Auto attack: A complete battle system

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Originally Posted by Aion

thats good but...we need something else to make it interesting...just dunno what....

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You know what made this game more interesting? no auto attack...

ok Reika time to get over it.

Lets get back on topic. I'm reposting my OP to try and get things back on track.

All basic attacks are now auto attacks. Attack and be turned on/off (while weapon is drawn) as not to break sleep or bind or other forms of crowd control. The rate of attack is based on weapon type. So 2 handers attack slow but hit hard, and one handers attack fast but light. Auto attacks generate TP which is used for abilities or weapon skills. the Rate of attack can be augmented through the use of food, spells or gear.

Stamina remains in place and is used to govern the amount of Spells/Skills you can use in a time frame. Stamina is regenerated at a steady rate which can be augmented through food, spells or abilities.

Spells, Weapon skills, and abilities consume TP and/or Stamina and can be used at will as long as you have the available TP and/or stamina to do so.

Battle regimens abilities can be cued up (TP and stamina for skill consumed) Auto attack continues until regimen is completed or canceled. No WS or abilities can be used while cued for a battle regimen.

Funny how you tell me to get over it, when you couldn't get over not having it ^^

Auto-attacks should also use stamina, as they are still weapon swings that take some kind of energy to accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Reika

In another thread it was suggested that the base 0tp cost attacks that we have be toggled as the auto attack of choice. I like that idea.

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That sounds similar to PWI (and sort of Guild Wars), which wasn't terrible, but certainly forgettable. Ironically, I seem to recall mashing 1 often in that game to get switched back to "auto" attack.

It was just someones suggestion. I havent played Guild Wars in years so I wouldnt remember.

We will just have to see what they do and what kind of 'tactics' this will promote.

Edit: and regardless, I am still against auto attack.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

ok Reika time to get over it.

Lets get back on topic. I'm reposting my OP to try and get things back on track.

All basic attacks are now auto attacks. Attack and be turned on/off (while weapon is drawn) as not to break sleep or bind or other forms of crowd control. The rate of attack is based on weapon type. So 2 handers attack slow but hit hard, and one handers attack fast but light. Auto attacks generate TP which is used for abilities or weapon skills. the Rate of attack can be augmented through the use of food, spells or gear.

Stamina remains in place and is used to govern the amount of Spells/Skills you can use in a time frame. Stamina is regenerated at a steady rate which can be augmented through food, spells or abilities.

Spells, Weapon skills, and abilities consume TP and/or Stamina and can be used at will as long as you have the available TP and/or stamina to do so.

Battle regimens abilities can be cued up (TP and stamina for skill consumed) Auto attack continues until regimen is completed or canceled. No WS or abilities can be used while cued for a battle regimen.

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What determines which are the "basic" attacks that are utilized during auto attack in the AA system you described? All DoW/DoM have multiple "basic" attacks, which each serve different purposes currently. How will things like "Multishot" work? With the horrendous sluggishness of the macro system, how do you integrate things like "Hawk's Eye" or "Raging Strike" into an attack? How will reactive abilities like "Phalanx" operate if you happen to auto-attack at the wrong time?

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Originally Posted by cataclysm

What determines which are the "basic" attacks that are utilized during auto attack in the AA system you described? All DoW/DoM have multiple "basic" attacks, which each serve different purposes currently. How will things like "Multishot" work? With the horrendous sluggishness of the macro system, how do you integrate things like "Hawk's Eye" or "Raging Strike" into an attack? How will reactive abilities like "Phalanx" operate if you happen to auto-attack at the wrong time?

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Oh i am sure most of the people calling for auto attack most likely didn't take into account that almost every battle class has at least 4 basic attacks, each usually having a different effect. Heck, there are some people demanding auto attack that haven't even reached the rank to obtain higher basic attacks...

But it will be interesting to see what they do with all of these. Maybe they will have to scrap all but one for each class and do a 'stance' system.....

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

How do you go about reducing the spamming of abilities (pressing buttons) ?

I can think of 4 things:
1)Make attacks more powerful so less input is needed per battle.
2)increase stamina use per attack to slow down rate of attack
3)slow down stamina regen rate again to slow down rate of attack
4) implement basic auto attack reduce the input load of building TP.

