ARR often feels very contradictory in its design (long)

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Originally Posted by Vandark

It's sOoooooooooooooooooooo True and it's all Soooooooooooooooooo Bad.

Funny story the last 14 didn't have these problems LOL

SE just went from a great game that just lacked content and had many technical problems but the actual game it'self was fine to me, everything in the old game worked and made perfect sense in the world and everything had a purpose.

to ARR, a game that has way too many game breaking flaws for my liking and almost all the things the game offers have no real purpose or use to them.

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The last 14 had a host of other problems, like gear not mattering at all, or newly-introduced endgame gear being worse than gear that's flooding the markets.

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Originally Posted by Magis

PVP looks like an after thought to be honest. "All the other MMOs have it, so we should too!".

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Well it was their reason for throwing out all the effort they put into refining 1.0's combat (which i think was getting good). Yoshi is also a huge fan of PVP as he has said and mentioned games like dark age of camelot being something he has spent a lot of time with.

Of course im betting when the higher ups had their way they made him go the route it is now. He talks to the guys at blizzard and such and now the game feels like a lot of those. Its pretty obvious he probably has less control than he would like (or had to push out something WoW-esq to sell boxes at the start to satisfy investors) Honestly the game could and probably should have waited another 3+ months just to pack on more endgame in perticular, but im guessing the big guys up stairs had a deadline for him.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

The last 14 had a host of other problems, like gear not mattering at all, or newly-introduced endgame gear being worse than gear that's flooding the markets.

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actually gear mattered more in the last 14 than this one cause Crafting was useful.and the new gear being useless is more of AARs problem cause look at CTs gear vs Coils, and the fact that alot of BiS is myth gear for some jobs.

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Originally Posted by Zanfire

Well it was their reason for throwing out all the effort they put into refining 1.0's combat (which i think was getting good). Yoshi is also a huge fan of PVP as he has said and mentioned games like dark age of camelot being something he has spent a lot of time with.

Of course im betting when the higher ups had their way they made him go the route it is now. He talks to the guys at blizzard and such and now the game feels like a lot of those. Its pretty obvious he probably has less control than he would like (or had to push out something WoW-esq to sell boxes at the start to satisfy investors) Honestly the game could and probably should have waited another 3+ months just to pack on more endgame in perticular, but im guessing the big guys up stairs had a deadline for him.

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Yet they built the game on shoddy netcode where people have trouble doing primals due to lag, let alone pvp.

It's weird how they would change the core system to the MMO, for such a minor feature in this game. Heck, I doubt many people care about PVP in a Final Fantasy game, where the story is usually what is most important.

Warcraft and Warhammer I understand since the whole shtick is factions battling each other.

Soooo a buncha angry nerds ruined this thread by: trying to rally people to unsub, arguing amongst themselves, saying WoW this and WoW that, saying the game is dying, etc etc etc. This was supposed to be a CONSTRUCTIVE thread. To whoever talked about these forums dying, they are, there's nothing good here. Go on the FFXIV reddit and there's 10 "just started playing" threads" a day. Even this thread, when it came out, was discussed in an actual MATURE manner. Honestly, to all the people who just hate constantly..it seems like you guys just gotta move on. Most of you have been around since 1.x and I just think you'll never be satisfied, I really don't know what to tell you all..I think it has just been too long.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

actually gear mattered more in the last 14 than this one cause Crafting was useful.and the new gear being useless is more of AARs problem cause look at CTs gear vs Coils, and the fact that alot of BiS is myth gear for some jobs.

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Bikini runs of 8-man Ifrit. Reindeer runs of Moggle Mog. Dzaemel Darkhold gear being worse than crafted Uraeus gear (but it didn't matter because bikini runs).

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Bikini runs of 8-man Ifrit. Reindeer runs of Moggle Mog. Dzaemel Darkhold gear being worse than crafted Uraeus gear (but it didn't matter because bikini runs).

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Yes we had this in 1.23 no doubt but we have White Mage Tanks Titan HM now, i am sure its possible to do Bikini runs in ifrit HM too well i dont see any difference at all between 1.23 and ARR in this case.

in 1.23 the 3-5er Meldet Gear was probably the best Items, even some DL pieces wasnt that good at all. Its right that crafted Gear shouldnt be the BiS but whats wrong with let crafters be a part of the Best Endgame Gear like the Abjuration System in XI?

in 1.23 Gear worth something, without a certain Gear your Team was unable to do Speed runs in CC or AV to collect the DL pieces (Bodys) or doin the 13 mins Speed runs for your Relic Items.

