demands that people forever remain silent, just don't go off berating others because they are inexperienced or undergeared.

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You are a fantastic troll. Beautiful. :) /Tips fedora

Quick edit, Gorm is an amazing one, too. I like your work, sir. Hard to edit in a quote on phone, but counseling skills class is fabulous. :)

Cap75...what server are u on? I'm looking for a solid PS4 community...when I say "solid" I mean ppl that actually play and communicate lol

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Originally Posted by Darkwizud

Cap75...what server are u on? I'm looking for a solid PS4 community...when I say "solid" I mean ppl that actually play and communicate lol

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He might get mad at you asking such a simple question, because you should be able to see that he is on Behemoth from his profile picture. There are elitist standards that must be upheld you know.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

Theorectically speaking, if this is someone's alt it could be literally 0. But say they did every dungeon up to SV once, that is like 8 dungeons at most (sastasha, tam-tara, totorak, haukke, brayflox, cutters, and qarn right? I must be missing a few..) So it no surprise they are as green as they get.

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So that's 8 dungeons minimum where they couldn't do their job? SV is no different than any dungeon before it as far as holding aggro. That's way more than enough time to learn thier basic function in the party. That also means they subjected 24 other people to thier play. People who I'm sure must have said something at points. Meaning this tank has likely ignored any advice to this point anyway.

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Originally Posted by Cap75

So that's 8 dungeons minimum where they couldn't do their job?.... That also means they subjected 24 other people to thier play. People who I'm sure must have said something at points. Meaning this tank has likely ignored any advice to this point anyway.

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You don't have to do all that much for stuff before brayflox. Losing aggro all the time in dungeons before brayflox hardly ever led to a wipe. And even if other players complained, the tank could just muddle thru. Brayflox is the first real test. I know because I had to figure this out:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...r-geared-tanks

And even then it was more about surviving than aggro managment. As a GLA/PLD it is very hard to tell if you are handling aggro right or not, because it always seemed like you would lose aggro to level synced DPS before you get shield oath at level 40. See:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...arning-to-Tank

And even now with iLevel81 PLD, I still have aggro problems with bard and blms with top level gear. They will still peel stuff off at times:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rol-your-aggro

I had to learn to deal with all of this stuff, and I sought out advice. But you can't expect everyone to do that.

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Originally Posted by Darkwizud

Cap75...what server are u on? I'm looking for a solid PS4 community...when I say "solid" I mean ppl that actually play and communicate lol

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I can't tell you how many people actually play on PS4 on Behemoth but my FC is PS4 only for the sole reason of ease of communication. Party chat makes things much easier.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

And even then it was more about surviving than aggro managment. As a GLA/PLD it is very hard to tell if you are handling aggro right or not, because it always seemed like you would lose aggro to level synced DPS before you get shield oath at level 50. See:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...arning-to-Tank

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You get SO at 40. You have it in SV. And being a tank is always about aggro management. I don't care what your level is.

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Originally Posted by Cap75

You get SO at 40. You have it in SV. And being a tank is always about aggro management. I don't care what your level is.

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Yup that's why you mark, then as a pld, flash a lot. shield lob/flash x2 or 3 depending/fb>sb>roh/flash/fb>rb/flash/fb>sb>roh/repeat never had problems except when someone went crazy on a 2 or 3 target with single target attacks. That was without shield oath, shield oath has just made things so much easier. It takes a bit to get used to how much you need to flash with aoe heavy groups compared to the skill sets in other games but by SV you should definitely have it down. I have marking assigned to the extra buttons on my mouse so that the marks go up in half a second or so before the pull.

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Originally Posted by Cap75

You get SO at 40. You have it in SV. And being a tank is always about aggro management. I don't care what your level is.

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Yes typo, shield oath at 40. No it is not always about aggro management when you can not take the hits. There is no aggro to manage when there is no tank alive to manage it.