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For sure, I don't like your idea. Making the action slower only make this game even more boring than the currently.

I think the point here is "How to make battle system that not allow you to spam"

Try to make mob hard enough that if you not use your TP properly then you will die. and easy mob give low SP.

I'm eager to see what they have planned. I was for auto attack to be implemented and saw manual attack as something I didn't see lending itself to a different type of redesigned system in the first place.

Regardless, I think people should wait and see the plans before attacking the change. You have no details about the new format other than your normal attacks will be automatic, and I don't think that warrants a complete blow out of the whole change all together.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Greetings everyone. We have some comments for you regarding auto-attack, straight from FFXIV battle lead, Akihiko Matsui.

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Ok, just a thing,
I don't like to see characters glued on a monster, but they should have a realistic battle collision.
I hope you take this into account.

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Originally Posted by Alise

For sure, I don't like your idea. Making the action slower only make this game even more boring than the currently.

I think the point here is "How to make battle system that not allow you to spam"

Try to make mob hard enough that if you not use your TP properly then you will die. and easy mob give low SP.

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For sure... Slow = Z z z z for me. I need ACTION!

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Malakhim. I was only trying to say that this game is not perfect or even close. I'm tired of people defending it at every turn. Like how 51% of Republican's still think Obama isn't an American.

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First... Where do you get your stats? 51% really, can you back that up with some sources. And second... I don't think that analogy is even needed or relevant.

But on to your comment about BR, I agree, that perhaps the new battle system will use it in a better way, or improve upon it. Can't wait to see what they do. :)

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Originally Posted by cataclysm

What determines which are the "basic" attacks that are utilized during auto attack in the AA system you described? All DoW/DoM have multiple "basic" attacks, which each serve different purposes currently. How will things like "Multishot" work? With the horrendous sluggishness of the macro system, how do you integrate things like "Hawk's Eye" or "Raging Strike" into an attack? How will reactive abilities like "Phalanx" operate if you happen to auto-attack at the wrong time?

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Much of the system stays the same. Hawk's eye and Raging strike are "buff" type abilities and have no reason to change, you activate them and use them. If you are concerned about an AA eating the buff, either AA aren't augmented by some "attack enhancing" buffs or thats where AA toggle on/off comes in handy.

Phalanx again has no need to change, it's a reactive ability and when conditions are met you activate the skill.

as far as additional "basic" attacks you gain from rank up. Those are either situational skills like Heavy thrust. It's a skil thats on a short cool down, with high accuracy and potent "bind" type effect.

Attacks like "Pierce" which adds an AoE component can become slotable upgrades so all your AA have AoE capability (at your choice, since you have to slot it maybe under "traits")

Or "Pierce" becomes an alternative attack, or a "stance" like Reika suggested. you activate this as you AA, or your stance, it adds slight delay, slight attack loss, but hits multiple mobs.

great changes don't need to be made to the battle system to include AA. Balance of TP gain and weapon delay are the pivotal aspects that need to be largely taken into account.

I'm excited to see what they have in store of us ^^

Excellent Dev post! I'm grateful for the information and professionalism. I'm also super excited about auto-attack for a number of reasons.

Nice move SE, now bring that same sort of decision making into other areas of the game.

I thought we was suppose to get an update on patch 1.17 this week.

I just hope that they don't make it exactly like it was in 11... I hated that battle system. It was soooo slooowwwwww! It was cool when you had TP and could dish out some very cool graphical weapon skills.... that much i liked. But the battle itself usually took a VERY long time because of the incredibly slow auto attack system. And to me it was pretty boring... sitting there for 10-15 seconds until i could get 100 TP and then do a WS. woopdee... nah I don't want that to happen to this game. If they do that then the auto attack better be faster (as they say it will be but who knows) and TP gain better be comparable to what we have now. Please don't screw this up SE...

I can only say ....Haste gear :D

SE continue what youre doing.

Im happy if auto attack comes back but the real issue for me with auto attack is battle speed , i hope for a faster battle system than ff11 and well i guess, get basics right they can build on the system after and maybe improve it.

I would like to interact in battle but not to point where i spam actions like with current system so i hope this will be a good change for final fantasy 14 and certainly in my view something that is needed.

