Wondering what to do, honestly...

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Given each melee is still harder than every phys ranged and caster sans BLM, you are factually wrong

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How are the melee jobs harder than phys ranged and casters?

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

How are the melee jobs harder than phys ranged and casters?

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Harder rotations

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Harder rotations

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I find RDM's rotation much harder than NIN's since EW and I've loved playing NIN since HW and RDM since SB ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I specifically play NIN when I want braindead EZ mode rotations but high DPS. SMN is easier of course, but NIN isn't much harder for me.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I find RDM's rotation much harder than NIN's since EW and I've loved playing NIN since HW and RDM since SB ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I specifically play NIN when I want braindead EZ mode rotations but high DPS. SMN is easier of course, but NIN isn't much harder for me.

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Ninja is that you basically have to wake up every minutes.

I used to enjoy Samurai during ShB.
But... Honestly the job is way too flexible at the moment you can go freestyle.
As long as you don't forget to reset your dot (which conviniently lasts 60 seconds), the rotation is very easy.

Unless you're really digging into deep optimization, Samurai doesn't feel punishing at all.
It's harder to drift due to all the charges and your gauge is used for one button.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Harder rotations

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I ain't pro, but I was thinking about this as doing savage raiding. I just feel that the community is a bit split, and people who play in static will experience jobs completely different than people who only do PF.

I do all content in PF, because i am in stupid time zones. I personally have a very different view on jobs, than probably most people who come from statics where they cater to each other and help each other.

I put melee as easiest with phys ranged, then "casters" - yeah lets inlcude smn - then tanks, then heal. In this, healers have literal max 3 button rotation, and I would still consider them hardest, cause honestly PF atm for healers is a hot mess. Why i say this is just by looking at any run in this tier in PF. They are all waiting for a healer.... I think this is a clear indication that something is wrong. The only time I seen something like this was last tier P3 with tanks :D (nobody likes the tethers)

I myself would love to play as heal but I am super afraid to do so. Community on high end content is not as welcoming as the rest of the player base.

Pray any healers out there, Please don't quit!

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

How are the melee jobs harder than phys ranged and casters?

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I might agree with his take if with melees being harder rotation wise but then Bard kinda exists and I don't know if it's me but bard generally is very hard compared to samurai, Ninja and reaper at least... I don't know I actually find bard pretty overwhelming compared to most jobs.

Imagine trying to balance things that are "harder" but difficulty is so subjective to each person that it really doesn't matter what people find harder, I really don't think samurai deserves to be so well off if we're balancing based of difficulty, most people generally agree while it isn't super "ez" it's pretty easy and forgiving compared to a lot of other jobs.

I don't think the difference in most melees and phys ranged justifies a major difference like now. (small one sure?)

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Given each melee is still harder than every phys ranged and caster sans BLM, you are factually wrong

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I'm not gonna bother to reply to you except quoting my own message on a previous post;

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

You're making really bad jokes when you say that and it's no wonder people don't take you seriously.

But I will add facts into this conversation with actual evidences that y'all need to understand complexity involves the fight directly. Back in Stormblood, I was a Melee DPS. When I would get downtime.

Here is a video of a week 1 clear of a DRG PoV. I've put the timestamp to point my point. https://youtu.be/jISBDvFG3S4?t=73 Look at how tiny the hitbox is and look. Hello World is basically High Concept. Notice how the fight is still going and you still have to DPS? Notice how this Dragoon is forced to take the L and disengage and use his backflip to get back into the fight faster? He's still second DPS and that's taking into account the BRD is doing 5% more due to Piercing Debuff from the Dragoon. During that time, the tax to help Melee was valid.

How about we check this tier's last boss as a melee DPS? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9_t7md58v0

- No downtime (100% melee uptime)
- No positional Cry me a freaking river Melee DPS
- Every single mechanic in the fight including Natural Alignment happens in the enormous hitbox of the box so Melee can DPS.
- High Concept which WOULD induce melee downtime by the nature of mechanics has the boss conveniently invulnerable.

High Concept is the equivalent of Hello World. Why is the boss invulnerable now? Because it would suck for melee DPS. So SE designed the fight for you to not DPS on it. This is not only unfair to ranged and caster DPS who are getting taxed for no reason anymore. This is ridiculously unfair to healers who still have to plan mitigations and I can tell you a good amount of my groups wipes were healers figuring out. I had nothing to do. I guess I had to think about Radiant Aegis :pepelaugh:

So let's redefine DPS in this fight.
Caster DPS: A DPS that has to plan their movement during uptime and mechanics. Summoners gets the excuse they are basically a physical ranged DPS with 4 casts per minute.
Ranged DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility.
Melee DPS: A DPS that has infinite mobility with a 10% damage buff over Ranged and Caster.

