The unrewarding state of physical ranged

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Originally Posted by Payotz

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It´s all some kind of decision-making, but it´s definately more optimization than being that impactful and deep gameplay design. You just react and press the button earlier or later, but you still stand on the same spot waiting for the next mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

A physical ranged having their mobility restricted by its own kit feels terrible, and I would honestly prefer for raid mechanics themselves to restrict mobility, or outright abuse it.

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As i´ve said, not much brain in the ideas and of course those are gimmicks in first case, but it´s something more you´ve to care about or which lies in players hands next to press a button before a bar overloads or a procc is gone into nowhere. Distance based damage or that bond doesn´t restrict the mobility, it makes actually use of them. You´ve to position yourself and you have like 3 skills which need like 10-12m distance and 3 skills which need 3-5m distance. You move there, do your stuff, move back or even rotate with your skills when a boss mechanic or healer cuddling comes up. It´s not like i said "it´s that perfect idea". It´s just an example for a requirement which is similar to positionals or casting times, but which obviously needs a range class and high mobility.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I would honestly prefer them to just give back what already worked and loved rather than do something new that will actually make the role pretty much unplayable.

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Well if nobody wouldn´t have complained about old stuff, nothing would´ve changed probably. And it doesn´t matter what´s happening, someone will come and complain. Either about RNG or clipping or weaving or boring or dps or......
A lot of ppl here seem to think that BLM is "perfectly rounded". I could open a barrel about what´s actually wrong with this class so. But i don´t, because other enjoy it as it is.

Tbh, the current DNC, BRD and MCH are straight up boring to play. I personally can´t see how ppl actually enjoy it. If i play them, i´m so bored i jump and run around all day long until a new mechanic appears, meanwhile pressing my buttons and waiting for proccs. Something needs to be done and it should be a real requirement gimmick in my eyes. Nobody would even say any word again about a higher dps, if they get something to care about. And i can´t see any gimmick being "unplayable" as long as phys. range have the advantage of being ranged classes without casting times but with high mobility.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

It´s all some kind of decision-making, but it´s definately more optimization than being that impactful and deep gameplay design. You just react and press the button earlier or later, but you still stand on the same spot waiting for the next mechanic.

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Optimization is impactful and deep gameplay design. Having the extra room to actually get better at the game is depth.
Raid design does have impact on how deep the gameplay is, but typically it's only one half of the equation.
You said it yourself, you react to procs rather than rely on a reliable OGCD or GCD, and that really is decision making at its very core.
It's not something you make at the striking dummy, it's something you make in that specific moment of the fight, in that specific pull.

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You´ve to position yourself and you have like 3 skills which need like 10-12m distance and 3 skills which need 3-5m distance. You move there, do your stuff, move back or even rotate with your skills when a boss mechanic or healer cuddling comes up. It´s not like i said "it´s that perfect idea". It´s just an example for a requirement which is similar to positionals or casting times, but which obviously needs a range class and high mobility.

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And that's really an arbritary restriction that I'm talking about. Needing 10-12m distance like a SC Siege Tank regardless of raid mechanics is restricting movement. Yes, it's not the "perfect idea", it's actually a completely horrible one, and I would prefer for raid mechanics to focus ranged physicals a lot more, or have ranged physicals do more mechanics and have more responsibility so they can abuse their mobility and range. This feels a whole lot better than having their own mobility cut off because hrr drr ranged requirements. It takes a lot more skill to do a rotation when you're getting AoEs and Twisters on top of you while having to kite an add akin to E5S.

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Well if nobody wouldn´t have complained about old stuff, nothing would´ve changed probably. And it doesn´t matter what´s happening, someone will come and complain. Either about RNG or clipping or weaving or boring or dps or......

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And that's fine. That's completely fine. It just doesn't have to result in something being dumbed down or having their identity torn out of the jobs. It shouldn't have to result in raid design losing the one factor where physical ranged is actually benificial. The game thrives on criticism, it's up to the job design and raid design team to think about them and make changes according to their own judgement. If I still don't like the changes like many in this expansion (no TK Monk, MCH Rework, SCH overhaul etc...) then I make my voice heard again. We are free to argue about our opinions as much as we would like, and hopefully someone in the dev team is reading this and taking notes.

