Anyone else just feeling really disapointed this expansion?*vent*

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Optimistically the games will be sub-based - as while I am enjoying ESO much more than I think I ever have FFXIV outside of the MSQ (until its EW bellyflop), I fully believe quality tends to be better in games with a non-optional subscription model, in the long run. Or at least, are supposed to be.

The problem will be maintaining that subscription - if they choose to launch with it - rather than giving up a year in because numbers aren't where they hoped and turning it b2p/f2p. I'd hope Riot at least is smart enough to wait for a bit before doing such a thing, but this is also with the hope it will be sub-based to begin with and not f2p from the start (with their usual heavy monetization that we can see in LoL). Either way, looking forward to hearing more about their upcoming MMO.

I don't plan on another massive MMO move any time soon, as I'm quite content in ESO right now, but I never turn down potential competition in the market. Competition only breeds better performance on the part of developers, and I feel part of why FFXIV is suffering right now is - aside from FF16 development - there's not really any true competition out there right now. Perhaps WoW's newest expansion will provide a resurgence and bring it back into scope as a decent competitor, but a single game can only do so much on that front.

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I kind of think they would do an optional subscription if there was to be one (or, more likely, a battlepass). Ashes probably will be (or is) buy to play. Riot's could be good, and I'd almost place a bet that the gameplay itself will be good, but I am concerned that they will bring over similar monetization systems from their other games, or perhaps "pay for convenience" - which literally means they made the game inconvenient to be able to sell these sort of items in the first place.

I could easily see them launching it free to play with paid expansions, or buy to play with paid expansions, but, unfortunately, non-optional subscriptions are more and more becoming outdated for games, and, frankly, a lot of people nowadays just don't want to pay for it in general, especially with how many different things require subscriptions nowadays.

I definitely think more competition in the market is a good thing, even if someone doesn't intend on switching games.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I kind of think they would do an optional subscription if there was to be one (or, more likely, a battlepass). Ashes probably will be (or is) buy to play. Riot's could be good, and I'd almost place a bet that the gameplay itself will be good, but I am concerned that they will bring over similar monetization systems from their other games, or perhaps "pay for convenience" -which literally means they made the game inconvenient to be able to sell these sort of items in the first place.

I could easily see them launching it free to play with paid expansions, or buy to play with paid expansions, but, unfortunately, non-optional subscriptions are more and more becoming outdated for games, and, frankly, a lot of people nowadays just don't want to pay for it in general. Especially with how many different things require subscriptions nowadays. I definitely think more competition in the market is a good thing, even if someone doesn't intend on switching games.

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Unfortunately likely, since it is Riot. But, I suppose in the end what matters is quality of the game and what it offers or does better than its competitors. Just, I get the feeling b2p/f2p games will always have difficulty competing with subscription games for a lot of people... so here's hoping. But we aren't likely to see how things go for another couple of years, at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Optimistically the games will be sub-based - as while I am enjoying ESO much more than I think I ever have FFXIV outside of the MSQ (until its EW bellyflop), I fully believe quality tends to be better in games with a non-optional subscription model, in the long run. Or at least, are supposed to be.

The problem will be maintaining that subscription - if they choose to launch with it - rather than giving up a year in because numbers aren't where they hoped and turning it b2p/f2p. I'd hope Riot at least is smart enough to wait for a bit before doing such a thing, but this is also with the hope it will be sub-based to begin with and not f2p from the start (with their usual heavy monetization that we can see in LoL). Either way, looking forward to hearing more about their upcoming MMO.

I don't plan on another massive MMO move any time soon, as I'm quite content in ESO right now, but I never turn down potential competition in the market. Competition only breeds better performance on the part of developers, and I feel part of why FFXIV is suffering right now is - aside from FF16 development - there's not really any true competition out there right now. Perhaps WoW's newest expansion will provide a resurgence and bring it back into scope as a decent competitor, but a single game can only do so much on that front.

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I say this not to blindly praise, but to relay my observation. XIV is probably the best you'll see for a while. MMOs are the hardest to develop and maintain, mainly because of how quickly people consume content. Back when EQ was around, there wasn't much in the way of competition for people's time. Now you have all this content available to consume. No one will ever be able to keep up with the ridiculous demands. You can be mad about it or you can make the best of it. I find gaming more enjoyable when I'm not mad. :p

I stopped playing MMOs around 2013. It wasn't until 2019, when someone pointed me in this direction, that I thought I would give it one more chance. (They really had to sell me on this. :p )This has been a huge difference from all that I've experienced before. It could be better, but I know how things go, so I don't stress over little things. The game still runs well enough and I can still have fun, so I'll keep going. I'm not looking anywhere else after this.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I say this not to blindly praise, but to relay my observation. XIV is probably the best you'll see for a while. MMOs are the hardest to develop and maintain, mainly because of how quickly people consume content. Back when EQ was around, there wasn't much in the way of competition for people's time. Now you have all this content available to consume. No one will ever be able to keep up with the ridiculous demands. You can be mad about it or you can make the best of it. I find gaming more enjoyable when I'm not mad. :p

I stopped playing MMOs around 2013. It wasn't until 2019, when someone pointed me in this direction, that I thought I would give it one more chance. (They really had to sell me on this. :p )This has been a huge difference from all that I've experienced before. It could be better, but I know how things go, so I don't stress over little things. The game still runs well enough and I can still have fun, so I'll keep going. I'm not looking anywhere else after this.

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Except it's not. Quality in FFXIV has diminished severely over the 10 years I've been playing, and others have observed this as well. FFXIV also has never offered me all that much outside of the MSQ and some fun harder fights, vs something like ESO which offers me an endless amount of things to do in an active overworld full of places to explore.

