2.5s Recast/GCD feels wayyy too long.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

Basically there's more downtime than uptime, which is a terrible combat model imo.

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Yikes. Name a game with a good combat system where "action input" uptime supercedes downtime. Even Dynasty Warriors (on harder difficulties) requires some variety instead of constantly spamming combos, and I'm hesitant to call that "good".

Consider what you're suggesting: including FFXIV's frequently available oGCDs, you're looking at sustaining a rate of 3-4 actions per every 3 seconds over the duration of a fight. Animations become shorter and more repetitive, lag/latency-induced clipping becomes more prevalent, and job complexity is inevitably reduced to match the higher APM.

That isn't interesting gameplay. That's slow button mashing. Throw in latency and lag spikes and you get plain-old button mashing.

I'm with you on FFXIV getting a full action-RPG revamp, but since that's never going to happen, making it into a Simon-says clicker game is not an improvement.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

Hit max post limit today so I'm going to edit this one.

I started out with 2.5s GCD for the rotation, 2.5*23 = 57.5 seconds, because not everybody has 13% speed. Afterwards, I accounted for the 13% skill speed in the post and increased the action counts,, it is below the rotations. Also, I use rotation from balance discord. http://ffxivrotations.com/24az So you can see I didn't just pull it out of nowhere. The only difference between this and mine is potion usage and meditate. As for 105 vs 135 kenki, I might've made a typo putting it into the calculator. However, that 30 extra Kenki adds 1 extra attack, bumping it from 33-34. Not enough to make a massive difference in combat style.

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First, 2.5 * 24 is exactly 60 so not sure why you did 23. Second, you can't just say "oh but I don't count X Y and Z" for no reason at all. You have to take the entire package of a job. The extra actions also turn into extra Kenki, which turns into more actions.

If you have a high Skillspeed amount you should be able to get 30 GCDs in no problem per minute.. So your 23-step minute-long whateverthehell is not only missing the 30 Kenki, but also 7 more GCD's worth of Kenki (so let's assuming you finish your combo and do the others, so 5 10 5 5 10 5 15.) So 65 Kenki + 30 you miscounted, or almost an additional 4 actions. That's 11, *eleven* actions you missed per minute. That's a huge amount! You said it was 33 actions per minute, but it should be 44 -- 33.3% (hey didn't I say 30% from the start? Not bad for a cursory glance right?) more than you thought it was. That is a "massive difference in combat style."

So you talk about MOBAs a bunch. Imagine if you saw someone on a MOBA forum who used their skills in the wrong order, or who couldn't land a skillshot to save their life and that person began complaining how the game's combat sucks. He the proceeded to throw out a bunch of important-sounding numbers and grandiose statements, but upon even a moderate read you look at them and think, "What? No, crits don't work that way. DoTs don't work that way. Skillshots don't work that way! Armor doesn't work that way! Nothing this guy said has been accurate!"

Would you look at that guy and think, "man, this guy's opinion on the game's systems is super valuable! He's entirely in the right!" Or would you look at him and think, "oh man, this guy's got some wildly wrong assumptions about game mechanics. Maybe I should tell him how it is?"

Now to be helpful, even though you didn't ask and don't deserve it (maybe someone else reading this will learn from it, even if you don't):

Are you hesitating on your GCDs to hit positionals? In almost all cases just hitting the button is better than getting into position and delaying your GCD, so if you're holding off to dodge a boss's move it's usually better to go ahead and just hit it.
Are you hesitating due to a lack of confidence in your rotation? If so, the best way to practice I've found is to take a piece of paper or book and cover up your hotbars and just practice on a dummy until you can do it.
Are you using macros? If so, STOP. Macros do not queue actions in this game, so at absolute best if you use a macro you're adding your latency onto every GCD'd macro you have. Over time this results in a massive loss.
Are you hesitating to dodge boss AOEs? With a handful of exceptions where bosses continue to melt the area (the last boss of Holminster does it with the chain + conal) you can dash right in after the ground AOE disappears. Visually it'll look like you got hit, but as long as the center of your hitbox isn't in the danger area of the ground marker before it disappears you won't be hit. The same also applies to stuff like the purple markers on Titania or most Eden fights -- you won't hit an ally assuming the effect disappeared before you moved back in.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

"How much stuff you have to do in a game is not relevant to how much you have to do in a game." 'kay.

