Ifirit, how it could have been done better.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Yoshi-P says he wants crafted items to be the best so crafters are needed.
Players want the drops they worked so hard for to actually be better than some cheaply made crafted item with 1 materia on it.
Ifirit drops simply piss players off to see items going to the ground.

Solution
Make the drop the HORN, and have crafters make the weapons!
So simple.

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I disapprove, I'm not being at the mercy of crafters anymore than what I can make for myself. As a crafter myself I would approve of it in concept, but not in this regards to situations like this, it's putting the community right at the mercy of people who think they're "doing hard work and should be properly compensated for it."

The economy is bad enough as is.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Yoshi-P says he wants crafted items to be the best so crafters are needed.
Players want the drops they worked so hard for to actually be better than some cheaply made crafted item with 1 materia on it.
Ifirit drops simply piss players off to see items going to the ground.

Solution
Make the drop the HORN, and have crafters make the weapons!
So simple.

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I strongly support this idea, but with a caveat:

First, a system needs to be put in place where DoH can craft items or attach materia using mats carried by another player in a special bazaar-like window (similar to how repairing works now).

In this way, people can own rare-ex materials (like Ifrit's horn) and have them crafted into items without disrupting the reward system from NM battles. A system like this would serve the additional role of keeping crafters more involved in the mainstream of the game as well as allowing players to have items crafted by strangers without the fear of the mats or final result being stolen.

The only downside to this is the fact that crafters might be able to grief by purposely failing a synth. But a simple approval window and the offering of a reward would solve most of these problems.

I read all of this and my head is spinning. The reason Ifrit drops need to stay U/U is simple: It shows that you've downed Ifrit enough times to acquire it. It is both a status symbol and (for most classes) an excellent weapon.

As for the current Ifrit loot system: It sucks. Too many RNGs in play, so it pleases most of the people most of the time, while leaving others screwed and bitter. A simple solution is giving the party leader the option of setting a loot system. He can choose Master Looter or Need or Greed. The game would need to display the current loot system upon joining the party, and only allow changing it when not engaged in a battle or instance. This is the best of both worlds.

Also, Need or Greed itself could have 2 settings: NoG: Current Class and NoG: All Classes, which should be self-explanatory.

Please let me know if the loot system I just described would not solve the problems people are experiencing while preventing new ones.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

What exactly "sucks" about it, that non-endgame players can buy the loot? That has got to be the silliest excuse I have ever heard. So what if they do? How does that affect you? No one requires you to go buy it on the MW, you can get it through content you enjoy and so they can they.

Why do you have to dictate to everyone how they progress through the game and obtain rewards?

Furthermore, since you hopefully realize that the majority of best in slot gear is slotted crafted gear anyways then you know that in order to have the best gear in the game you do have to buy it.

If we had craftable and sellable HNM drops back, then at least people in endgame would have an enjoyable option to make gil.

As it is right now this is Craft Fantasy XIV, crafting is the best way to get gil and the only way to get the best items (which are all sellable/tradeable/craftable).

In FFXI I farmed NM and HNM for gil because I don't enjoy crafting, why can't I have that option here? How does it harm you exactly?

If other people like to craft, or farm sheep in Coerthas, or do any number of things for gil to buy items me and my LS can kill which they can't then why shouldn't we able to translate our hard work into gil by trading those mats or crafted items to them?

Do you have any argument that isn't built in some absurd sense of elitism or complete misunderstanding of how this game even works?

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You've been getting solid arguments against the proposal you are supporting, but you've been blinded by your obviously passionate hate for elitism.

However, I'll bite.

Currently, as confirmed by Yoshi-P, the gear hierarchy is as follows:

Multi-melded crafted gear > U/U Raid/Instance gear > single-melded/unmelded crafted gear.

As you so clearly put, the way to obtain the best gear in the game already comes through the efforts of gather and craft classes - relying more heavily on the latter. Therefore, to form a balance, there also needs to be gear only obtainable through battle content, and that gear has to be very good in order to drive people to do it.

Currently, there is at the very least that balance. What Akuun is suggesting destroys this balance and empowers crafting classes even more, while making battle classes essentially into a DoL. Instead of using a pickaxe or a hatchet, we're using tools of war to farm mats for crafters yet again. This, I'm afraid, is no solution at all.