Though, I'm pretty sure nobody complained about BRD job design. Only MCH(still holding onto that hope that they revert MCH dear god)

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Tbh, the current DNC, BRD and MCH are straight up boring to play. I personally can´t see how ppl actually enjoy it. If i play them, i´m so bored i jump and run around all day long until a new mechanic appears, meanwhile pressing my buttons and waiting for proccs.

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This is the big problem with the raid design more with a little bit of job design. Since ranged physicals don't handle more mechanics that abuse their mobility, they're left without a job. It's like what if Tanks can't position the bosses anymore, or the Healers literally don't heal anything and just keep pressing Glare, the Melees just stand on one general area the whole entire raid with a boss that has no positionals, and literally every raid has a special "BLM" spot so the BLM doesn't have to adjust movements using procs and instants. That's why I really just advocate for more mechanic responsibility for ranged physical instead.

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And i can´t see any gimmick being "unplayable" as long as phys. range have the advantage of being ranged classes without casting times but with high mobility.

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And I pretty much explained in my last post why giving ranged physicals what they had last time is better than a new gimmick that may not work due to how the backend and the whole game is designed.
It's unplayable in FF14, but it's real possible in another MMO.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Though, I'm pretty sure nobody complained about BRD job design. Only MCH(still holding onto that hope that they revert MCH dear god)

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That's the one thing I was gonna say honestly... Pretty sure Stormblood Bard was one of the most well received reworks in 14's history. It was one of the most well loved jobs in the game. Shadowbringers destroyed that. It's one of the least played jobs now.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

As example, melee / caster fights are more like "20k dps start, 21k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight." You improved and this is a great feeling obviously. You can be proud of your performance and having a new color at fflogs.
Phys. range on the other hand are like "22k dps start, 22k dps improved, 22k dps mastered the fight". There is no space and no tools to improve due to missed requirements.

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That's ...nonsense?

Since you mentioned fflogs, melee/caster range from 18k-23k going from 10th to 95th percentile. Physical ranged from 17k to 21.4k. There's a reasonable variance for both depending on skill levels. I'd like to see your source that phys ranged have identical dps at all levels of experience.

Also you seem to have played nothing but monk, so I'm not sure where you're getting your insight on phys ranged?

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Originally Posted by Payotz

Optimization is impactful and deep gameplay design.

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To optimize a strategy for a fight is impactful yes. But the stuff a player can optimize with his class isn´t really much and not even forced by the game itself. There are only 2 situations where it actually matters. Log farm or maybe world first since you can´t rely on gear that much. Here we´re at BLM again, where you actually see a big gap of a standard and optimized (lucky) fight. But with all the other classes, the impact in DPS isn´t that big and it´s not that hard to adjust.
Imagine we would´ve some skilltrees to prepare for differen bosses aka burst for dps checks, better DoTs for downtimes or multiple adds/bosses.
I do get your point, but i can´t see it as unique or depth gameplay design, when nearly all subclasses play similar to each other and the whole class design is strict to make balancing easier / to hold the classes easy to cater every kind of player. It´s still MNK, BLM and RDM for me, who has atleast some uniqueness in their kit. It doesn´t matter how easy you can get used to it if train stuff at a dummy. Is just the base design which is different.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

This feels a whole lot better than having their own mobility cut off because hrr drr ranged requirements

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I get you, but isn´t that the real issue imo? The players obviously want their mobility to stay, otherwise you would still have casting times or whatever. You want that the raid is designed around that, but how? If that´s a thing, the group is forced to have that one physical range who knows what he´s doing. Not that i would be against it. I would welcome new bosses without the strict SE pattern, multiple bosses at once where a DPS has to kite one as long as the others focus on the rest, etc... but that´s obviously not possible. The casualization is real and SE is either uninspired and lazy or just follows the golden rule "don´t touch a running system". I would call it´s the 2nd part, maybe even both since every addon is going to be the same.
It´s not possible to get a real change as long as the players don´t want to give up their mobility and SE moves on with their boss and class design, especially when everything have to follow SE plans and the only thing which is up to the player, "how to spread or where to stack at any mechanics." More freedom for the player combined with some unique class requirements would make a difference. Put new boss designs on top of that and the gameplay would probably be much better and more than that "1 kill enjoyment". (e.g. Castrum before the lootpatch)

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

That's ...nonsense?