So in case you honestly don't get it and aren't just trolling me -- the complaint about the GCD stems from the belief that the game's combat is slow. The combat being slow would be because you have little input between the player and the game. The main method of input is button presses. Can we agree on this?

Unnecessary button presses, like jumping mid-combo or twitching back and forth, are technically input but don't actually result in you doing your role better. We can discard those, since you can do that in any game and they're equally pointless in all of them. What matters is button presses that do result in you doing your job better -- in the case a DPS job in FFXIV, this means doing more damage over time. Can we agree to these terms?

If you press a buff, like, say, "Ten" on Ninja, it counts as an action. Pressing the Ninjutsu button also counts as an action, as you'll throw a shuriken. While not absolutely required, following it "Ten" with "Chi" will result in two actions, with the Ninjutsu button being a third. This results in objectively more damage, and by the standards of the wider video game community, is therefore the correct way to play a DPS role. Can we agree on this, or is my arbitrary definition of "more damage" not something you agree with?

Similarly, if you press "Spinning Edge" then "Gust Slash" then "Aeolian Edge" you will do three actions and damage. However, if you press "Spinning Edge" then "Gust Slash" then "Q" or "E" or "left control stick" to move behind the enemy before then hitting "Aeolian Edge", you will do objectively do more damage, while doing it in the same amount of time. In terms of "damage per second" this results in an increase by pressing a fourth button. This is therefore considered by the wider video game community as the correct way to play a DPS role. The latter series of actions includes 33% more actions -- a significant increase.

And yeah, people do consider multi-button combos as multiple actions and not just one. It's like saying games with autocombos are somehow faster paced to play than games with manual combos. Pressing "X" 15 times in a row is objectively slower gameplay than pressing the 30-40 buttons and stick directions to manually do the exact same combo in the exact same time.

If you want to talk about the general pace of combat, as in how often the boss does actions and how often you need to break for mechanics or change up what you're doing then... sure we can have that conversation, preferably in its own thread because it has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP is talking about.

And stop with the strawman arguments, holy crap. It's embarrassing you.

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nothing is embarrassing me, you are trying to say I should be embarrassed.

the pace of combat, and the lockout between significant actions is his complaint.



the fact that some classes, at sometimes act frequently does not mean combat feels fluid or fast.

if you have 3 ogcds, that refresh every 60 seconds, that means essentially most of the time, your pace is once every 2.5 seconds, and then for a short while your pace goes up.

also, most people do not count multiple button presses to do one action as an extra action. is my apm doubled when I set my controls to activate when I press alt +1 key?

is me holding a shoulder button to activate a different action suddenly making gameplay faster?

his point is the game feels slow and stilted, you know that.

if 70% of the time I play I can only press a button once every 2.5 seconds, and 30% of the time I can press it every .5 seconds, that doesn't mean the pace of the game is fast. Basically your analysis understands pacing as the mathematical mean, when most people judge pacing by the mathematical mode. Ie, how long do I usually have to wait between actions, rather than overall, how many actions can I take in a minute.

this is why I used songs, a song isn't fast paced just because it has a drum solo at the end. Telling someone who says I hate slow songs, just wait, at the 2 minute mark, the press tons of keys in the piano solo misses the entire point of their premise.

for some classes they have enough ogcds, on short enough cooldown, that they feel fast, because it doesn't generally feel like you are waiting 2.5 seconds, on others they do feel like most of the time you are waiting.

lowering the gcd would definitely increase the pace of most classes, which is what the OP says he is looking for.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

I think you do not understand the Samurai rotation if you think 33 is the correct number. Perhaps you can do some more research on the job? There's a reason top Samurai are doing 40-ish.

