Can we remove Tank Stance?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Tanks always being in DD mode with cooldown duration based tank stance might work, it's basically how everyone wants their tank to play outside of progression really crazy content (of course the change would mean new content would need to be designed with that change, and old content you can just overgear to compensate for duration based tank stancing). Also now that it's duration based remove the damage down.

Still think each tank having a more unique stance system would be fun, but am worried it would lead to certain boss mechanics heavily biased to certain stance management systems.

I'm fine with stance dancing but the dance is relatively minimal except when you're under-geared or really confused/new to a content lol. I guess it's nice when you get a healer who doesn't want to heal, then you just go the whole dungeon in can't touch this mode.

Anyways I believe if SE feels uncomfortable having blood magic, like they did with dark knight, where you sacrifice health to do more damage then tank's stance system should also cause them to feel uncomfortable. They've also said they don't like hurting your own stats sort of abilities, which again tank system is. You take a huge hit to your eHP (effective hp) when you switch out of tank stance, but you take a huge hit to damage when you enter tank stance (on top of the fact that you're losing the damage stance buff).

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Eh I like being a Tank Tank not a low DPS thing that was never meant to be DPS. So I use Tank stance and Meld for tenacity(gasp) Then again I just run DF dungeons! Sometimes I like to just hold on to all the mobs and make them beat on me! For me that's as fun as melting them as DPS.

One thing I have yet to get used to is the feeling of some players ( not you Shougun!) That you must be a terrible tank if you use tank stance.

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Originally Posted by shao32

I don't consider this is the place to discuss this, but we'll, as my experience with my co-tank with is WAR we don't see any of the problems you are saying in any part of the fight, there is a plenty time and space to land a inner beast if you need it, I don't see the whole party have to adjust on hello world unless you are doing some crazy positionating strat, I even revised some of the down vids and guides with WAR pov and in all of then they can reach the boss just fine, except when they have to place the huge aoe and that one don't do much damage.

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Well, this is a discussion about tank stance, so..

Nope, just the standard unreal strat. If you learn it a different way then perhaps there is no adjustment needed, but the standard strat - yes, the party will have to adjust in some way so they don't get clipped by the aoe. But all that's beside the point. As I mentioned, the main factor is DRK and PLD do not have to switch to tank stance to mitigate it since they always have access to Sheltron or TBN. I'm also not discounting the possibility of a better CD rotation, but it seemed best to me to rotate vengeance and rampart on the scripted busters since they're consistently timed, and save defiance/IB for the random target busters. (defiance alone is *enough* to survive - with equilibrium to help get back up - but IB helps if you can). It's just a matter of not wanting to completely shaft my healers. But to each his own.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Eh. Just give them the damage. Everyone wants to be a DPS now a days anyway.

Me myself I don't like to play tanks not because of the damage but because of the "lead" of the party thing.

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Give how much damage? If you are saying give Tanks the same damage as DPS, then what is even the point of having DPS jobs then when DPS could go into a dungeon as a tank and have the extra defence and HP. Only thing to preventing 3 Tanks 1 healer in a dungeon is DF which you can get around with a full premade party.

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Originally Posted by Nyvara

Eh I like being a Tank Tank not a low DPS thing that was never meant to be DPS. So I use Tank stance and Meld for tenacity(gasp) Then again I just run DF dungeons! Sometimes I like to just hold on to all the mobs and make them beat on me! For me that's as fun as melting them as DPS.

One thing I have yet to get used to is the feeling of some players ( not you Shougun!) That you must be a terrible tank if you use tank stance.

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I understand the feeling, many healers have/had that issue as well and with the clunkyness that was cleric stance it was a headache for many (not all) players. I mean the good news though is tanks are pretty tanky even outside of tank stance, and with the tank stance being duration (or some mechanic base) while DD is just baseline mode now that it would help many players learn cooldown rotations. Unfortunately it wont be possible to remove the "tanks need to DD" concept unless they just butcher that aspect of the job, which would be really rough when soloing and make many DD-warriors quit the job and maybe the game lol.

Also if DD-baseline becomes true then it might be interesting to see vitality or other defense stats (tenacity) increase your damage while tank stance is up (remembering DD mode is always on now, even if you're in tank mode - and tank mode doesn't reduce damage). Would be nice to see added value to other stats besides that "one materia" (whatever it may be) that you need to stack.

As long as great tanks can't compete too closely with great DD then they wont replace DD even if tanks get a damage buff from this change (talking PF, with enrage mechanics that require the level of damage DD offer- obviously players don't get a choice if using DF lol).