Since you mentioned fflogs, melee/caster range from 18k-23k going from 10th to 95th percentile. Physical ranged from 17k to 21.4k. There's a reasonable variance for both depending on skill levels. I'd like to see your source that phys ranged have identical dps at all levels of experience.

Also you seem to have played nothing but monk, so I'm not sure where you're getting your insight on phys ranged?

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It was an example and the most stuff on fflogs is gear related anyway. In kind of BRD and DNC you do even rely on your partymembers to run that 100% log. But overall the gap between good and bad players is on phys. range closer than on melee / caster classes.

Account spy pretty much? ;) This account is as old as the char is. I´ve other chars i main or play with friends who´re new to the game. This here was my first one and just became an alt to do raids outside of my static, to assist others statics, whatever i can do as long as loot is blocked in any tier. Just a solo char obviously to do whatever i want. And the reason why i´m here after years is, because SE finally fckd up everything with their "dumb down route". (Bosses, Tanks, MNK, Fate grind 24/7... it really needs to stop.) BLM is really the last class i would play. I hate it to play pure casters. But if SE continues with such stuff, it´s probably going to be a more enjoyment than playing tank, melee, heal, or phys. range. RIP AST with 6.0 i guess.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

To optimize a strategy for a fight is impactful yes. But the stuff a player can optimize with his class isn´t really much and not even forced by the game itself. There are only 2 situations where it actually matters. Log farm or maybe world first since you can´t rely on gear that much. Here we´re at BLM again, where you actually see a big gap of a standard and optimized (lucky) fight. But with all the other classes, the impact in DPS isn´t that big and it´s not that hard to adjust.

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But it does exist. It is impactful and deep gameplay design. Whether or not the game requires it to clear content is a different topic entirely, the most important part is that there's potential for improvement.
Again, the game is not forcing you to do positionals as a MNK either, but that doesn't mean it has no positionals. The bosses could have no positionals like Bozja, but that would not change that the job has positionals.
It's up to the player if they're gonna do positionals or not, and to that I reiterate my point that static rotations is much less decision making and more muscle memory than proc based jobs.
They both have depth, just that proc-based jobs are forced to think on the fly rather than static rotations and thus have more decision making.

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I do get your point, but i can´t see it as unique or depth gameplay design

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And this is why we can't really argue about this objectively. This is a subjective argument all in all.

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You want that the raid is designed around that, but how?

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I've been giving out examples for the past few posts now. Let me get a snippet from my original post:

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Originally Posted by Payotz

2.Bring back Mechanics that will benefit from a Ranged Physical handling it. Notable examples would be BJ/CC Superjump, O11S Panto baits, or maybe even just positioning, like painting the Siren on O6S, Taking a kind of Prey/Flare mechanic from the party, or just plain applying a heavy on an add like in T7. This will add a LOT more gameplay to Physical Ranged, add more responsibility to the phys ranged player and will also justify their mobility and a spot at the party aside from just a 1% buff that you can't control.

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If that´s a thing, the group is forced to have that one physical range who knows what he´s doing.

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And that's bad why? Physical ranged has been doing it ever since Coil up until O11S.
That demands a lot more skill for the physical ranged player because of their no positioning requirements and mobility.
Add more utility on top of that, like mitigation tools, resource tools and the role would have their depth back!
It would add a lot more gameplay and would be more preferable to gimmicky range requirements and a 1% DPS buff.

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It´s not possible to get a real change as long as the players don´t want to give up their mobility and SE moves on with their boss and class design, especially when everything have to follow SE plans and the only thing which is up to the player, "how to spread or where to stack at any mechanics."

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I've been refuting your argument for giving up mobility and you've been ignoring my points for a while now.
Removing mobility will not work for ranged physicals
You know what would work? Click Me

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Originally Posted by Payotz

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I read your stuff, imagine i´ve even liked your "click me" post after it showed up. But i´m trying to get what might be SE´s big plan. Of course a lot of stuff could and SHOULD change. As i´ve even said, i´ve no issue with more and depth or even phys. range orientated mechanics. There is no bad thing with it.

The issue is, that SE goes the easy way to balance the classes and obviously wants to offer any content for everyone. They don´t go for much unique and different gameplay anymore. They force the classes into specific roles and those roles play pretty much similar to each other. Tanks got pretty much all the same. Healer work pretty much the same. Range work pretty much the same, especially BRD/DNC. Melees work the same next to MNK positionals and NIN´s ninjutsu. Only casters are not THAT similar to each other thx to BLM design and RDM range/melee combos. Do you agree on that or do you see that big of a difference i don´t?