I've even had SMN put up topaz/titan to help and/or have the tank heal tank sometimes just to survive stuff. There are many ways to solve the problems. There is no specific narrow path that you need to follow like "always about aggro managemnet" or "always maximize dps" etc. This is not the elitist way, but this allows players to play together and get along and make things work.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

I had tanks do that as I was healing on my WHM, not so hard to fluid aura, sleep, save swiftcast for stoneskin, clutch heal/cc, or last hit damage and get it done with, use regen and small heals. If worse comes to worse I'd just kite tank the other adds while dpsing and healing.

Instead of sitting there doing nothing but whine hoping for the issue to magically resolve itself. God forbid the existence of ingenuity and situational awareness.

The expectations people have now compared to when MMO's first started is pretty hilarious. Duty Finder is not Major League Gaming and portions of the community take it to the comic book guy extremes by going to town on someone because they can't do what you believe should be standard which is elitist no matter how you want to spin it.

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Tanking poorly and letting your team members die (or having them be forced to pick up your slack) is frustrating when you're the tank. I get mad at myself whenever I mess up tanking and someone else dies because of it, or worse, the whole group wipes. For all you know, that tank wishes they could be doing better when they see monsters going off and attacking the healer; it's entirely possible that they simply don't know why and are too shy to ask for help due to fear of someone yelling at them. I've seen it happen before, heck, I've even been there a few times in various games.

Politeness and humbleness is something that should go both ways, and it's entirely possible to give friendly advice without coming across as a jerk. The fact that you don't seem to believe it's possible is a little confusing, honestly.

Not just a few days ago, I politely told a co-tank in Garuda (as close to exact wording as I can recall) "hey, in case you didn't know about it, you can step through her to avoid the Slipstreams. It can save a lot of damage. :)" and he was grateful for the information. In fact, if someone gets offended and cries elitism at that particular line of text, I'm going to state that they're being unreasonable. I can understand not accepting abusive or rude behavior, but it is entirely possible to give friendly/helpful advice, framed in a nonthreatening way. This is not a black-and-white issue.

It seems like you've just set up this straw-man version of an "elitist player" for yourself, and whenever anyone in this thread responds to you, you respond to your strawman rather than the (seemingly reasonable) people who are actually trying to share their point of view. If you're interested in fostering a constructive discussion, this isn't the best way to go about it.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

Yes typo, shield oath at 40. No it is not always about aggro management when you can not take the hits. There is no aggro to manage when there is no tank alive to manage it.

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If you can't take the hits one of the following things is happening:
1. You're under geared for the content your doing.
2. You don't know how to use your cool downs.
3. You're making bad pulls.
4. Your healer isn't healing you.

Point 4 is only one that's not in your control. The rest are decidedly your own fault. And if someone gets bent out of shape when a more experienced player comments on 1-3 then tanking is probably not for them.

PS and by comment obviously I mean give advice, not berate.

I joined a party finder for Garuda as a tank and pulled , they didn't wait for me to use my combo 5 times before attacking and so they pulled and died. Ha serves those elitists right, then they had the audacity to say mean things to me like I forgot my shield, please I know how to play my class so I told them all to shove it. By the way what is shield oath?

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Originally Posted by Cap75

If you can't take the hits one of the following things is happening:
...

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What can you do when they are undergeared then? Vote abandon? Sometimes that is the only option. But often the group can work around it. The cool downs can only handle so much and then they are on cool down. Bad pulls, I don't know how you can repeated do bad pulls on stuff like SV or less. If there are no speed runners the pulls are always the smallest allowed. The tank does need any more pressure from the peanut gallery. I'd rather have the group find a working solutions then try to dictate or order around the tank that is already under duress.

You can run ur rotation without even trying. Its gotten to the point where I watch TV and still throw out shadowflare, the trifecta, contagion, bane etc. . If u r not doing that, u may not know what ur doin. Cuz, most ppl are tome grinding and hav dine it a gazillion x.