New Shatter map... something Feels off.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Agreed, and that would be achieved by separating queues into solo and party. You'd then have your utopia of all premades.

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Yes, that might be good, but I can't see there be a critical mass for people to join that, just because Square Enix doesn't reward pvp enough - it would be a dead game mode without any rewards.
Balancing is a problem in every frontline, and they should really fix it, it would be more fun for everyone.

However, as I said I would love this discussion to keep being about shatter, so i will turn it back to shatter. I don't think balancing would solve the problem of game mode not being fun.

It's quite hard to quantify "fun" and everyone has different metrics. For me is amount of challenge.

I played a game of shatter where most of the 72 players were in a qsync event. (it would be great if we could have a custom matches for FL, and I don't even need rewards! most people playing them have those anyway!). And that took the whole 20 minutes of game time and in the end the time ran out - it was more fun than all randoms... But these are not run anymore because everyone finds them boring and people just don't turn up.

In a solo queue when I command...it's basically the same stuff...go to the ice...kill the ice...quickly pinch people fighting over the ice...quickly go back and kill another ice...rinse repeat. There is no randomness, and almost no 3vs fights. Even when I am in the lead by 800 points, i don't get both teams contesting - I only get 1. The other is off destroying their own ice. I expect people to come kill me when i am in the lead - and they just don't.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

I am sorry, but you are building a strawman arguement and putting words in my mouth. You don't know me and how i play - I never said i run a DRK/DRK/AST/DRG premade - and often times i don't (and i don't think i ever had?)! Sometimes I play drk, sometimes i play paladin, sometimes i play samurai, sometimes i play white mage, sometimes i play ...every other class. I don't control what my friends play! Please build another strawman somewhere else and fight it there.

The meta for current shatter is super simple:
Step 1. Gain BATTLE HIGH by killing people
Step 2. Kill ice and enemy players that come to it.

It's literally is that simple and if you have a team that follows you - you kill people faster and get BH faster. I agree that encourages PVE - and that's why it's not fun.

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With how new your account is, and how many posts you have I'm starting to think you're a troll poster. So I'll entertain you one final time.

-You are claiming that your forming a premade with your friends. That gives us leverage to assume that one; You're leading an organized group of players, two; You're making call outs with the intention to steamroll the enemy team, and three; you're playing to win. Don't identify with premades if you're not willing to take the heat.

I don't care if you're not playing downright obstructive, and obnoxious premade compos. But don't expect sympathy when people call you out for doing so.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

The meta for current shatter is super simple:
Step 1. Gain BATTLE HIGH by killing people
Step 2. Kill ice and enemy players that come to it.

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That directly does not support the statistics that people have posted.

Smashing ice IS the only win condition.

-You can only attack one team at a time.
-Attacking that team at their ice slows the destruction of that ice, giving the second team oppurtunity to pinch your team, and your team will have no escape.
-Middle node spawns. Again, you can only attack one team. The team you're not attacking is getting points off the node.
-Small nodes spawn? Again, the team thats split up, not killing players is going to get the majority of the points.
This is why the winning team in the majority of instances does not have a high kill count, or a high death count. It's the team thats not engaging in PvP. In every instance where you prioritize PvP, it costs your team in this mode. Battle High in the new shatter is not enough of a benefit to outweigh the loss of points you're likely to experience, and why premades ultimately do not work as often on this map.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

With how new your account is, and how many posts you have I'm starting to think you're a troll poster. So I'll entertain you one final time.

-You are claiming that your forming a premade with your friends. That gives us leverage to assume that one; You're leading an organized group of players, two; You're making call outs with the intention to steamroll the enemy team, and three; you're playing to win. Don't identify with premades if you're not willing to take the heat.

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Yes my account on this forum is new because I wanted to come here and complain about shatter changes and heard square enix reads this forum. But you can see i have probably played longer than you, or at least have more classes levelled, so please don't be delusional. Does that mean i am not a troll? No, but i sure as hell am a serious player and have been for some time.
Yes, of course the point of ANY game is to win - I would assume my friends play to win. If we happen to "steamroll" the other team...well...that is the game. I don't see any problems playing with friends - and the developers clearly don't as well - that's why the option is there. I don't get salty on official forums about loosing to a premade - because they aren't that difficult to counter, and I wish more people cared for it - it would make games way more fun.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

That directly does not support the statistics that people have posted.

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All i am saying is that gaining battle high makes you destroy ice faster - and if your team gets BH5 and stops engaging in PVP - you have very high chance of winning. If you think otherwise, please enjoy your games and I frankly don't have anything to advise you on.

If you find some statistic that shows that BH5 isn't worth getting to destroy ice faster - please forward it here, I am sure this will encourage square enix to revamp shatter game mode quicker.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

Yes my account on this forum is new because I wanted to come here and complain about shatter changes and heard square enix reads this forum. But you can see i have probably played longer than you, or at least have more classes levelled, so please don't be delusional.

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Who is strawmanning who now? You're assuming that my displayed character on my forums is my main, which it is not. I enjoy my privacy away from forum trolls. I have every job maxxed to 90, and I have dozens of alts with jobs up to lvl 90. Don't be condescending, the hypocrisy is rich with that statement.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

I don't get salty on official forums about loosing to a premade - because they aren't that difficult to counter

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Just going to outright dismiss that combatting premades isn't difficult? Out of touch, completely disregarding every point we've been making in this thread. Are you here to be serious? Or are you here just to farm reactions out of people?

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

All i am saying is that gaining battle high makes you destroy ice faster - and if your team gets BH5 and stops engaging in PVP - you have very high chance of winning. If you think otherwise, please enjoy your games and I frankly don't have anything to advise you on.