Would I like to see content that involves dropping of parts to be made into rare gear? Sure! It was great. They can put more open world content that involves killing NMs or such and incapacitating for drops and using those to make green gear. Such gear (see Silver Tricorne) could also be melded and it would be yet another fun form of content.

The point is, there needs to exist the currently DoW access only rare loot that we have now.

The issue isn't that DoW do not need crafters to get their Ifrit weapons now - which is what Akuun's idea attempts to tackle. The issue is the double RNG, which we already know is temporary in favor of a new looting system SE is designing.

Again, you've already said that the best gear comes from crafting. On top of that you are supporting an idea that makes the 2nd best tier of gear come from crafting as well. What this tells me is you are simply expressing your rage over the cards Lady Luck has dealt you, and simply opting for a system where you can have full control over who gets what while desperately trying to justify the validity of the balance of such a system.

The Ifrit weapons are strong. They are desirable even over double melded weapons for DoW at the moment. Considering the % chance of triple+ melding a weapon with high tier materia, the rarity of these weapons dropping is perfectly sensible.

The problem is, and always has been, the rage induced by seeing a duplicate you get go to waste when someone in the party could use it. We can all agree on that.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

Instead of a crafting recipe, I would propose setting up an NPC.

Ifrit would no longer drop weapons, but a key item.

You would take this key item to the NPC, and the NPC would "craft" it into any of one the "Ifrit Weapons" you would desire, avoiding the whole "market forces" problem that a recipe would have.

This way, there would be a lot less waste, and it would be up to the person with the random drop to get a weapon they'd find useful. There would be no requirement for need, greed, evil deeds, whatever.

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This would be a good solution to the current Ifrit loot problem. There's already a similar system set up in place for the faction leves and their runestone drops, so I can't see how this couldn't be easily implemented. Add some lore to why this NPC is capable of turning them into weapons and bam, problem solved. Or, obviously, as Murugan pointed out, just make it drop in the regular friggin loot list in the first place so you can give it to the party member that ACTUALLY needs it.

Also, I've been following your posts for awhile, and you make some of the most succint, straight to the point, yet well thought out posts ever. I saw your posts as you continuously fended off the trolls who were arguing against the reduced subscription rate in that other thread; people tried to argue against you using Walls of Text to no avail. You gotta teach me where you learn to write like that.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Okay, well, it seems like there's one main question we need to ask: Do we want the best gear to come from crafting or from raiding?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Both.


(damn this character limit)

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That's also what I was thinking. Why does it have to be black and white? Why can't the best gear come from BOTH crafting and raiding so those who choose to go the DoW-only route or the DoH-only route don't get excluded? That would solve the conundrum Viridiana is posing.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Heehaww (click blue arrow for details)

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I agree with Noctis, this hits the nail directly on the head... the coffin is closed.

/thread

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

You've been getting solid arguments against the proposal you are supporting, but you've been blinded by your obviously passionate hate for elitism.

However, I'll bite.

Currently, as confirmed by Yoshi-P, the gear hierarchy is as follows:

Multi-melded crafted gear > U/U Raid/Instance gear > single-melded/unmelded crafted gear.

As you so clearly put, the way to obtain the best gear in the game already comes through the efforts of gather and craft classes - relying more heavily on the latter. Therefore, to form a balance, there also needs to be gear only obtainable through battle content, and that gear has to be very good in order to drive people to do it.
Currently, there is at the very least that balance. What Akuun is suggesting destroys this balance and empowers crafting classes even more, while making battle classes essentially into a DoL. Instead of using a pickaxe or a hatchet, we're using tools of war to farm mats for crafters yet again. This, I'm afraid, is no solution at all.

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What? So if items earned in battle content can be used in crafting that content is the same as mining? I'm sorry but that is pretty ridiculous right there.

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Would I like to see content that involves dropping of parts to be made into rare gear? Sure! It was great. They can put more open world content that involves killing NMs or such and incapacitating for drops and using those to make green gear. Such gear (see Silver Tricorne) could also be melded and it would be yet another fun form of content.

The point is, there needs to exist the currently DoW access only rare loot that we have now.

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So you are okay with it, but you aren't? That is a big departure from your original "it sucks" response. I don't think anyone ever said anything about eliminating unique items completely (though I wouldn't mind that). Why do you stipulate that it has to be open world?

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The issue isn't that DoW do not need crafters to get their Ifrit weapons now - which is what Akuun's idea attempts to tackle. The issue is the double RNG, which we already know is temporary in favor of a new looting system SE is designing.

