Summoner: An action or a dot?

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

If you want to get technical, Summoners are in fact -summoning- all the time in FF14, its just not something huge and flashy is all outside of trances.

Also honestly, one and done attacks are boring imo. Trances & egis are much more exciting because there's a whole ton more interactivity with them than just pushing a button and watching a fancy animation. Which also quite frankly, wouldn't work in FF14 anyway. People already complain about certain Lb3's blocking AOEs from being visible due to how grandiose their animations are(Caster LB3, AST LB3), there's no way any form on 'grandiose one and done' animation would capture the same majesty as old FF summoning without causing the same issues, meaning their 'grand attacks' would basically be on the same level as Enkindle; a small, quick animation that would be a disservice in trying to emulate old FF SMN. (which also brings up the point that part of the fun of old SMN was seeing these ridiculous 30s+ animations, where in FF14 a pack could easily be dead before such an animation could finish.)

I also found infinitely more fun with FF10's & FF12's summons (and FF13's, to an extent) than any of the old FF's purely for the same reason; having them stick around and actually feel like they're fighting with the party is much more fun personally.

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The irony is that the pets that stick around like demi bahamut/phoenix block the view more than a 5 second 1 time attack by a Summoner would. No one is asking for the 1 time attack summon to go through a 20 seconds attack, Heaven on high had the right idea; quick 3 second attack that looks great then they disappear. Of course it would be balanced so they don't cover the screen like that, it would be a smaller version and would appear more naturally on the field.
What you're describing with FFX, XII, and XIII is Beastmaster. Next time they make a FF mmo I'd really like them to release both Summoner and Beastmaster at the same time so people understand the difference. Square enix seems to be cannibalizing Beastmaster with Summoner in every FF since X for no real reason, they should separate them.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

They are all characters that are not just one job, yes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. But let's shift this a bit.

Your argument is basically that, because no character is ever a pure Summoner, there shouldn't be a pure Summoner job in XIV. Yes or no?



My point has never been "we shouldn't have Egis", so you're misunderstanding the point. The point is they should have Summons and only that. I can point at that throughout the series and it's true.

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Are you going to repeat the same pure summoner , pure summoner like a broken clock? Im saying 2 things.
1) You arbitrarily picked whats a summoner , you literally said its cause of the old games that summoner exists, and youre ignoring more than half of them, cause it doesnt fit your view.
2) FF14 summoner is a pure summoner. It removed the need for it to spec on the blm, or whm school of thought by giving it its own distinct skillset of magic. THIS is the upgrade the identity of the job needed, whether you like it or not.

You talked about how in ff3 and ffv and ff11 the summoners are pure cause they just summon, but even in those games you could and should still tie abilities and magic from other jobs. in ff 3 it was sage , in ffv any other job you wanted ,in ff11 guess what , you had subjobs that you needed to equip. Now that they gave it the spells that youd have to be on other jobs to get , now it isnt a summoner?

I think even if they changed nothing, some thematic reworking could do wonders for the Summoner fantasy, just dressing the egi's up a bit to look more akin to their true forms would help and then getting rid of Ruin and the dots and replacing them with themed abilities for each of the primal's, they can do the exact same thing but It'd just feel more Summoner'y if my attacks were coming from them more.
Using Garuda as an example: Ruin 3 is now Feather rain, same cast time, same damage only the spell comes from her not me. Ruin 2/4 Air slash/Twin gales, still instant, just comes from her. Obviously I'd like more changed but even if they did nothing gameplay wise and just this I think it would really change the feel to feel more like a Summoner and less a dot mage with pets.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Are you going to repeat the same pure summoner , pure summoner like a broken clock? Im saying 2 things.
1) You arbitrarily picked whats a summoner , you literally said its cause of the old games that summoner exists, and youre ignoring more than half of them, cause it doesnt fit your view.
2) FF14 summoner is a pure summoner. It removed the need for it to spec on the blm, or whm school of thought by giving it its own distinct skillset of magic. THIS is the upgrade the identity of the job needed, whether you like it or not.

You talked about how in ff3 and ffv and ff11 the summoners are pure cause they just summon, but even in those games you could and should still tie abilities and magic from other jobs. in ff 3 it was sage , in ffv any other job you wanted ,in ff11 guess what , you had subjobs that you needed to equip. Now that they gave it the spells that youd have to be on other jobs to get , now it isnt a summoner?

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So then, your argument is that... no jobs are pure jobs, but Summoner is the only one who has to suffer for it. :P Sheesh, at least pick a reliable stance. You're making a lot of nonsense up to try to justify this.

Here is the gist of it. Every one of your points made about Summoner apply literally to White Mage. By the logic you are using White Mage should not purely use White Magic, yet it does here. And no, Stone/Aero/Water are not qualifications for it being a hybrid job like Summoner is, there are precedents for White Mage having elements outside of Light in the past which clear that, nor is Geomancer specifically those elements. Cutting off your bad argument ahead of time. So then, we are left with why they could not do for Summoner what they did for White Mage. Which is... treat it like a proper job with its own identity instead of grafting on some bizarre alien one to it on top of Summoner. And you have yet to provide an adequate explanation for that.