I think we, this day, should atleast be happy that the best gear is not crafted. Because then no one except the persons who have full craft 50 would own them. Because no one spends a single gil on anything anymore.

People would pay, in fact they did befor (Vanya for ex.)

The problem is "only" how to distribute the materials correct. Gatherers and adventurers shall have the possibility to get the materials.

I agree 100% with the original post! I was saying the other day to someone in a linkshell that I thought 1.0 nearly had more potential than 2.0. I am hoping that the reason for this is that Yoshi wanted to get everyone on the same playing field so level is stupidly fast and there isn't a lot of threat. So that the first expansion would really be the start of the game! But I remember thinking the same thing in alpha for 2.0 and it didnt happen so I'm a little hesitant.

I'm not a big fan of the instance everything. And even less of a fan of the 4 man content instead of 8! I truly hope that they have something big planned for around the corner but i'm getting to the stage where I'm running out of breath to hold!

My own opinion! I'm thrilled if other people like it and i'm in a minority!

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Originally Posted by Arkune

Yes we had this in 1.23 no doubt but we have White Mage Tanks Titan HM now, i am sure its possible to do Bikini runs in ifrit HM too well i dont see any difference at all between 1.23 and ARR in this case.

in 1.23 the 3-5er Meldet Gear was probably the best Items, even some DL pieces wasnt that good at all. Its right that crafted Gear shouldnt be the BiS but whats wrong with let crafters be a part of the Best Endgame Gear like the Abjuration System in XI?

in 1.23 Gear worth something, without a certain Gear your Team was unable to do Speed runs in CC or AV to collect the DL pieces (Bodys) or doin the 13 mins Speed runs for your Relic Items.

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I was strictly talking up to ~1.19, when I stopped playing. When the only speedruns were of DD, which was pointless because the gear that dropped in DD was out-done by HQ crafted items even with 0 materia in them.

Also, I don't think it's right that none of the best in slot is crafted. That's the best way to make crafters part of the endgame. More on that in a second.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

I think we, this day, should atleast be happy that the best gear is not crafted. Because then no one except the persons who have full craft 50 would own them. Because no one spends a single gil on anything anymore.

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I won't be thankful for this. As much as I may not want to level another craft myself, I'd much rather that crafters actually be useful for something other than helping other crafters. It *is* entirely possible to make the best gear crafted without making raiding pointless, and it doesn't even take much imagination to do so.

The more I hear about the combat in the original, the more I wish I had the chance to experience it for myself. I hear so much (mainly) positive things about it that I'd like to see it integrated into what we have now somehow.

Slim chance of that happening, though.

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Originally Posted by Jubez187

Soooo a buncha angry nerds ruined this thread by: trying to rally people to unsub, arguing amongst themselves, saying WoW this and WoW that, saying the game is dying, etc etc etc. This was supposed to be a CONSTRUCTIVE thread. To whoever talked about these forums dying, they are, there's nothing good here. Go on the FFXIV reddit and there's 10 "just started playing" threads" a day. Even this thread, when it came out, was discussed in an actual MATURE manner. Honestly, to all the people who just hate constantly..it seems like you guys just gotta move on. Most of you have been around since 1.x and I just think you'll never be satisfied, I really don't know what to tell you all..I think it has just been too long.

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Please don't point the community as a whole to the sub reddit. Let them stay here and bicker with eachother.

^ Ven - the combat in 1.0 was great, a lot better than it is now. Now it's just a button masher, whereas the combat at least had a little thought involved in 1.0. I really wish we could go back to it, not every move was a special and super flashy.

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Originally Posted by Nadrojj

Now it's just a button masher, whereas the combat at least had a little thought involved in 1.0

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrZUUmiPtXo

/doze

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Originally Posted by Dhex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrZUUmiPtXo

/doze

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It may have been slower for sure, more of a sped up FFXI with more reactionary skills, but it doesnt change the fact that what we have now is just a rotation spam fest. In my eye's it's no better, just looks "cooler" when you show people in videos. The combat we have now is what most MMOs have so im sure its not all that impressive to people who have played just about any MMO post-WoW.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrZUUmiPtXo

/doze

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Might be a sarcastic post, but makes me sad that if we had a similar fight in 2.0, it would be on a regular circular arena like Coil/trials, and we'd do our rotation on the meteorite while dodging instant-kill lasers of doom. Then we'd move to Nael, do our rotation on him, of course while dodging explosions (that blocks your view of the lasers of doom). Then a marker would appear on someone's head, and they have to move to x place (while dodging lasers) or they explode and wipe the group. Then another mark would appear on someone else, and they would have to move to Nael (while dodging lasers), or they explode and wipe the group. At the end Nael would do a super move, you'd need to do your rotation even harder or else he will explode and wipe the group. Super cool.