Om another note will the battle user interface get tweaked with the battle update? , that is something i like to see i kinda prefer the interface in 11 to way 14 is.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

Much of the system stays the same. Hawk's eye and Raging strike are "buff" type abilities and have no reason to change, you activate them and use them. If you are concerned about an AA eating the buff, either AA aren't augmented by some "attack enhancing" buffs or thats where AA toggle on/off comes in handy.

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You cannot have it "stay the same" and add AA. It is a fundamental game change.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

Phalanx again has no need to change, it's a reactive ability and when conditions are met you activate the skill.

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For many reactive abilities, it will not allow you to execute if you step over them with another attack or ability even if you previously met the requirements. Although Phalanx seems to be the most forgiving of those. But again, what about abilities like "Multishot"? That particular ability absolutely cannot function or exist in the AA system you have described.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

as far as additional "basic" attacks you gain from rank up. Those are either situational skills like Heavy thrust. It's a skil thats on a short cool down, with high accuracy and potent "bind" type effect.

Attacks like "Pierce" which adds an AoE component can become slotable upgrades so all your AA have AoE capability (at your choice, since you have to slot it maybe under "traits")

Or "Pierce" becomes an alternative attack, or a "stance" like Reika suggested. you activate this as you AA, or your stance, it adds slight delay, slight attack loss, but hits multiple mobs.

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I really don't understand the term "basic" attack. There are many attacks in the game right now that serve different purposes. Often times within the same battle. If a button needs to be pushed to enable a different type of attack, then isn't that then just the exact same system we have now?

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

great changes don't need to be made to the battle system to include AA. Balance of TP gain and weapon delay are the pivotal aspects that need to be largely taken into account.

I'm excited to see what they have in store of us ^^

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Not only is AA a great change in itself, great change is a REQUIREMENT for an AA system to be included at this stage. To be quite frank, they can't even figure out how to add a targeting system that has any resemblance to a usable functioning system, and all of a sudden they will add AA that is going to work? Forgive me if I have my reservations or concerns.

Will those that have been clamoring for this finally sit down and play this game without reservation? Or will they leave again at the drop of a hat when they level up and find the games true issues, frustrations, and shortcomings? Those very same issues that are being delayed or outright ignored due to these limited resources being allocated to working on things like AA?

I'm hoping that with the "timing of the attacks" that stamina still exists solely for Weapon Skills. And say your party wants to do a skillchain. You'd better have enough Stamina saved up.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Funny how you tell me to get over it, when you couldn't get over not having it ^^

Auto-attacks should also use stamina, as they are still weapon swings that take some kind of energy to accomplish.

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SO you Did want this game to get shut down i see. because if it didnt change more and more ppl would have left you have to know this, though you choose to deny it get over it i'm for making this game better and this is a good step

Ok, so i havent ever given an opinion on this subject, for the fact that either system would be fine with me. Ill learn either one...but after reading what the devs said and a few other post....one thing troubles me, and im not sure if it has been discussed before...but what about archer, will it be a auto attack or close and normal arrow attacks...and will that consume a hell of alot of arrows!!! ><
I know there has been talk about reworking the classes...and maybe that means adding a melee attack to archers like FFXI had...but if this is put into the game before that....im curious how the archer will play out. Any info that someone can link me to or has a idea or opnion would be awsome :)

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Originally Posted by CK11

Ok, so i havent ever given an opinion on this subject, for the fact that either system would be fine with me. Ill learn either one...but after reading what the devs said and a few other post....one thing troubles me, and im not sure if it has been discussed before...but what about archer, will it be a auto attack or close and normal arrow attacks...and will that consume a hell of alot of arrows!!! ><
I know there has been talk about reworking the classes...and maybe that means adding a melee attack to archers like FFXI had...but if this is put into the game before that....im curious how the archer will play out. Any info that someone can link me to or has a idea or opnion would be awsome :)

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I really do hope it's more like FFXI. I really enjoy being able to use both a melee and ranged weapon at once on the same class. Auto-attack for ranged weapons would be pretty bad.

Macro for Ranged Attack FTW!! It worked in FFXI, so it will work here too.

I'm glad to hear news about the battle system, and I'm glad they may implement auto attack. I like the way the fights are with it, and of course this doesn't mean that it will makes the game easier (even If that's possible xD).

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Originally Posted by Jigg

I have been playing DC Universe Online, and I really like the way they handle things (at least on the controller side).