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Akuun's idea addresses the fact that they are designing battle content with only a few useful items due to the strength of Materia. Being able to meld materia makes any stat gains outside of those stats which cannot be increased by Materia (such as weapon damage, or slots which cannot be affected by specific types of Materia).

Much of the set pieces from strongholds and some of the Ifrit weapons are severely underpowered compared to crafted drops. This could be balanced better in the future, and I'm personally fine with having some unique drops which have these special or hard to get stats (due to slot limitation). I just don't want drops to be exclusively... exclusive. As it needlessly cuts off an entire aspect of endgame.

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Again, you've already said that the best gear comes from crafting. On top of that you are supporting an idea that makes the 2nd best tier of gear come from crafting as well. What this tells me is you are simply expressing your rage over the cards Lady Luck has dealt you, and simply opting for a system where you can have full control over who gets what while desperately trying to justify the validity of the balance of such a system.

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Right now the best in game items come from stuff like cobalt ignots, and mid level sheep's skin. That is absurd.


I do feel that the absolute best items in the game should be crafted from endgame drops. Why shouldn't they? It ties all disciples together and represents the most effort for a reward, so therefore it should be the best. Like abjurations once were in FFXI, this system worked and no one has to try that "desperately" to see that.

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The Ifrit weapons are strong. They are desirable even over double melded weapons for DoW at the moment. Considering the % chance of triple+ melding a weapon with high tier materia, the rarity of these weapons dropping is perfectly sensible.

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The rarity was never an issue, nor has anyone in this thread ever said it was.

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The problem is, and always has been, the rage induced by seeing a duplicate you get go to waste when someone in the party could use it. We can all agree on that.

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I do agree with that, but I also think that the whole "spiritbound" or "unique" movement in MMO's was pretty stupid and pointless. It was a ploy by developers to reduce the number of items in circulation force more people to farm content repeatedly, and curb heavy monopolization (which I'll admit I was guilty of as an HNM farmer). Still no sense of accomplishment from content in FFXI which had tradeable items was harmed by those items being tradeable. Monopolization (which was a problem both for sellable and rare/ex gear) was solved through instance options for many of the most heavily camped items. Items are always less rare the longer content has been out, with experience and solid strategies more people can defeat them whether they are unique or tradeable the rarity decreases with time. Making them sellable might cause a few more people to get them after a point where the price is no longer prohibitive, however that is already counterbalanced by the challenge and effort required in getting it which determines its availability as the price drops.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

wall of text

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I had every intention of replying to continue the discussion, but then I realized half of your responses to my post were either without support, or showed complete misunderstanding and/or ignorance of the point I was arriving at.

Essentially, you haven't said anything that addresses my reasoning behind disagreeing with Akuun's idea. You're welcome to reread my post and try again.

The only reason i find is that you can sell gear from NM's HNM's etc, that are open world the RMT's will be camping those at all times not letting people have a chance to beat the NM, i remember having those issues back in XI, if they give gear just by killing the NM, dungeon boss, things will be a little bit like WoW (was not bad at the beginning), where after beating the dungeon again and again you would end up having the item without achievement, the things got worst once they gave seals to purchase gear that you earned after beating a dungeon this time people just needed to spam the same dungeons to be able in a few days to have a pseudo last tier gear, in either of those 2 options i dont see any crafter or DoL involved.

What im saying is that would be better if you get certain mats from NM's, dungeon bosses, altought is a fantasy game it sounds more logic to get horns, claws, teeth, skin, whatever than a weapon or armor directly, well in some cases where you kill a humanoid boss that has a weapon, well maybe then you get the weapon or a broken weapon that you need to restore to get that ubber weapon.

I prefer having a system that involves more diciplines to make it more immersive (not that you need to craft it yourself) and when you finally achieve something have the joy to last a lot longer, right now the road they took is treating gear like whores, everytime a patch is released you get better and prettier gear, so you end up trowing the gear that was difficult to obtain a lot more often, what would work better in my op. would be that get the gear from mats as i said and some be rare/ex so you dont end up just farming (of course not every gear should be like this), make it so you need a few more items like a recipe make a tweak to the craft system where you can craft without trading mats like the repair system to get your gear.

And make good gear that last a whole expansion time, maybe that a few items may survive expansions, you might understand how much time im talking about, so new/veteran players may achieve for something for some time.