Let's go through the history of the series though, since you seem intent on trying to act like you are remotely an expert on the matter. There are three broad categories as far as FFs go. Jobs, Characters, and Systems. Jobs use a Job system. This first shows up in FFI and most recently with FFXIV numerically speaking. There are a lot of variations. Characters is what it says on the box. Characters have a specific way they work, you can't majorly modify them, the big difference between this and Systems is how much of a blank slate the characters are. For instance VI straddles the line between the two, as the System it uses, magicite, is pretty important. Systems are ones where the characters are, mostly, the same. They may have minor stat differences, Limits, but usually they don't have anything beyond that. FFX is one where you could argue too that it straddles the line between System and Character, because although there is a system in place the characters starting points are defined.

In all Job System games, Summoner can be mixed and matched with another job outside of FFIII (there is possibly some other exception but I'll speak generally rather than worry about maybe some obscure instance). All jobs can be mixed and matched with other jobs, this is not something exclusive to Summoner. There isn't a "Summoners must be paired with other jobs, but White Mage gets to go home free". The one exception where you can not mix and match jobs is FFIII. In the NES version, Sages are superior to all magical options. Just as Ninjas are superior to all physical options. Sages outstat Magus and Devout, not just Summoner. It isn't a direct upgrade to Summoner any more than it is to Magus or Devout. The same argument you use against Summoner applies to the others as well. The most logical answer, especially in light of the DS remake, is that Sage is its own thing. Sages mix and match schools of magic, and is closer to an upgrade to Red Mage than it is to any of the other magic jobs.

In character based games, most characters use a mix of jobs. In FFIV, the first character based game, Cecil is a mix of Warrior and White Mage (while this is the first instance of Paladin, it was still in the process of getting defined). Edge is a Thief and a Ninja. Rosa is a White Mage and a Ranger. Rydia, whom you are trying to argue against, was a Black Mage and a Summoner. Only Kain, of the original final cast, is solely a Dragoon (though this later changes in the sequel that's a whole different can of worms). Although the side characters generally manage to be single job individuals, as they weren't the feature of the game it's hardly surprising they're... not underdeveloped per say, but certainly not as robust. In IX characters again have a mix of jobs. Steiner is a mix of Knight, Mystic Knight, Holy Knight, and Dark Knight. Amarant is a Ninja and a Monk. Eiko and Yuna, as you point out, are White Mage and Summoners. Note, again, neither of them are pure White Mages, yet White Mage is again fit to be its own thing. Zidane, Freya, Vivi, and Quistis instead get one job but expanded abilities for them (or in the case of Vivi/Quina a specific command that helps them do their thing). X is one of those ones where it's a split the difference kind of case, but as the original was specifically limited to how characters advanced and the bulk of the game was that way I'll count it here. In X, again you see characters doing rather unusual stuff. Of them the only one who really works like a pure job from previous games was Lulu, she's pretty clearly a Black Mage. Tidus is an unusual Fighter who uses Time Magic. Auron is a Samurai with Knight skills. Rikku is a Thief and a Chemist. Wakka is... arguably a Ranger, with some odd Black Magic. Kimahri is a Blue Mage/Dragoon with a flexible starting point, one could certainly make a case for him being something along the lines of a Red Mage for that. And yes, Yuna is a White Mage and a Summoner. Note again that White Mage isn't off on its own. XIII as far as numerical games go is the last one that one could argue is character based, as the characters each are unique even if they have access to all the roles, it's kind of a weird one but again I would count it. None of the characters really line up to jobs specifically though outside of weapon use so it's rather moot.

Which brings us to system based games. System games usually have a broad system that lets you develop characters in whatever ways you want. There really aren't dedicated jobs, if there were it would be under the job system category. In these games you generally still see some sort of system for Summoning, just like you see something for healing/buffing/debuffing/magic damage and so on. None of these games have a job really, the best you tend to see is some limits which maybe emulate the idea of a job, but that's about it. In VI (arguably a system-based game) there isn't really a dedicated Black/White Mage or the like, the magic system is divided entirely differently. That and magic is kind of... well, a big deal, so not exactly surprising. Not really much to say as it kind of operates in its own way.

