Feelings on FF14's Trinity System?

Thats system as long gone dead after ARR. Sure there was sparkle of sch dps but rest was pretty much tanks on tank stance moving boss,whm was the main healer and etc back on coil. But current meta is Damage. All the job are dps,green dps, blue dps. Right now green dps sucks in terms of gameplay, Blue dps as gone too much change to be boring and dps are starting to get same treatment going the easy route.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I don't think you can attach any kind of DPS bonus to being the main or off tank, it will inevitably create issues with people not wanting to take the spot that makes them do less damage for basically no reason.
We already had that problem when all it did was mess with your opener and I doubt you're gonna get that out of the playerbase at this point.

The other issue with frontal positionals, depending on what they end up doing, is bosses with any kind of AoE busters or cleaves.

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Personally, I hate having to curb design ideas based on people being whiny brats. So I do not accept that as a counter argument against the actual design of the mechanic.

Obviously we just need to bring back tank stance dancing except adjust the values so that one emnity combo cant hold the boss indefinitely.
DPS stance could drop the -20% hidden potency nerf tanks have and also drop the baked in 20% mitigation as well

Which will never happen but one can dream.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Obviously we just need to bring back tank stance dancing except adjust the values so that one emnity combo cant hold the boss indefinitely.
DPS stance could drop the -20% hidden potency nerf tanks have and also drop the baked in 20% mitigation as well

Which will never happen but one can dream.

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Getting stance dancing back and needing to manage aggro myself with a proper design is a pipe dream I'll never see realized

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Personally, I hate having to curb design ideas based on people being whiny brats. So I do not accept that as a counter argument against the actual design of the mechanic.

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Whining aside, I just don't consider punishing the tank for essentially doing their job is a good design idea.
It's basically just bringing back the tank stance penalty but without the option of turning it off.

Punishment mechanics are fine when you can actually do something about it, you can't not have a main tank.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Getting stance dancing back and needing to manage aggro myself with a proper design is a pipe dream I'll never see realized

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That's the sad part about it, it was never really tried out properly. I wish we had the chance to at least have a interesting aggro/stance system but instead what we got was press aggro button now you tank... Which is about as intense as FF14 healing so I guess they're consistent on that.

Even worse actually tanks are still being dummed down despite removing stances, as a long time PLD player 6.3 rework couldn't be bothered to even try and keep its second combo path. In general tanks rotation's are just spamming 1, 2, 3 over and over and over. At least make the dps rotation intresting.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Tank will generally need DPS in all serious content due to the fact checks do actually exist, obviously as time carries on and tanks start doing DPS numbers with better gear then yeah 8 tank parties can generally do DPS checks fine... This is very dependent.

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I know "serious" content will require the help of the other roles. That's why I stated normal content. Most players aren't doing the high-end duties. In the high-end duties, everyone is still needed to some degree as much as there are healers that complain about a lack of anything to do. It's going to be a very rare group that can pull off a clear of a high-end duty without at least one healer (and they're probably going to have more than the standard 2 tanks when they do it).

Tank is the broken link because it's far too self-sufficient. A tank should not be able to solo the majority of level 90 dungeon bosses and yet I've done that for friends and family that are not so great players to help them get through the MSQ. I would not have been able to do it as a healer. I would not have been able to do it as a DPS. Yet I did it on several bosses as a tank (and I'm not all a stellar tank).

Encounter design itself could use some work but that a lost cause with SE's healer philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Whining aside, I just don't consider punishing the tank for essentially doing their job is a good design idea.
It's basically just bringing back the tank stance penalty but without the option of turning it off.

Punishment mechanics are fine when you can actually do something about it, you can't not have a main tank.

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Why is it a "punishment" though? If it's factored in as an expectation of the role, how is that any different than the difference in DPS between roles, or even sub roles of DPS? Also, you do have an entire rest of a kit to potentially play around with. While one action might offer less damage while main tanking, another could offer more. You could have multiple tools that shift in value depending on what position you're at as a Tank, and trying to reserve resources for when you're one or the other could become a new aspect of skill expression.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

touche.

back on topic, Mao got me thinking,

I do remember an mmo (can't remember the name, maybe Warhammer Online?) where if you heal spammed, you would quickly take all the aggro no matter what your tank or dps did. Tanks served the same role, but DPS and healers both had to be a bit careful not to go overboard with their healing/dps or they would find themselves the target.

I'm not sure how that would work in FFXIV, we've done it this way for so long that people would be unhappy if you suddenly changed how they needed to play in a fundamental way.

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We did have that before with Shroud of Saints. The devs took it from WHM, removed the reduction of enmity, changed the name to Lucid Dreaming and gave it to every healer. Scholar had passive enmity reduction because the fairy had it's own enmity regarding healing.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Why is it a "punishment" though? If it's factored in as an expectation of the role, how is that any different than the difference in DPS between roles, or even sub roles of DPS?

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Yes, because this isn't a difference between roles or even sub roles, it's the exact same role but you do less damage by actually performing your role. Like I said, that's just old tank stance but with no option to turn it off.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Also, you do have an entire rest of a kit to potentially play around with. While one action might offer less damage while main tanking, another could offer more. You could have multiple tools that shift in value depending on what position you're at as a Tank, and trying to reserve resources for when you're one or the other could become a new aspect of skill expression.

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Your initial proposal included none of that. You just talked about an attack doing either more enmity or more damage depending on whether or not you're main or off tank.