And saying moving to his positionals doesn't count is like saying Kaiten doesn't count, as you're just pressing a button for more damage. What, functionally, is different between the two? You press a button, and more damage results from it. It's literally the same type of input, in the same timeframe, to get the same type of result. In fact, movement for Samurai results in more Kenki, which turns into more actions which turns into more DPS. For Samurai, positionals make for faster combat than even Kaiten!

I would have given you some tips but, y'know, you hid your logs. This leads me to believe you just want to complain more than you want to understand or improve. Which is fine, I guess. You can yell at a wall though and be just as well-off for it.

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the reason people don't count movements is because this is a comparitive thing, if you count movements here, then you count it all other games, and it still feels slow by comparison.

the other thing here, is his logs might show him how he can improve at this system, but it generally doesn't change the pace of the game. even if he is pressing them at the wrong times dps wise, or has crappy gear, or misses 2 gcds per minute, that doesn't change the overall pace of the game. His goal isn't simply to press 55 buttons in a minute, his goal would probably be to have there be 1 second between button presses the majority of the time he plays.(just an example). This is why speaks about the gcd instead of asking for more 60 second recast ogcds. Having a 8 second span of time where he presses 16 buttons might feel awesome, but he will still feel the game is slow the other 52 seconds out of the minute.

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Originally Posted by Physic

the reason people don't count movements is because this is a comparitive thing, if you count movements here, then you count it all other games

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There hasn't been positionals in WoW in like a decade. You are deliberately misinterpreting things. I'm done talking to you.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

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23 because I thought Midare took longer than 2.5s. I don't use macros. Sure my rotation wasn't on par when I just started lvling, however now it's much better. As I said before my logs on those two fights were bad because I never done it before and was just winging it. My play isn't perfect, nor do I do perfectly in every fight, however, I do good enough once a while to know that the combat is very meh and slow paced without a natural course of flow. I don't need to be top 10 ranked to know that. I will momentarily unhide my logs, however I hide them because privacy, simple as that, why should I display my information to everybody? I'm not a politician.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

23 because I thought Midare took longer than 2.5s. I don't use macros. Sure my rotation wasn't on par when I just started lvling, however now it's much better. As I said before my logs on those two fights were bad because I never done it before and was just winging it. My play isn't perfect, nor do I do perfectly in every fight, however, I do good enough once a while to know that the combat is very meh and slow paced without a natural course of flow. I don't need to be top 10 ranked to know that. I will momentarily unhide my logs, however I hide them because privacy, simple as that, why should I display my information to everybody? I'm not a politician.

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[Senator Armstrong intensifies] Am I getting through to him?

The reason I pointed to your logs is that, from as far as I can tell your complaint is that the Samurai rotation is slow and has no smooth flow to it. However, few people share this complaint (about Samurai anyway), and the job itself is fairly fast, even compared to its contemporaries in WoW. So the natural response is to see if something is off with the playstyle -- I've had people tell me Black Mage sucks and is boring to play only to see their playstyle is "Fire III -> Blizzard III -> repeat." Your rotation isn't as much of a comedic mess as that, but it does seem to have the same problem I see time and time again with people in melee roles -- they're simply not pushing enough buttons fast enough. Compound that core issue with the fact your complaints were that the rotation is slow and, well, it seemed like a very easy-to-fix problem. Just play faster and it's entirely possible that the gameplay won't feel as slow.

Part of the problem, I think, is your current experience is with entry-level stuff and you're a bit of an MMO vet. The current Extreme primals are a joke and there's a lot of time during them where nothing is happening. Even the normal raids regularly have people just standing there. Frankly, the jobs aren't super well-suited to easy content. It's actually one of the main flaws I have with this game -- low level gameplay is boring for anyone who's played an MMO before.