For your wondering on why people begrudge tanks that want to tank is why I thought it might be better that at least one tank job's stance style is baseline DD and goes into tank mode, in such a way it's always rewarded to be a tank and never punished not to be :p. I feel sad that many players feel this, myself included, but I just play the way that seems to be the smoothest for the group (sometimes that's pure tank mode, most of the time it's a mix).

Wanted to add thanks for being clear you didnt mean me :). Personally have never minded a tank staying in tank stance but really as long as we're clearing things within a reasonable time frame I don't mind much, like if a healer doesn't want to DD heavily (reasonable= not the whole 90 minutes please lol). Suggestion wasn't based off trying to detank a tank but that we'll never be able to escape the expectation that tanks should DD unless their DD potential is taken away which wont happen - so rather I was trying to suggest that tank stance is always a positive (like casting rampart might be seen as, vs casting a spell that debilitates your damage capacity).

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

Give how much damage? If you are saying give Tanks the same damage as DPS, then what is even the point of having DPS jobs then when DPS could go into a dungeon as a tank and have the extra defence and HP. Only thing to preventing 3 Tanks 1 healer in a dungeon is DF which you can get around with a full premade party.

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I meant give them their DPS that they normally have outside of tank stance while in tank stance. IE remove the damage penalty. That's if they removed tank stance or w/e... but I'm over the bad tanks I had the last few days, so... I could care less what they do to tanks now? lol. (Sorry)

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Well, this is a discussion about tank stance, so..

Nope, just the standard unreal strat. If you learn it a different way then perhaps there is no adjustment needed, but the standard strat - yes, the party will have to adjust in some way so they don't get clipped by the aoe. But all that's beside the point. As I mentioned, the main factor is DRK and PLD do not have to switch to tank stance to mitigate it since they always have access to Sheltron or TBN. I'm also not discounting the possibility of a better CD rotation, but it seemed best to me to rotate vengeance and rampart on the scripted busters since they're consistently timed, and save defiance/IB for the random target busters. (defiance alone is *enough* to survive - with equilibrium to help get back up - but IB helps if you can). It's just a matter of not wanting to completely shaft my healers. But to each his own.

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well then is more a problem of you data center duty finder more that WAR problems against the fight, and as you say since you are punished by that strat and you can't reach the boss you lose nothing by switching to defiance a second since when you can hit the boss again you will have deliverance ready so you really have options, about the other is you own preference and its ok i don't say nothing against that but dosen't mean there are other ways more effective to dealt with it, you just have to adjust more but thats what we do all.

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Originally Posted by shao32

well then is more a problem of you data center duty finder more that WAR problems against the fight, and as you say since you are punished by that strat and you can't reach the boss you lose nothing by switching to defiance a second since when you can hit the boss again you will have deliverance ready so you really have options, about the other is you own preference and its ok i don't say nothing against that but dosen't mean there are other ways more effective to dealt with it, you just have to adjust more but thats what we do all.

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Yea, we've cleared 5 times but still a bit sketchy imo so I play it safe more often than not. I suppose there is a 6-second window before short stack explodes so it may be possible to run in and back out before it explodes if I really wanted to get IB up.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Been in a few parties over the last few days where tanks weren't using their tank stance, were loosing hate, and dying without the damage resistance.

Could we just remove the stance and give them the damage resistance and enmity generation innately?

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You know if they did this, they would nerf tank DPS to compensate. They'd get something like healer's cleric stance that DPS stance becomes a 30 second buff with a 180 sec cooldown.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You know if they did this, they would nerf tank DPS to compensate. They'd get something like healer's cleric stance that DPS stance becomes a 30 second buff with a 180 sec cooldown.

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I would love to see this done to tank stance for DRK and PLD.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

the paladin will probably have a rework because of the merge between tp and mp... some skill loose them interest with this change or some tactic will not be used anymore, like the fact to empty your mp for use the spell of damage.

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If that were to happen, then buff Requiescat to remove MP costs of spells for the duration of the buff since its duration is already intended to line up with doing enough spell casts to empty your MP. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Do you want Warrior mains to uninstall? Because that's how you get Warrior mains to uninstall. 15 second CDs on our best gauge dumps and abilities. What a joke.

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15 seconds factors in the amount of time to do both a Storm's Eye combo and a Storm's Path combo with no skill speed, so skill speed would shorten that 15 second CD, meaning that there'd be little change to how Warrior behaves now in regard to dps output.

Also, if it made Warrior mains want to uninstall, then that just means they shouldn't have been be tanking anyway, which is all the more reason why an adjustment like that should be promoted. At the end of the day, a tank is and should be a tank, and the changes I suggested promote tanks fulfilling their intended role rather than being the dps that holds threat.