They do not have auto-attack, but I think auto-attack works in a FFXIV setting.

Drop the basic attack from the command bar (this is what auto-attack will use)
Hold the Left-Trigger and use the 4 button for the first 4 actions of the command bar
Hold the Right-Trigger and use the 4 buttons for the second 4 actions of the command bar

This however leaves one command without a button...I'm still working on this idea. I just hate having to constantly move around the command bar to select an attack instead of just hitting a bound button combination.

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I think this is an excelant idea, it actually doesn't have to leave a command without a button... make the non triggered use of the current activate button equal the basic attack (which is always equiped) and then drop the command bar to 8

please do NOT implement auto attack!

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Originally Posted by Reika

Oh i am sure most of the people calling for auto attack most likely didn't take into account that almost every battle class has at least 4 basic attacks, each usually having a different effect. Heck, there are some people demanding auto attack that haven't even reached the rank to obtain higher basic attacks...

But it will be interesting to see what they do with all of these. Maybe they will have to scrap all but one for each class and do a 'stance' system.....

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Yeah what about all of the different attacks that the jobs have? I liked having that as well but I guess they'll scrap that too....

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Originally Posted by Shikyo

SO you Did want this game to get shut down i see. because if it didnt change more and more ppl would have left you have to know this, though you choose to deny it get over it i'm for making this game better and this is a good step

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You act as though people only left because the game didn't have auto-attack which is not the case. Most of the people I talked to stopped playing because they wanted more content.


Edit: But like I said before I'll try to keep an open mind about the auto-attack. Maybe it'll be a good thing^^

Cant say I was a fan of auto attack back in the day, but if its faster than XI, allows for more strategic and tension packed battles, and we somehow end up with better looking battle animations and effects, then i'm game. Also hopefully i'll have something to record and put up on my XIV channel. Never expected the game to have been out this long and still have only 1 video up :P

Either way, 1.17 seems like it might go up sometime next week then?

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Originally Posted by Joe_Cool

You act as though people only left because the game didn't have auto-attack which is not the case. Most of the people I talked to stopped playing because they wanted more content.


Edit: But like I said before I'll try to keep an open mind about the auto-attack. Maybe it'll be a good thing^^

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What people seem to be forgetting is that certainly this is to a degree a lack of content. Classes being unique? Lack of content. Introduction of the aggro icon? Lack of content. Problems with little party play in the game. Lack of content. You say people leave the game due to lack of content, well it's one in the same. There's not enough good "content" to keep me hooked on this game. I'd much rather be off playing my Xbox with friends.

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Originally Posted by YUGON

Macro for Ranged Attack FTW!! It worked in FFXI, so it will work here too.

I'm glad to hear news about the battle system, and I'm glad they may implement auto attack. I like the way the fights are with it, and of course this doesn't mean that it will makes the game easier (even If that's possible xD).

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That makes a huge assumption that the macro system in XIV works, which it does not. Not only is the system fundamentally different than XI, it is also completely broken. I believe the macro system needs to be completely redesigned from the ground up, before they should even start to consider AA. Not to mention the fact that targeting is in purgatory right now and it doesn't look like its going to change anytime soon.

To me, if they have to differentiate how disciplines operate in an AA system, then the system is bad. Keep in mind, that RNG also regularly performed melee attacks in XI up until the distance "patch". It was not originally designed to stand back and only lob arrows.

Nothing in this game needs to be "Completely redesigned from the ground up."

The macro system is annoying true, and can stand to be a bit easier to create macros, but it and nothing else needs to be wiped out completely to be redone.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Nothing in this game needs to be "Completely redesigned from the ground up."

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Both professional and amateur reviewer say the opposite. Even the polls have distain. You're on the very weak side of the minority.

I guess they should just shut the game down like they did ADH so they can redesign the whole thing.....

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Originally Posted by Reika

I guess they should just shut the game down like they did ADH so they can redesign the whole thing.....

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Yeah, what this game needs right now is to the developers to develop the game in a bubble once again.

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Originally Posted by Joe_Cool

You act as though people only left because the game didn't have auto-attack which is not the case. Most of the people I talked to stopped playing because they wanted more content.