I thought the 1.0 AOE mechanic was pretty sweet. Every spell could be AOE or single target with the click of a button.

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Originally Posted by Zanfire

Yah thinks like that "we would like to see NM's back" thread. That thing had over 3,000 likes and was over 300 pages long...and all we got was "no, we dont like people competing"....which i found F'n hilarious since they changed 1.2x's combat purely for the sake of making it viable for PvP, which we now have....so whats all this about anti-competition? If i find the thread il edit it into here.

Edit: nvm, we wont ever see that among a few others since they cleared a lot of the older posts out.

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You know what else I noticed they cleared out, all evidence of the old games exsistance.
I can't even find the old soundtrack on you tube anymore, lol probably because the old soundtrack was a billion times better and they don't want people to know.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

The last 14 had a host of other problems, like gear not mattering at all, or newly-introduced endgame gear being worse than gear that's flooding the markets.

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Crafting needed a use and it was extremely hard to craft gear that good, I preferred it because it was just as hard if not harder to afford gear like that or craft it than the end game was anyways. I didn't see that as a problem I actually thought it made alot more sense when compared to what we have now. The final sets of end game gear Dark Light was no easy accomplishment ether, both styles of achieving a good end game set were challenging and it was nice to have options. You know not everyone likes doing dungeons all the fkn time.

Crafting classes now have close to no use or purpose and end game gear is so easy now that there isn't even anything in the game worth being proud of.

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Originally Posted by Vandark

You know what else I noticed they cleared out, all evidence of the old games exsistance.
I can't even find the old soundtrack on you tube anymore, lol probably because the old soundtrack was a billion times better and they don't want people to know.

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Look up Before Meteor. They probably killed off any vids to make money off the songs.

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/doze

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I feel like this sums up my experience with 2.0

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Originally Posted by Magis

Look up Before Meteor. They probably killed off any vids to make money off the songs.

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Wow.... just wow... money hungry as always, nice one SE.... Couldn't put the nice songs in your game though huh? Great job...

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Originally Posted by Vandark

Wow.... just wow... money hungry as always, nice one SE.... Couldn't put the nice songs in your game though huh? Great job...

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Not like every company everywhere does that. Nope, must just be SE. >_>

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

.
...You can avoid this by leveling alts, but then you'll still have to pool 31 or more levels into other classes in order to maximize the potential of the main class. Certainly, no one would want to gather 4050 mythology per week, but the armory system and raid lockouts are not separate issues. Anything that applies to multiple classes due to FFXIV's all-in-one armory system where it otherwise would not is thereby related. That's not to say that FFXIV gimps one's potential to level multiple classes generally. It is only the specific system they give that does so, and avoiding it, if one has the time, becomes the superior choice. "Here's your unique system. By the way, you won't be able to collect more that 450 myth per week if you use it."

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Yes, WoW allows a run-around its raid lockout. SE does too if you buy more accounts. WoW allows two playing fields, SE has everyone play on the same field. That's the real grievance here. I can't raid more than once per week via 1 account. I mean I've seen people switch in-and-out of roles for different coil turns. It can be done. It's just that there is a perveted sense of entitlement that since I can play 8 roles I should be able to get gear for all 8 during the same week because you can grind mutliple characters on other game platforms to circumvent raid lockouts.

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Originally Posted by OldGeezer

It's just that there is a perveted sense of entitlement that since I can play 8 roles I should be able to get gear for all 8 during the same week...

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What I find perverse is I pay for 7 days gaming a week and yet S-E tells me I can only really use 2 of those productively to enrich my main job of choice. We're not even touching on the fact they extol the virtues of being able to level multiple jobs on one character then kneecap their own system by inflicting a one item of loot per week per character system on us. It depresses me no end that so many people are willing to accept such a blatantly obvious and insultingly lazy artificial bottleneck to compensate for woefully limited endgame content.

Yes, the least they could do to provide a robust armory system is create systems that impose restrictions by job, instead of character.

There is no logic to a design that claims the virtues of playing many jobs on one character but imposes restrictions by character rather than by job. It is inconsistent.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

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Not sure if serious, or never played 1.23.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

What I find perverse is I pay for 7 days gaming a week and yet S-E tells me I can only really use 2 of those productively to enrich my main job of choice. We're not even touching on the fact they extol the virtues of being able to level multiple jobs on one character then kneecap their own system by inflicting a one item of loot per week per character system on us. It depresses me no end that so many people are willing to accept such a blatantly obvious and insultingly lazy artificial bottleneck to compensate for woefully limited endgame content.