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It's not thinking, its knowing that it does not help. I'll sound like a broken record, but let me remind you;

Every second you spend attacking another player, is a second you're not accruing points from a node. They're practically ALWAYS up in this game mode, with no downtime.

Is battle high helpful? Yes. Does farming Battle High V improve your odds of winning? No. The team that PvP's on this map, again, loses.

What helps win this map?
-Stealing enemies big ice nodes, by getting there first, putting a big dent in the ice's health pool, and pulling out before getting pinched.
-Spreading out to smash small nodes.
-Avoiding getting bogged down in PvP with the other teams, that can cost your team your big node.
-Accrue Battle high when its convient. It's not a priority, and prioritizing the farming of it in the long run is costly.

Do what you want, I don't really care if you disagree with my points. I have firsthand experience, and I've reviewed the statistics of matches that have been submitted by others, and my own matches. The data does not encourage people to fight. This map as a result is not fun, and I do not queue for it beyond getting my daily roulette.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

The data does not encourage people to fight. This map as a result is not fun, and I do not queue for it beyond getting my daily roulette.

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We can agree on that, and that's all that's important. It's a sad state of affairs. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

What helps win this map?
-Stealing enemies big ice nodes, by getting there first, putting a big dent in the ice's health pool, and pulling out before getting pinched.
-Spreading out to smash small nodes.
-Avoiding getting bogged down in PvP with the other teams, that can cost your team your big node.
-Accrue Battle high when its convient. It's not a priority, and prioritizing the farming of it in the long run is costly.

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This is a pretty sound strategy. You'll want to kick enemies off the big when you can as well.

Shatter..it's something.

Your mileage may vary with this next statement, but I believe the backlash is unwarranted for Shatter.

What I landed on is (yes really) this iteration of Shatter must fulfill SE's vision for a specific type of PVP. A very different type of PVP than the community is used to, but maybe that's intentional.

I see this rendition of PVP as more of a race between teams to obtain points from ice more quickly than the other teams, with skirmishes to be an accessory to the mode. Obtaining points from ice more quickly than the other teams- in the same vein as racing other teams to a finish line in a cooperative racing game- is the main form of "pvp" occurring.

Coming from that perspective...I don't believe something feels off with Shatter. I believe it's intentionally fundamentally different than Onsal or Seal Rock. Is it something I enjoy playing? Sometimes, but not all the time. I'm sure there are solo/partied players who enjoy this new flavour of PVP, and I don't want to discount any of that.

Is this me white knighting poor PVP development? I'm honestly not sure anymore. If you have fun with it, you do you.

EDIT: So yes, exactly like item #1 from OPs post, without the followthrough of making this type of PVP separate from actual PVP. PVE-flavoured FL 1/3 of the time. Kinda like getting 3 scoops of ice cream on a cone, and you hate one of the flavours.

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Originally Posted by Aubrey_A

Shatter..it's something.

Your mileage may vary with this next statement, but I believe the backlash is unwarranted for Shatter.

What I landed on is (yes really) this iteration of Shatter must fulfill SE's vision for a specific type of PVP. A very different type of PVP than the community is used to, but maybe that's intentional.

I see this rendition of PVP as more of a race between teams to obtain points from ice more quickly than the other teams, with skirmishes to be an accessory to the mode. Obtaining points from ice more quickly than the other teams- in the same vein as racing other teams to a finish line in a cooperative racing game- is the main form of "pvp" occurring.

Coming from that perspective...I don't believe something feels off with Shatter. I believe it's intentionally fundamentally different than Onsal or Seal Rock. Is it something I enjoy playing? Sometimes, but not all the time. I'm sure there are solo/partied players who enjoy this new flavour of PVP, and I don't want to discount any of that.

Is this me white knighting poor PVP development? I'm honestly not sure anymore. If you have fun with it, you do you.

EDIT: So yes, exactly like item #1 from OPs post, without the followthrough of making this type of PVP separate from actual PVP. PVE-flavoured FL 1/3 of the time. Kinda like getting 3 scoops of ice cream on a cone, and you hate one of the flavours.

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PvP stands for "Player Versus Player." That means I want to slaughter some people, not play a Mario Party minigame with them.

I do agree that its intentionally made this way, and its not just a bad flavor of ice cream, its one that is a direct insult to the spirit of PvP. The condemnation of Shatter is more than warranted, especially if you don't want them implementing more of this crap.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

PvP stands for "Player Versus Player." That means I want to slaughter some people, not play a Mario Party minigame with them.

I do agree that its intentionally made this way, and its not just a bad flavor of ice cream, its one that is a direct insult to the spirit of PvP. The condemnation of Shatter is more than warranted, especially if you don't want them implementing more of this crap.

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I believe the previous version of Shatter was a more enjoyable game mode. I also firmly believe that the "spirit of PVP" PVPers understand doesn't align with SE's plan for the game. To that end, I don't think any level of condemnation of Shatter will have any effect. A post in a different thread resonates with how I think PVP develops:

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Until a critical point comes to where they absolutely need to adapt, they'll drag their feet on making iterative changes or deviations in their original plan.

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I'm hoping putting trust into the process makes for a fun game mode somewhere down the line. SE has all the statistics and metrics of play after all.

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Originally Posted by Aubrey_A

SE has all the statistics and metrics of play after all.

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At this point I just refuse to queue up on shatter days (even though i really like frontline), and encourage those who aren't happy with changes to do the same - it's the only feedback option beyond this forum and in-game help desk (doubt that has any effect, but maybe?). If statistics drop for shatter participation, it should (in theory) send a message? I hope. With secure being gone for "rework", I am down to 2 maps now.