I am truly happy you are still enjoying FFXIV, and please continue to do so! But realize some of us have been here for 10 years, and do not agree that this game is "the best we'll see for a while". I'd ask that people respect those who hold criticisms for the game, as much as some of us who are dissatisfied still respect those who do enjoy the game despite its glaring issues - so long as they aren't attempting to stifle genuine and valid critique or discussion of where the game can improve.

That said, I've already given up on trying to seek improvements in this game, and simply took my leave. Honestly, I feel I'm happier for it - if incredibly disappointed. But I still think people who are continuing to play but are dissatisfied with the game, have the right to voice their criticisms and hopes for improvement - without people constantly attempting to belittle their experiences or telling them to go play other games if they don't like it. That helps no one, least of all the very game you yourself are enjoying.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Yes, I'm disappointed with Endwalker.

But there's no point wasting my time typing up why, when you just get shot down with "it's fine!" and "if you don't like it quit!" while the developers state how they like it the way it is every Live Letter.

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Of course, the devs' attitude is more significant and what matters most, so I fully understand your despondence in that respect, but as for those here spending all their energy to try shut down feedback? I'd just take their own advice:

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Originally Posted by Reap00

You are correct though in the fact that only my opinion matters.

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May as well apply that thinking to your own posts too and just disregard their griping entirely.

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Originally Posted by Johners

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I don't view FFXIV as being very predatory. Other games have massive cash shops as well, these shops include "limited time" sales, a premium battlepass, literal pay to win.. Yes, I also often view cosmetic items as potentially being predatory, and I touched on "pay for convenience" in my previous post. One could argue that certain aspects of FFXIV's store are predatory, such as retainers, or just how many things are character bound, but, in my opinion, it is not on the level of others in the market. This does not give it a free pass however - especially when many of the items in said cash shop aren't even up to a standard of quality to justify their cost.. which I have touched on in other threads.

FFXIV is relatively well received, but as people's opinions sour, we will see more eyes on the cash shop and, most likely, more criticism levied that way.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Unfortunately likely, since it is Riot. But, I suppose in the end what matters is quality of the game and what it offers or does better than its competitors. Just, I get the feeling b2p/f2p games will always have difficulty competing with subscription games for a lot of people... so here's hoping. But we aren't likely to see how things go for another couple of years, at the very least.

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Yes, unfortunately, what we have is all we will have for awhile in terms of mmorpgs. Buy to play and free to play can have a lot of people. I think it's just that there isn't really anything in the market that can outcompete the subscription based mmorpgs we already have for players, and FFXIV has been the only one I can think of to really retain their model and still compete. If someone is going to pay for a subscription they will just pay it for one of these instead. We would have to have something really good, or some sort of shift, to displace what we have already in the genre.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

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One big problem is this game doesn't really have lasting content, while yes, dedicated players will generally get through things relatively quickly, there is nothing to really do in this game once you are endgame other than AFK or go clubbing.. or whatever people do. There are a few novelties to collect yes, but it's not really interesting nor does it feel very rewarding.

Things could be better, and I'd like to see them get better.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Admittedly didn't read the whole post, but yeah - sentiment is shared, by quite many people.

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I know that this is the internet, but can you cite any actual evidence for this assertion?

For instance, a quick look at Metacritic shows a Metascore of 92 and a User Score of 9.3, both considered "Universal Acclaim." Of course, such things are subjective, but we can do better than the "many people are saying," form of argument.

As far as I’m concerned the review scores that came shortly after the expansion released were fueled by the same sort of hype I was when I first played through before I stopped to think about the story that I had just been fed. Then everything came apart.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

As far as I’m concerned the review scores that came shortly after the expansion released were fueled by the same sort of hype I was when I first played through before I stopped to think about the story that I had just been fed. Then everything came apart.

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Funnily enough, I have about the same opinions on the story. I thought it was enjoyable, not as enjoyable as ShB for me personally though. Keep in mind "enjoyable" isn't a critique on the actual writing itself, as someone can find even things that are bad enjoyable. I voiced my opinions on pacing, I did not like the first half, and I thought the fake ultima thule sacrifices were really bad. I did like the Zenos fight though, that was probably one of my favorite if not my favorite part. That and interacting with Hades and Hythlodeus. :p

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I don't view FFXIV as being very predatory. Other games have massive cash shops as well, these shops include "limited time" sales, a premium battlepass, literal pay to win.. Yes, I also often view cosmetic items as potentially being predatory, and I touched on "pay for convenience" in my previous post. One could argue that certain aspects of FFXIV's store are predatory, such as retainers, or just how many things are character bound, but, in my opinion, it is not on the level of others in the market. This does not give it a free pass however - especially when many of the items in said cash shop aren't even up to a standard of quality to justify their cost.. which I have touched on in other threads.

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I don't think FFXIV is very predatory at all.

Whilst I don't want to name names, the game I played prior to FFXIV was very much so. Free to Play 'on the tin' only. Whilst there might be an argument that nothing said game sold was essential per-se, they were/are very much committed to:
- The Loot Box model and, needless to say, made the grand prize very attractive.
- Selling big ticket bundles (£200 - £300) containing much sought after items, often items from the older loot boxes with the addition of tons of fluff to justify the price-point
- FOMO - both in terms of the above (SALE - buy before it's gone-type nonsense) and time-limited in-game events with a buyout for those players unable to log in every day to collect daily progress

Although the fact that the Devs are quite adversarial and the CM useless certainly didn't help either.

Eitherway, I do feel that FFXIV has a sustainable business model, whereas F2P models such as the one I described might find themselves in trouble if they don't learn to read the room in terms of the Cost of Living issues that are being experienced in several countries.