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It's called balance for PVE and PVP. If all classes had access to all abilities it wouldn't be possible to keep things balanced between all of the roles. It's only a bottleneck if you limit yourself to 30% of the game. It is your choice but your "bottleneck" isn't an issue for many people who play.

I can't say that I'm not happy with ARR, but I can also see where he is coming from, and possibly the 1.0 fans as well as the XI fans.

Part of the fun however, in this "open world" are those instanced dungeons, those closed environments with a team coming together, binding you to those you interact with!

Of course, it is a different level if you have, let's say, an really open world without teleporting and stuff, then there you would probably form teams and friendships and whatnot to conquer the world whereas in ARR the world is pretty accessible and you can focus more on designated dungeons and its mechanics!

I did neither play XIV nor XI, but again, I can see where he is coming from and maybe ARR can implement these things in the future!

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I would fully support making the crafting system worthwhile and a necessary part of the game as long as they made it so people who did not want to craft would not be forced to craft. Something that combat-only players could use to make money... for instance, the best crafting recipes would have materials that only drop in dungeons and endgame raids. Bosses would directly drop "good" loot, and give tokens for equally good loot as they do now, but they would also drop materials for crafting the "best" loot.

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This this this. I am more of a combat player, altho I do enjoy crafting and plan on leveling some crafting classes. I agree with OP, almost 100%, but I wouldn't want crafting to support the entire game. It needs to be balanced and there needs to be a way for people who don't want to craft to make money.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrZUUmiPtXo

/doze

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If the pace of combat in FFXI is "slow" and XIV 2.0 is "fast," then 1.23 was a moderate pace. You didn't have to store TP to 100 or sit on your ass to recover MP, but you didn't have to act every second either.

2.0 does a great job of making you feel busy, but sheer business shouldn't intrude on a combat system like this. An encounter should test player/PT understanding of mechanics - both of their own jobs and of the target - and ability to cooperate. Now, make no mistake: 2.0 does this. But it is agitated by a combat system that forces players to issue commands at a rate arbitrarily dictated by the "global standard."

In other words, it is entirely possible to have all the weight-dodgin', voice-stunnin', nail-bustin', conflagration-extinguishin', plume-whackin' and ultima-avertin' that we have now without the compulsion to press a key at extremely short intervals.

When players complain about the fact that FFXI combat system is slow compared to FFXIV, they often forget it's a turn-based battle system that's still active and with a cool-down mechanic everyone has to deal with.

Mobs followed you to the ends of the zone or until you were dead. TP build up even when your are hit/ take damage oppose to ARR where you spamming TP moves until it hits 0/3000. XIV:ARR takes patience away but replaces it with action-management.

The pros is your busier and enjoying cool moves but your forced to meet expectations due to that speed. Kill the boss fast & furious oppose to out-lasting him no matter how long your in the fight. items requirements never existed per-say but now it stinks of pure prejudice.

1.23's combat felt like it had some depth and strat to it. was it exciting to show to friends? not really, but most MMOs/RPGs arent. I dont play countless RPGs for its fast and frantic/flashy combat, i do it for a great story, loot, and strategy...turn based or not. If anything i noticed RPGs with action combat have to strip out much of the depth because it just wont work, yet slower turn based RPGs sell perfectly well last time i checked. Action RPGs lately have been more of a fad, everyones trying it because it looks "cool" and people are putting RPG factors into everything.

Legit concerns. I agree with everything.

However... 4 months in. Let's keep hope alive.

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Originally Posted by OldGeezer

It's called balance for PVE and PVP. If all classes had access to all abilities it wouldn't be possible to keep things balanced between all of the roles. It's only a bottleneck if you limit yourself to 30% of the game. It is your choice but your "bottleneck" isn't an issue for many people who play.

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Were you responding to someone else's post because you quoted mine and, well, in the context of my post your reply seems completely unrelated.

Wow they didnt lock this one, but 2 others that question the games design and choices are locked because...why not, they dont like the negative talk and refuse to respond of course.

Give them time, hopefully they'll reply. This would probably go to Yoshi-P, so it would take longer to get a translated reply there.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Were you responding to someone else's post because you quoted mine and, well, in the context of my post your reply seems completely unrelated.

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You made two points. I commented on both of them.