Nobody is expecting you to be in the top 10, but looking to those in the top 10 is a great way to learn. You can see what they're doing that you're not, and see if mimicking them can lead to improvement.

Also, hiding your personal information is like, the most politician-like thing you can possibly do. Hide those skeletons in that closet!

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Are you hesitating due to a lack of confidence in your rotation? If so, the best way to practice I've found is to take a piece of paper or book and cover up your hotbars and just practice on a dummy until you can do it.

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You can just create a macro for hiding and showing your skillbars with "/hotbar display [Number]" :)

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Originally Posted by Xyr

Out of all the MMORPG(s) I've played(WoW, Black Desert, Tera, ESO, Blade and Soul, Guild Wars 2, and FFXIV), FFXIV has the longest GCD and the most clunky combat. I don't know what was the design intent behind such a long recast time? Have you guys ever been stunned for 2.5s during combat? It feels like 2 hours. That's how it feels to sit there waiting for that 2.5s every skill. Even stacking Skill Speed + 13% from my buff only reduce it to 2seconds.

IMO, in terms of content, FFXIV is only behind WoW. In terms of graphics, it is only behind Black Desert, but in terms of combat it's really near last out of all the popular MMOs. FFXIII-3 and FFXV both had great and fluid combat, so why can't FFXIV after numerous expansions?

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Here is this post again. So here we go! First You don’t explain what “clunky” combat is. (I hate when ppl say that, the combat is very smooth) Your numbers don’t make since ether. A quick google search and you can find a interview with yoshi p talking about the GCD. Basically the devs said they want every skill you cast to mean something and not button mash. A 1.5 GCD doesn’t allow for a few things like spell animations, difficult raid mechanics. And melee would never move. Sorry but your post is dumb

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Originally Posted by Powercow

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No, faster raid mechanics don't have anything to do with it. Simple example, BDO has amazing combat that flows very well, yet there's no dungeons or raids. You don't need difficult bosses to know whether the combat is good or bad. I know even when I do nearly perfect on my rotation that the playstyle is not very fast, every action doesn't feel like it leads to the next naturally other than that the next skill lights up. As for weaving, the amount of extra skills are very limited by the Kenki, not to mention the idea of "weaving" itself is an unnatural concept. It's basically "here, while you are waiting for your combos to come up, use this completely unrelated skill as filler.

It's essentially watching a TV show and every 3 episodes, one episode is a filler, it has nothing to do with the plot whatsoever and is only there to fill the timeslot.

As for the thing about politicians. I completely disagree. People don't have to show others their taxes, they don't have to show others their income, they don't even need to show others their birthday. SE doesn't show FFXIV subscription numbers. Everything is private, and for a good reason. What does it mean when they don't show such information? Absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by Tryzn

Here is this post again. So here we go! First You don’t explain what “clunky” combat is. (I hate when ppl say that, the combat is very smooth) Your numbers don’t make since ether. A quick google search and you can find a interview with yoshi p talking about the GCD. Basically the devs said they want every skill you cast to mean something and not button mash. A 1.5 GCD doesn’t allow for a few things like spell animations, difficult raid mechanics. And melee would never move. Sorry but your post is dumb

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Clunky combat, one, it's slow paced, two each action seems like an individual action of its own, it doesn't direct into the next action or make it feel like they are connected to each other. Their animations don't connect with each other. Imagine hitting a punching bag, you punch it with your right-hand, now there are many actions that would flow rather nicely, since your lefthand is pulled back, it is in position to strike, or you could kick with the leg that is positioned well. However, instead of striking with any bodypart that has good momentum, you instead extend your chest and strike them with it. It does not make sense, and there's no natural flow. That's how ffxiv combat feels. The only thing that make those skills connected is a light that lights up saying "hey, this button is the next combo." Every skill is going to matter as long as they're high potency, mashing or not has no relevance.


And saying that low gcd doesn't allow for animation or raid mechanics is just bad design.