Edit: But like I said before I'll try to keep an open mind about the auto-attack. Maybe it'll be a good thing^^

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NO clown that is not what i am saying at all, all i am saying is this is an improvement the end.

We can only hope that even with adding a piece to the puzzle that not everyone likes, it will overall have good effects for the whole group by forcing them to address the problems the combat really has. I just hope the skill required and the effort needed for battle will not be undone.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

Your ignorance is forgiven.

Any auto attack system will resemble another auto attack system. FFXI / WoW / Aion / Rift.

In FFXI you had to auto attack 5-10 times (depending on gear and store TP) to be able to use 1 TP move.
Under FFXIV conditions you can use TP skills after a single attack.

As a mouse and K/B user the need to hit "1" to attack isn't much of an issue. But as soon as you pick up a gamepad you are very very busy scrolling through attacks to fire a TP ability then scroll through icons to end up at "basic attack" again.

Implementing an auto attack feature will free up the need to constantly be busy finding that one attack.

If people are worried about auto attack being a huge source of dmg or having people AFK and just auto attack mobs. Lower the attack rating on these basic attacks so they become purely TP generators and not DMG skills.
So after a single auto attack you can start to use your TP abilities.

Differnces between my idea for auto attack and FFXI for your enjoyment:
Mine:
Auto attack speed based on weapon type
Auto attacks generate TP
stamina governs the speed and number of TP skills you can use in a given time frame
TP allows you to use skills on demand
Auto attack continues while cued for battle regimen, however TP skills can't be used in this state.

FFXI:
Auto attack speed based on weapon delay
TP skills used once 100-300 TP is reached

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I see the logic here indeed. However, part of the reason I enjoyed the auto-attack function in FFXI is because in each party you may get for example a samurai, or a thief, or a tank/mage of varying different skill levels. In this regard you would have players that can really play well and players who can't be bothered or play casually.

I personally worked hard in FFXI to become the best party player I could be and felt a sense of achievement from being appreciated by my fellow party members for performing well. My philosophy in many things is if you put the effort in (correct gear, clever macros, communicate tactics and battle info well, good response times to unfolding battle events) then you will enjoy the game more anyway.

I say leave the lazy players alone. It gives the community the freedom to be less than average, or be very successful like real life. It allows skilful players to shine. Because what's the main reasons you play MMO's for such a long period of time? Well that's easy - progression (storyline, new abilities), socialise and make friends and last but not least, for a large sense of achievement.

[EDIT]

Oh thought I'd add my 2-pence here as well to save me writing another post.

I for one am in favour of auto-attack. Here are my reasons:

1. When attacking a creature, if the battle changes suddenly, I have time to use another/different ability than I was going to use. I could mention a long list of various different situations here. I won't mention the frustrating lag between attacks, I think this point has been raised already.

2. Another would be the amount of time to gain TP for TP abilities. 3 hits tend to be the average for gaining 1000TP which is the average needed for using most TP abilities. (Or 2 hits for a 500TP ability and a Second Wind for example). I think FFXIV would benefit greatly from auto-attack in this regard.

3. Third of all, it would speed up battles and add somewhat more structure to battles allowing for more strategy and skill (and the timing would still be there). With the wider array of skills you can pick from different classes, it stands to reason that the abilities you pick are going to be more useful and used more and battles would still be action packed even with addition of auto-attack. It just leaves out a minor TP building attack to focus on more important battle commands.

4. With your hands more free, you can relay battle information and strategy between your party members easier and keep a lot more combat efficiency.

Having said all that, I think that having had 2 manual attack modes for over six months from release, SE should allow players to switch between manual attack mode to auto-attack mode. I know from experience that when you give a consumer something for a period of time and then take it away, you lose a vast proportion of consumer trust as opposed to if you hadn't offered it in the first place.

I think it's important for SE to decide carefully here so as not to lose any more consumer trust.

To Uazet,

Couldn't agree with you more. Especially on your fourth reason. During combat the only way viable to communicate is through ventrillo or skype simply because you're smashing buttons too much to even talk on the game. I for one really hate using ventrillo since it's never required except for HNMLS in FFXI.

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I for one really hate using ventrillo since it's never required except for HNMLS in FFXI.

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Yet it is de-facto for any serious MMORPG released after 2002.

I for one would like this game to be put up to the standards of MMORPG gameplay.