What's the sum of all of this? That, again, the points you're levying go against most jobs depending on how you look at it. In a system game no job is represented. Summoner tends to come out ahead because it usually still gets something resembling a unique presence, but there still isn't a job system in place. In a job system game all jobs are treated the same. There isn't anything specifically saying "you must pair Summoner with something". You tend to pair jobs up in general and mix and match, because that's how it works, but that isn't specifically a Summoner issue. Which leaves character based games, which is really the only one that you have as anything resembling a saving grace. Except, again, most characters tend to be hybrids. It's not exactly uncommon for people to have a diverse array of talents. And, specifically, your point goes against White Mage just as much as Summoner. Yet of the two, Summoner is the only one clearly not working like it has in the past. White Mage fits the theme, certainly tweaked a bit to fit XIV specifically, but what happened to Summoner is entirely unrelated to that. In the end, Summoner is not in line with the series, and that's specifically the issue. Instead of trying to say it is you should just accept it isn't, because your defense of it is weak and lacking in data to support it. When you're trying to claim Sage, a job that clearly is doing its own thing, as an upgrade to Summoner alone and specifically, you're making a poor argument that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

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Whm can stand alone cause of the scale difference he has compared to summoner.
Compare Holy to alexander
Tornado to garuda
Water to Leviathan
Raise to pheonix
Same goes for blm
compare meteor to bahamut
Death to odin
thunder to ramuh
ultima to ultimate summon ( eden , knights of the round , zodiark, etc)
Not only that summoner has summons that create effects that those jobs would kill to have.
image
tri-disaster or disintegration
Sonic dive
runaway train
triple double
vanish

I... have zero idea what you're trying to argue with that. Like... that different jobs do different things? Fun? That's really moot. It has nothing to do with the argument you made.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

I... have zero idea what you're trying to argue with that. Like... that different jobs do different things? Fun? That's really moot. It has nothing to do with the argument you made.

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Why do you make me explain shit twice =.=
ok let me take everything from the start.
In your opinion this summoner isnt a summoner in line with the rest of the summoners.
Your comparison point is the times summoner was a standalone job, ff3, 5, 11, tactics , you then take the character based games , remove everything that isnt a summon and keep that as the pure summoner experience.
I disagree on you on this , cause your rule in order to work must exclude more than half the games, i instead take the fact that most of them give you more spells and tell you that summoner does more than just summon. The ff14 summoner fits inside that definition , and it is a pure summoner cause they took the spells they d usually give him ,in order to give summoner a magic repertoire of his very own, effectively splitting summoner from blm and whm which had been tied many times in the past. such as ff6 ff 9 , ff 4 , ff 3 (yes ill keep putting in sage cause he uses summons) and ff10.
You go ahead and say the same definition works on whm as well and here i tell you why it works on summoner and not whm. Summoner plays a bigger role than whm or blm, blm having an exception in ff9. In almost every game summons are different. as in espers from ff6 arent the same thing as eidolons in ff9 , summoning is something that gets rewritten depending the story. whm on the other hand doesnt have this restriction.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Why do you make me explain shit twice =.=
ok let me take everything from the start.
In your opinion this summoner isnt a summoner in line with the rest of the summoners.
Your comparison point is the times summoner was a standalone job, ff3, 5, 11, tactics

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Er... my comparison point is the history of the job in general, yes. Because even in games it's a hybrid it still has a clear representation.

And the list is a bit larger than that. You want to cite IV, IX, and X. I can cite... III, V, XI, T, TA, TA2, Dimensions, RK, likely some others. And the ones in IV, IX, and X still are clearly hybrid characters, but they do have a clear Summon versus other job aspect.

Personally when it comes to Summoner I am in agreement with the spawn for 1 quick attack. The way the incorporated it for Yuna in Dissidia 012 for example. They only spawn briefly, swipe or attack then gone. Watching my brother level Summoner and realizing that you can't even do the quests for Titan or Garuda until you have actually defeated them story wise could remain incorporated into the future expansions where you still gain traits to buff your older primal skills but defeating new ones unlock the new primal attacks/skills once you hit the level.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

I think even if they changed nothing, some thematic reworking could do wonders fro the Summoner fantasy, just dressing the egi's up a bit to look more akin to their true forms would help and then getting rid of Ruin and the dots and replacing them with themed abilities for each of the primal's, they can do the exact same thing but It'd just feel more Summoner'y if my attacks were coming from them more.
Using Garuda as an example: Ruin 3 is now Feather rain, same cast time, same damage only the spell comes from her not me. Ruin 2/4 Air slash/Twin gales, still instant, just comes from her. Obviously I'd like more changed but even if they did nothing gameplay wise and just this I think it would really change the feel to feel more like a Summoner and less a dot mage with pets.

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I agree with you wholeheartedly. Plus if they still wanna stick to egis, like you said make them look like smaller versions of actual primals. We can summon Demi-primals now. 3 expansions in and we still have egis. I mean come on. We’re not warlocks from WoW we’re summoners. I wanna feel like a summoner. I love the job. Always have but in 6.0 I truly hope they give us some love. Yes we do good damage but I love good aesthetic too. 1-50 the job is just terrible to play. Have literally no good skills. No trances. Come SE give us what we want. Where is Shiva? Leviathan? Ramuh? 3 expansions in and we still got the same ones? Really?