And y'all talking how SMN and MCH should do trash damage because they are brain dead? Look at this Ninja. This was a target dummy fight for him. I don't really care if you're saying they press a lot more buttons than other jobs. So does Machinist? There is no more complexity in fights for melee DPS. There is no more difficulty. Melee DPS is just a ranged physical DPS that doesn't go on the backrow.

I'll go even further and beyond. https://xivanalysis.com/fflogs/VmgJQXdBHFbNPWcK/7 This is their week 1 clear xivanalysis. They have purposefully delayed their last buff window for the Summoner who dropped Phoenix before Ego Death and when they got the buff, the SMN went and quickened his primal summons to get Bahamut ASAP in the buff window:

https://i.imgur.com/u7Q8wHZ.png

They got the clear with 1 death. By doing that, the SMN got a final Phoenix which was a free 1300 potency oGCD. The result of them making this choice was definitely not "brain dead". They gave it a lot of thoughts and SMN truly shine on those 1/2 minutes buff windows. This shows one thing. It doesn't matter how smooth and easy a rotation is on a target dummy. What defines a big part of the complexity of a rotation is the fight design. The fight designs have been making it so friendly to melee DPS that it makes it really easy for them. People would like to make you think that MCH and SMN are brain dead. "Look at their stupid silly rotation! Mine is harder!" They definitely will omit to say that thanks to this optimization, that group cleared week 1 P8S with a death.

So, yeah, I firmly believe all casters and ranged DPS need to be uplifted to melee DPS with a 2% to 3% difference. If you feel this is wrong, you are one of the following;
- You don't raid seriously and you have no idea what you're talking about but you have the right to post your opinion here.
- You secretly hate the jobs you want to see at the bottom. This is especially true to a few Red Mage mains that are tired to always be behind SMN and they have a new bullet called "SMN is easy compared to RDM"
- You are biased toward a role. Many Melee DPS wants to remain the DPS King role.
- You have no knowledge of the actual job you are criticizing
- You are a one trick player

Take Firemage for example. He only plays RDM. He doesn't play SMN & BLM and yet he gives himself the right to say SMN/MCH is doing no damage. He has no knowledge of those jobs, he didn't even know you could work around the rotation that this week 1 group I posted did. He's very biased to be playing RDM only. I'm sorry dude, I can't take you seriously. You don't have enough experience to make such claim and while you're free to post your opinions, SE may look at them and that's dangerous. If you're looking for RDM to deal more DPS, then you should target more specific reasons why RDM is doing lower damage: raise.

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All jobs have easy rotations. The fight dictates the complexity and how you adapt the rotation to the fight. Melees aren't really struggling nowadays. I was when I was doing o12s 4 years ago.

But for this thread, OP mentioned wanting to do hardcore prog and if he wants to caster it works just fine but it's suggested to get SMN just in case. RDM do fine in prog. Raise always have value but on optimized runs right now, RDM is a dead job. BLM will be the way to go.

Yeah, sorry for turning this entire thread into a fight, guys; was just posting my thoughts on the current situation, trying to get an idea of how to proceed for hardcore content. Didn't mean to start an argument.

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Originally Posted by Travel

Yeah, sorry for turning this entire thread into a fight, guys; was just posting my thoughts on the current situation, trying to get an idea of how to proceed for hardcore content. Didn't mean to start an argument.

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I don't think anyone was trying to argue (it might have became that), it's not your fault, I think most people gave you advice on not to really worry too much, some good advice like leveling alt jobs aswell wouldn't hurt just incase checks are harsh next raid tier, obviously people disagree with balance state and stuff right now because it's a hot topic

no need to apologies either way, it's really nothing you did or said.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I might agree with his take if with melees being harder rotation wise but then Bard kinda exists and I don't know if it's me but bard generally is very hard compared to samurai, Ninja and reaper at least... I don't know I actually find bard pretty overwhelming compared to most jobs.

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Because Bard has a million, hyperbole, things to keep track off. Song cooldowns and durations, Codas, DoTs, Soul Voice meter, Burst Shot procs, Blood Letter song procs, Pitch Perfect song procs. Kinda the same with both Black Mage and Machinist. So many things to keep track off to play those two jobs optimally and perfectly to the point I stopped playing Machinist on my alt, because I wasn't having fun spending so much of my brain on keeping track of so many things, and went back to playing Red Mage because it is so much easier than Machinist. I like Machinist's aesthetic but the job is taxing to play for extended periods of time for me.