Large pulls VS Small pulls... in leveling dungeons?

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

This is what I've been finding as well. I made it through the MSQ during that first week of early access, and even on my first runs, the tanks were doing huge pulls. I've had only one tank ask what type of pulls I am comfortable with. Even now, sitting at i309, there are times that I just can't keep the tank alive regardless of what I do.

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There's a reason I did the MSQ with a DRK in my FC rather than queue for it solo and be at the whim of DF. :P

Whenever I tank, if I'm with a healer I know I will always do large pulls if I know they can handle it.

If it's with complete strangers, I tend to do the first pull as a stress test of sorts, and pull two groups. If things go super easy, will do larger. If it's okay, will keep that way. And if it goes to sh*t...small pulls from there on out.

Just need to read your party, and see how they are with the pulls as you go.

I'm with the OP on the first time in a dungeon and only doing small pulls to learn it(such as what monsters have skills that should be stunned).

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I don't do large pulls in leveling dungeons. If the party doesn't like it, they can kick me.

Spoiler: I've never been kicked for pulling small in leveling dungeons, HW or SB. I generally get one to three comms.

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Probably because a lot of players who aren't exceedingly vocal would actually prefer to see the dungeon instead of run through it like a loon.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

To make myself clear I do not expect tanks to auto large-pull by default. I've been through enough healers leveling DRK to understand how deterring it can be when you constantly die to no fault of your own.

But please, as a healer, if I ask for larger pulls can you attempt to make the effort? I've had tanks tell me "ok but don't expect much!" or "I'll do my best but I'm not use to it." That's okay! I will take the blame if things go wrong, and worst comes we can slow down if need be.

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Ask nicely and you may get what you want. Though often the tone of voice is more of "ugh this is taking so long"

Pretty much everyone has agreed that two groups is what healers can (always if not minimum geared) handle. If the tank and the healer are maximum geared then they probably can get away with more.

I got used to the big pulls from earlier in ARR's life and thus I have a technique for that on WHM, but trying to play Paladin I don't know some of these guys managed to survive longer than the time Hallowed Ground gives them. It buys you just enough time for the healer to cast benediction if you over do it, but you don't get to do that with every pull since it has a 3 minute cooldown.

On the other hand, the running theme in both healer and tanking circles is that nobody actually likes big pulls. Just two consecutive pulls is fine with pretty much everyone, but pulling all the way to an obstacle without something like the vines in Amdapor Keep (Hard) or the AOE's in Keeper of the Lake to invoke a debuff/damage seems to be a suicide run unless the Tank and Healer regular play together.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

That's a pretty poor attitude. The tank may not be comfortable with it....

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I've never understood this line of thought. Tanks are by far the least important component to the success of a pull.

IMO, large pulls are a bad idea in most instances right now. Not all; there are exceptions, but in most 51+ dungeons that I've run, when tanks try to mass pull it ends in trouble, or at the very least a large amount of stress.

Tanks are tending to be squishy now on large pulls, so I'm usually in panic mode trying to keep them upright (I've had zero problems with tanks doing small pulls). When I play BRD, I've lost or had nerfed most of my AoEs, so it's not like I'm more effective as DPS on large pulls than small. Flaming Arrow and Wide Volley are gone, Quick Nock sucks now except on low HP trash, and I can hardly spam Rain of Death.

If you pull small it allows the healer (and this is coming from a healer) to contribute to the DPS. If you pull large, the healer is doing nothing but spamming heals, and even then may need a SMN or RDM to help bail him out.

IMO, the changes they made to tanks (such as removing some cross class skills, changing the way the stats work), makes large pulling prohibitive in most, but not all, situations right now. I'm at the point where I don't even want to run roulette on AST or WHM unless I'm with friends, because it's too stressful.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

IMO, large pulls are a bad idea in most instances right now. Not all; there are exceptions, but in most 51+ dungeons that I've run, when tanks try to mass pull it ends in trouble, or at the very least a large amount of stress.

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It's not just newer dungeons. Have you gotten Aurum Vale lately? I've had that one a couple times. You can tell it's going to be a good run if the tank isn't flattened (multiple times) in the first area.

Twice, actually. Once was today, in fact. And yeah, the first room was a problem. I mean, it's always been difficult, but now it's really difficult.

IMO, if you're a DPS consistently having to drop what they're doing to help the healer help the tank survive every pull, as well-intentioned as you might be, you should just stop. The tank surviving these encounters is only going to have him think that what he's doing is okay. Sometimes only a good death or two is enough to teach them that they're overdoing it. (That, or they just ragequit after one wipe... which is probably what happens more often nowadays)

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

IMO, if you're a DPS consistently having to drop what they're doing to help the healer help the tank survive every pull, as well-intentioned as you might be, you should just stop. The tank surviving these encounters is only going to have him think that what he's doing is okay. Sometimes only a good death or two is enough to teach them that they're overdoing it. (That, or they just ragequit after one wipe... which is probably what happens more often nowadays)

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Unless you are SCH, there are very few pulls a reasonable healer cannot keep a tank alive through.

That said, if the tank is making you uncomfortable, say so. I have found most tanks to be rather reasonable, or at least willing to go GIANT PULL -> Smaller pull to let me get my oGCD's back.