Keep that in mind and look forward. We´ve 4 similar tanks, so MT/OT isn´t that big of a deal anymore or that 1 tank would be better at boss X, the other at boss Y. Endwalker brings a 4th healer, which was pretty obviously. So healers are splitted in cure/shield healers. Then we get a 5th melee class on top of that. (unexpected)
This means SE wants to force those 2 tanks, 2 melee, 1 caster , 1p.r. , 1 cure and 1 shield heal raidgroups. But they still want to go the way, that it doesn´t matter which class you play.

It doesn´t make sense to come up with raids which force that any specific class has some extra mechanics if you just look at what will come and what we already have. Is obviously nothing what SE still wants. They want it to be easy, static and strictly according to their own plan. It´s up to us to force SE to give us better raids, better mechanics, better class designs and to stop the route SE is going imo. I would have like 100 idea´s to make use of the mobility of phys. range., to force the OT to be more useful than eating one TB, to go away from DPS healers to actual heal-healers, and so on. I´m fully on your side with the stuff you requested, but sadly SE is ignorant or just want to cater more players in case for more business, otherwise we wouldn´t sit here and writing about such stuff.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

That's the one thing I was gonna say honestly... Pretty sure Stormblood Bard was one of the most well received reworks in 14's history. It was one of the most well loved jobs in the game. Shadowbringers destroyed that. It's one of the least played jobs now.

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lets be honest SB and SHB BRD are pretty identical they lost MP/TP support and Foes and play somewhat the same, it is only the least played because DNC is brand new and MCH is essentially not recognized from SB MCH and is the safest non threatening job in the game with zero real concerns. Hard to compete with that

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Originally Posted by Myon88

No, in retrospect I'm actually envious there are people whose machinist experiences aren't sullied by memories of Heavensward. For many people who played it then, it's been all downhill from there.

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I hated HW's version of MCH. Got it to 60 then never touched it until it was reworked in Stormblood. It was convoluted to play in HW because of HW's version of Wildfire, the one and only ability that made the job feel absolutely vile and repugnant to me. Also hated Hot Shot uptime. (I as well hated the Gauss Barrel attachment on your gun, looked silly and dumb and killed the aesthetic of glamour sets, thank the twelve that's gone. Now all that's left is the lunchbox)

Got it to 70 sometime in Stormblood, because I was bored, hated the heat gauge balancing mechanic because it seemingly, I didn't give it a second chance as it was horrible to me, prevented you from using MCH's full toolkit on a whim and had extremely strict management. Why play MCH's complex "rotation" and do pitiful damage when you could play anything else and do more.

It's too late for this but, if Heat Blast was removed and they gave MCH cast times back on unheated Split, Slug and Clean shot, Hot Shot/Anchor Shot and Drill shot. Changed reassemble to cause the next weaponskill to be instant cast along with what it does now. Give ammo back via a Hypercharge rework and cause ammo to turn Split, Slug and Clean shot to change into their heated forms, it's too late to change their names or visuals, cause them to become instant cast and each would do exactly the same thing Heat Blast does now or increase the 1.5 sec gcd to 2.0 or 2.2 or something to slow things down a bit as you would no longer be using one button during Hypercharge but three. The heated versions of the basic combo rotation would make sense to be instant cast with all the weird gymnastics you do while the unheated versions would make sense to be "aimed" with cast times. Barrel Stabilizer would continue to make sense as your stabilizing your barrel for precision shots via Hypercharge. Cast times either being 1.5 or 2 seconds to allow ample cooldown weaving and Anchor and Drill shot having a 2.2 or 2.5 second cast time.

For flamethrower? Lol, yeah I got nothing other than changing it into Bishop Autoturret that doesn't have a battery gauge cost and when used just plops down right next to whatever enemy you targeted and does old Bishop Turret things. Would still be used on single target enemies as it would just be another free generic 60 second resourceless cooldown. (Which would add another ability to weave during your rotation without adding button bloat as Flamethrower is very likely already on your hotbar)

I personally like current MCH solely because of Heat Blast's animation and hope it isn't removed or changed, and if it must be reworked just make it another cooldown to use.